Hydaelyn Role-Players
Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement (/showthread.php?tid=10492)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Enteris - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 09:15 AM)Gaspard Wrote: Though I've seen it also abused actually. People who take any form of criticism as direct 'Elitism' because, no, you can't ride the last unicorn from middle-earth transposed into FFXIV, call it Pikachu and ram the all-spark into it's chest.

And if I would be labeled an elitist for keeping that view myself, then I wear the title proudly.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Warren Castille - 03-09-2015

Elitism-as-deflection is my favorite thing, probably due to the holdover from FFXI. To define it, that's when anything you say is met with your opinion/advice/suggestion being dismissed because you are an elitist. Things like "Hey, have you tried Heavy Thrust? It gives you a damage buff!" will be met with "I don't take this game as serious as you" or "It's my 12.95 I'll play how I want."

It's this image, which I'm sure I've linked here before.

[Image: fAUOr2c.png]

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Kage - 03-09-2015

I would like to think that most of my grumps are of the variety that you may think is similar to the above image. Or when BLM/THM just cast ice spells or just cast Fire III Fire III... or Fire III. Blizzard III. or... Casting regen on a tank before he pulls a new mob.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Maril - 03-09-2015

I've been getting the Elitist label chucked at me a lot more in recent time than I ever have anywhere else. But at the same time, none of the people who actually use it against me and whoever else they feel the desire to target, are using it as per the definition you give it in your OP. What you write is exactly how I would describe the elitists of old that pestered me when I was a whippersnapper in the world of RP, people who look down upon you and point out in the nastiest of ways, all of the things that is wrong with your RP as per whatever standards they run by. Heck, I even remember a certain rogue in WoW who followed "Bad" roleplayers like me around in stealth whenever we were roleplaying, commenting on how rotten we all were to a chat channel that was created pretty much just for spiting and rumor-mongering. It is to this day some of the worst high-school rubbish behavior I have ever seen in a RP community. 

What I think people are more reacting to when it is used against me for example, is that they've found out where my standards and expectations are - I won't lie, I have high expectations of myself and of the FC that I lead - either because someone talked about it or maybe they read a forum post where you express it. 
I think a lot of people tend to assume that people with high standards automatically think they're better than you, or they might feel inferior, insecure or just feel like they're being judged. So I guess it gets easier to just go "Those damn elitists". 
With myself, I can be incredibly strict with the lore - and I have had people upset with me because I do not take a shining to what they're doing in RP, but lore is usually not at the top of my list of why I wont RP with a person. More-so than anything else, if anyone violate the common rules of RP, especially bleed between ic/ooc, I will get myself on a distance because that shit can be downright volatile. I also get really discouraged if someone glosses over the rules because they want to RP a demigod for funsies. 

If lore becomes an issue, it's usually because people insist that I have to accept their RP - I RP with plenty of people where I have just asked them not to mention to my character, whatever it is that they're doing that I wouldn't be able to let my character hear without the world breaking apart, and it works just fine. 
Some of the major areas where I feel I can't let my character hear something is fantasia use, being an IC whitemage/blackmage and other things of a world-changing scale. 
It doesn't mean I do not look between the lines and think creatively to get something to work out, but usually when I do, only a few people know ICly and such details wont pop up on my characters wiki either. I don't want to impose my justifications on anyone else, because what sounds like a sane way to rationalize something might not suit someone else. 

And at the end of the day.. I still can look at other people doing paragraph emotes in all of their glory and descriptiveness, then look at my shitty little 3-line emote where I mention smiling for the 500th time and feel like I am the worst little noob ever. I also still get bouts where I just do not dare approaching strange characters. I think one of the reasons why I might be so tight with the rules and the lore is in part because I do not want to disappoint other people. So there's that. 

Anyways, that's my two gil on why some things might be as they are. I have no idea why it seems a much bigger issue around here compared to other communities, but I think some healthy debate on the subject would be good.. Presuming that this thread doesn't go to shits.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Qhora Bajihri - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 08:17 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Those who designate themselves as such make me laugh even harder -- seriously, it cracks me up to tears.

I've had some interesting conversations with people who designated themselves as such (not in FFXIV, mind), because I had the audacity to play with others that they deemed lunatic lorebreakers. Granted, said people were of the "I'm really a world-eating dragon" variety, but I saw it as an exercise in creative flexibility on my part, while my accusers seemed to think I was a glutton for punishment. Or something? I don't know what they were thinking really, but I do know that they suggested I not play with said others anymore. Um, okay. I just kept doing my thing with whoever I wanted. That was a long time ago, though. RP elitism doesn't come up all that often for me anymore.

I definitely make loud WTF comments (that no one can hear) when people do odd things in PvE, but unless it actually becomes problematic for some reason, I usually just let it slide. Have myself a chuckle or an eyebrow raise and deal with it, especially since I've definitely been the one in their shoes at times. We were all noobs at some point.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Cato - 03-09-2015

'Elitism' doesn't necessarily need to be something negative. We boast a very diverse community made up of all sorts of different people with some very different perspectives. I consider myself to be something of an elitist - simply because I always strive to do my best.

Role-play is a hobby that I enjoy but as I live in a completely different timezone to many other role-players I don't really have the patience or the time to wade through stuff that I find ridiculous or directly contradictory to my immersion.

This doesn't need to be a source of conflict either - though in my experience a lot of people react poorly even when you word 'sorry, not interest' in as polite a manner as possible.

Besides, you can't please everybody and some people just lack in basic etiquette or refuse to put their foot down to the point where their role-play is usually pretty awkward.

I'm willing to compromise, of course, but generally there's some stuff I try to avoid altogether simply because I find it ridiculous. The casual use of Fantasia is a major example, especially with so many people expressing a desire to turn their character into an Au Ra when the expansion is upon us.

To me, that strikes me as odd and pretty lazy. It also suggests - to me at least - that it's not worth involving myself with their character in-depth because chances are they'll just latch onto whatever happens to the 'flavour of the month' at the time and expect everybody else to play along.

Now if it were part of a major storyline and a source of conflict and turmoil for the character then I'd not be nearly as opposed to it (though still a little wary).

At the end of the day, though? I prefer to tell a good story and appreciate those who seek to the same without trying to go out of their way to be as bizarre as possible. True creativity in my mind is not doing anything and everything under the sun, it's creating an interesting character that fits the confines of the setting without requiring someone to bend over backwards in an attempt to try and make it work.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Warren Castille - 03-09-2015

I've only met one pending-Au Ra in character so far and he's doing a stupendous job of keeping that identity hidden while also making it very clear. I'm similar, though; I tend to gloss over IC fantasia use barring extraordinary circumstances. There being an elixir that can change someone into a potato is too much for me to not figuring it would have been weaponized already.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Kage - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 09:01 AM)allgivenover Wrote: Here's several instances where I've been labeled one though, not all of them are experiences I had in XIV:
  • Having issue with a sudden retcon of character details that would have greatly changed how mine and others characters acted towards that character
Early on when I started to RP (in FFXIV), someone got really upset when he decided to make sure he wasn't completely unhappy, that he would re-roll his character. Instead of explaining how things would/may have changed and how he wanted to work with others, he seemed to expect everyone else to rectify how the retcons would be affected. His argument was that "I've done this with my friends before and it only took us 15 min ish to work out how the retcon would change things. And we'd been roleplaying that stuff for way longer than how we did it here." Instead of taking the time to work with people (and I will admit some people seemed not at all willing to see if it would be possible to accommodate him), he just kept saying "oh he wouldn't have reacted that way" if people referred to interactions they had previously had that were important. And then I think he quit the game shortly after.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Gegenji - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 11:01 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I'm willing to compromise, of course, but generally there's some stuff I try to avoid altogether simply because I find it ridiculous. The casual use of Fantasia is a major example, especially with so many people expressing a desire to turn their character into an Au Ra when the expansion is upon us.

To me, that strikes me as odd and pretty lazy. It also suggests - to me at least - that it's not worth involving myself with their character in-depth because chances are they'll just latch onto whatever happens to the 'flavour of the month' at the time and expect everybody else to play along.

You have to wonder, though. How much of it IS just 'flavour of the month' and how much is it people changing over to a race/class they would've started out with if they had existed at the time of character creation? We have folks who've RPed as having guns/interest in magitek, we've had fortunetellers and diviners, and there's plenty of folks who totally made their character a Dark Knight rather than a Paladin or Warrior if it had been available.

Who's to say it can't be the same with the Au Ra? It's just a situation of race rather than class, so it seems a more... "jarring" transition. And not everyone is willing to roll up an entirely new character for the race they would've wanted to begin with, so - if they want to continue RPing with that character - they're really left with three options:

1. ) I WAS AN AU RA ALL ALONG - Using glamours and whatnot to explain why their Miqo'te was actually a dragonperson.
2.) OOPS, FANTASIA - Using an item that has been used plenty of times before in some RPs (much to the chagrin of others, at times) to have a character switch from one race to another.
3.) I'M DED - the most extreme choice, ICly killing their character and introducing themselves as their new, Au Ra form.

Sure, there'll still be folks who are doing it just because it's the new thing - I'm not saying there won't be. I'm just averse to just marking it up to laziness or being a flavour of the month thing.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Parvacake - 03-09-2015

Elitism is a mindset in my opinion. There's good and bad strains of it. Others here have pretty much taken the words from my own mouth including a tidbit on how it's all about the reasonings behind it.

If you're going to be a jerk to someone because they aren't on your level, then poo on you. That's a form of bad elitism.

If you try to help someone improve and they want/accept/appreciate your help and guidance then I see it as a form of good elitism.

I won't lie: I'm guilty of having some elitist tendencies of a negative kind, however my empathy and my want of people being happy and getting along tends to balance this out. Though sometimes I'll recline in my chair and grumble to my cat about how there is a difference between 'your' and 'you're' and people need to learn how to use it. Or something else that has me peeved.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Aldotsk - 03-09-2015

There are plenty of elitists out there who seem to know what they are doing or they know more than other players, but some don't even put more efforts than new players and still act elitist as if they know everything. I usually find them to be hypocrite/ignorant elitist or self-proclaimed elitist. 

In roleplaying, there are more dramas and more elitists than gamers because most people had other roleplaying experiences outside FFXIV and some don't even open their arms to new roleplayers in general and it happens a lot anywhere you go because these veteran roleplayers feel fear that these new roleplayers will ruin it for them. 

Also Doton , I find the damage ratio to be better than Raiton sometimes and I am always Doton/Katon person over Raiton anytime. Futon is my first anytime , I don't miss that. As for Suiton - well that's another attack I favor when I use trick attack.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Cato - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 11:36 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 11:01 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I'm willing to compromise, of course, but generally there's some stuff I try to avoid altogether simply because I find it ridiculous. The casual use of Fantasia is a major example, especially with so many people expressing a desire to turn their character into an Au Ra when the expansion is upon us.

To me, that strikes me as odd and pretty lazy. It also suggests - to me at least - that it's not worth involving myself with their character in-depth because chances are they'll just latch onto whatever happens to the 'flavour of the month' at the time and expect everybody else to play along.

You have to wonder, though. How much of it IS just 'flavour of the month' and how much is it people changing over to a race/class they would've started out with if they had existed at the time of character creation? We have folks who've RPed as having guns/interest in magitek, we've had fortunetellers and diviners, and there's plenty of folks who totally made their character a Dark Knight rather than a Paladin or Warrior if it had been available.

Who's to say it can't be the same with the Au Ra? It's just a situation of race rather than class, so it seems a more... "jarring" transition. And not everyone is willing to roll up an entirely new character for the race they would've wanted to begin with, so - if they want to continue RPing with that character - they're really left with three options:

1. ) I WAS AN AU RA ALL ALONG - Using glamours and whatnot to explain why their Miqo'te was actually a dragonperson.
2.) OOPS, FANTASIA - Using an item that has been used plenty of times before in some RPs (much to the chagrin of others, at times) to have a character switch from one race to another.
3.) I'M DED - the most extreme choice, ICly killing their character and introducing themselves as their new, Au Ra form.

Sure, there'll still be folks who are doing it just because it's the new thing - I'm not saying there won't be. I'm just averse to just marking it up to laziness or being a flavour of the month thing.

It just feels like a cheap move to me. There's so little racial lore in this game as it stands when compared to the likes of ESO and WoW so it just feels jarring when people acknowledge the ability to change their character's race on a whim.

It's not something I've seen happen in other MMO's so I have no idea why it's so widespread in this community. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, though - since it seems to be something that American role-players are much more eager to embrace whereas my fellow European brethren don't. (Though I could be wrong, of course!)

I just favour the idea of using it OOC and starting with a fresh character. Heck, they can even make the character very similar to their original character!

So long as people don't force their views on anybody else it's fine - but on the other hand, they should be free to explain themselves and inform people of what they think without being branded as an elitist wanker.

I've said this in countless other threads but a lot of the people branded 'elitist' in this community are very friendly and lovely to interact with whilst many of those who claim to be open, welcoming and lace their every word with sugar are actually the ones who are manipulative jerks and difficult to work with if you're not in their little social circles.

It's why I take most of what I read on this site with a pinch of salt.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - ProvaDiServo - 03-09-2015

Elitism.....

In other games: Alot of times when I recap with a teammate or opponent I typically tell it how I see it. ( I.E : You do X so you are being punished by Y and Z or...You need to go and practice Y because overal it's ruining you overall and effecting X and Z) And alot of times because I'm direct the feed back is Negative "Elitist" and "Tryhards" are typical words I hesr flung at me.

In PVE

I'm pretty lax on this for the most part. I've got a huge amount of patience for dungeons and adjustments. I have less patience for griefers, I will typically throw out an STFU if I know that someone is genuinely learning a dungeon/ Just having an off day and is getting mobbed by other players. I've been that guy in other MMOs and I know that shit is not cool when nobody has your back.


In RP

Haven't been called or considered elitist directly, I don't think I do anything that warrants the title. I crack ooc jokes every-so often but nothing along the lines of shaming. I don't turn down RP when approached nor do I really dismiss anyone, other than myself (Although my character isn't much for interaction)And that's if I need to afk for a certain amount of time and I think the wait would far too long. I'd like to think no one has beef with me for thinking I'm snubbing them or belittling their RP.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Warren Castille - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 11:43 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: Also Doton , I find the damage ratio to be better than Raiton sometimes and I am always Doton/Katon person over Raiton anytime.

To self-demonstrate what some people will undoubtedly find elitist (and I'm sorry for this being "aimed" at you specifically, Anelia):

Doton: 30 potency over 24 seconds/8 ticks for 240 potency
Katon: 180 potency immediately
Raiton: 360 Potency, single target

360 > 240 > 180. Use Raiton on bosses. Doton only beats Katon after 18 seconds of uptime.

RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Gegenji - 03-09-2015

(03-09-2015, 11:44 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I just favour the idea of using it OOC and starting with a fresh character. Heck, they can even make the character very similar to their original character!

Nothing wrong with that! A lot of folks (including myself) have plans for fresh Au Ra characters.

I'm just saying that others may not be willing to (or can not) dedicate the time for building up a whole new character for such things. Either due to time, effort, or the fact they want the character to have things that you can't GET on a new character (Yukatas and /bombdance, for example - I know I regret making Chachan after the yukata event, and can only hope they bring it back or put them up for purchase). My Au Ra-to-be, for example, is actually a bit lower level than I'd like him to be at the moment mostly due to not really being up to plowing through the MSQ for a third time... and I want him high enough level not only for the proper cross-class skills, but also to be able to have the widest access to dress-up options. Not to mention I'm working on my first character's Nexus relic AND trying to keep both my "current" characters capped on tomes. And all of this is on top of working a normal 9-5.

It's a lot of work, and I can completely understand why someone would want to circumvent all that by just turning their character into an Au Ra, especially if they're wanting to play and RP for funsies and not turn it into work. The only reason it matters so much in this situation is really because of the RP and the lore surrounding the character - which is why these alternate explanations are used or even needed. It wouldn't matter quite so much on a regular server, I'm sure.

(03-09-2015, 11:51 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(03-09-2015, 11:43 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: Also Doton , I find the damage ratio to be better than Raiton sometimes and I am always Doton/Katon person over Raiton anytime.

To self-demonstrate what some people will undoubtedly find elitist (and I'm sorry for this being "aimed" at you specifically, Anelia):

Doton: 30 potency over 24 seconds/8 ticks for 240 potency
Katon: 180 potency immediately
Raiton: 360 Potency, single target

360 > 240 > 180. Use Raiton on bosses. Doton only beats Katon after 18 seconds of uptime.

See, that's the thing. If you math it out, sure, it makes sense. But you can play the class well enough without knowing that. I'd be more worried about the NIN that doesn't put his venoms on or fails his basic combo rotation over one that tries to maintain a Doton. Yes, you're missing out on 120 potency on that one particular Mudra, but it's better than screwing up the Mudra entirely or never using Haiton.