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RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:29 PM)Oswin Wrote: This is a side effect of rising developmental costs. Games need to be more approachable to read a wider range of audiences. This coined the now famous term "We want the CoD audience".
COD could release an empty blue-ray and it would still sell. I can't even complain, I bought COD Black Ops and World at War to play with friends mostly. It's was pretty joyful fun playing Zombies at night and surviving to wave 60 something.

All in all, I honestly believe that, much like music, the more fresh ideas have gone to the Indie industry.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Mercer - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:33 PM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-28-2015, 07:29 PM)Oswin Wrote: This is a side effect of rising developmental costs. Games need to be more approachable to read a wider range of audiences. This coined the now famous term "We want the CoD audience".
COD could release an empty blue-ray and it would still sell. I can't even complain, I bought COD Black Ops and World at War to play with friends mostly. It's was pretty joyful fun playing Zombies at night and surviving to wave 60 something.

All in all, I honestly believe that, much like music, the more fresh ideas have gone to the Indie industry.
This is very true, but also dangerous.

Something that Valve has been criticized for is the lack of moderation in their green light and early access services. Low quality games have flooded the market, and some games never leave Early Access, becoming abandonware after gamers have already paid for the game they are beta testing. Practices like this, where large amounts of mediocre games flooded the market, is what lead to the first video game crash.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Warren Castille - 04-28-2015

I'm not sure the comparison to Greenlight is fair. Games come out and have to sell, and buying Early Access is basically handing someone your money and then waiting for them to run home and come back with your product. The solution is the same as the mod fiasco: Don't buy shit in EA and people will stop having incentives to cash out.

Of course, having said that, I own Killing Floor 2 and was eagerly awaiting giving them my hard-earned spacebux.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - OttoVann - 04-28-2015

How old is the CoD audience and how much attention is given to them buying your game?

In what Warren quoted me, he mentioned near the end about 10 year olds not buying the new hotness every year, I agree their parents are. I don't have much outside of opinion for this, but I imagine kids are more susceptible to the "gotta have" new stuff than older for a variety of reasons but most predominantly because they want to play with their peers who will also be on it.

Back to my original point to reinforce, I think the CoD audience is what most publishers and developers go after, I think the CoD audience definitely does not average 31, and I think the CoD audience has the most free-flowing money swirling around it due to people in that bracket not only buying the CoD for themselves, but because their children want it - and they are content with Same Game.

I also don't see a problem with a bulk of game revenues and profits being made off of that, if that's the case.

We can also squarely and unequivocally blame rising production costs on games to the graphics (or visuals) arms-race. People demand hyper-realism or HD, spend thousands of dollars for a machine capable of it, and wonder why costs went up. However, I wonder what the average cost of production was for 2013 and especially 2014 since those years have seen explosive growth in the 'indie' market, games that typically retail for sub $20 and show it. Those production costs are way down, especially for the 8/16-bit renaissance we are having (which I fucking hate personally).

Rambling now, but that's all I have to add for now.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:35 PM)Oswin Wrote:
(04-28-2015, 07:33 PM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-28-2015, 07:29 PM)Oswin Wrote: This is a side effect of rising developmental costs. Games need to be more approachable to read a wider range of audiences. This coined the now famous term "We want the CoD audience".
COD could release an empty blue-ray and it would still sell. I can't even complain, I bought COD Black Ops and World at War to play with friends mostly. It's was pretty joyful fun playing Zombies at night and surviving to wave 60 something.

All in all, I honestly believe that, much like music, the more fresh ideas have gone to the Indie industry.
This is very true, but also dangerous.

Something that Valve has been criticized for is the lack of moderation in their green light and early access services. Low quality games have flooded the market, and some games never leave Early Access, becoming abandonware after gamers have already paid for the game they are beta testing. Practices like this, where large amounts of mediocre games flooded the market, is what lead to the first video game crash.
Unfortunately, that will always be a side-effect. A very cynical part of me is convinced not stronger moderation will happen because you have to pay 100 dollars to get your game on greenlight, and Valve, specially this past year in general, has been quite greedy, and there WILL always be bad games.

It won't cause a crash however. The gaming industry isn't in a big bubble because people still buy AAA games. The first crash was caused because people weren't even BUYING games. Period.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Cogito - 04-28-2015

I actually have a very positive view of the future of games, but I think it's not in (most) triple A studios.

Examples being the rebirth of the mid-high range studio as exemplified in CDProjekt, CCP, and Paradox, as well as the rise of indies/rebirth of "garage video game development" as seen in Limbo, Titan Souls, Bastion/Transistor, and of course the occasional kickstarter game such as Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2.

Tools will continue to get better and easier for independent teams, now many game engines and toolkits such as Unreal Engine 4 are making cheaper models for indie developers to use the engine.

AAA gaming development will always exist just as AAA movies will always exist, but 90% of the time the better/more meaningful stuff is going to come from lesser known studios, or games with much smaller budgets than the triple-A games. Just like how most of the best movies every year tend to be independent films, or artistic directors given a budget and free range with that budget.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:40 PM)OttoVann Wrote: How old is the CoD audience and how much attention is given to them buying your game?  

In what Warren quoted me, he mentioned near the end about 10 year olds not buying the new hotness every year, I agree their parents are.  I don't have much outside of opinion for this, but I imagine kids are more susceptible to the "gotta have" new stuff than older for a variety of reasons but most predominantly because they want to play with their peers who will also be on it.

Back to my original point to reinforce, I think the CoD audience is what most publishers and developers go after, I think the CoD audience definitely does not average 31, and I think the CoD audience has the most free-flowing money swirling around it due to people in that bracket not only buying the CoD for themselves, but because their children want it - and they are content with Same Game.

I also don't see a problem with a bulk of game revenues and profits being made off of that, if that's the case.  

We can also squarely and unequivocally blame rising production costs on games to the graphics (or visuals) arms-race.  People demand hyper-realism or HD, spend thousands of dollars for a machine capable of it, and wonder why costs went up.  However, I wonder what the average cost of production was for 2013 and especially 2014 since those years have seen explosive growth in the 'indie' market, games that typically retail for sub $20 and show it.  Those production costs are way down, especially for the 8/16-bit renaissance we are having (which I fucking hate personally).

Rambling now, but that's all I have to add for now.
You and me. What people see in PIXELS PIXELS PIXELS PIXELS is beyond me. Not to say I hate all games that style, Cave Story and Risk of Rain comes to mind. They're popular too because, as I made a game before, pixel games are cheap to make art, cheap to program in most cases, and cheap to make backgrounds and stuff. Low risk Medium Profit in most cases.


Gaming is a VERY expensive hobby, almost unhealthly so, with all companies trying to squeeze your money for all it's worth, getting borderline illegal in many cases. It's a wild west by all sense and purposes.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Mercer - 04-28-2015

There's a lot going on with the indie scene and AAA scene, in a lot of ways they are complete opposites. AAA developers have their names out there, they have established franchises to draw from, but little creative freedom. Indie developers are idea people, but their ideas aren't as well developed in most cases.

The end result is the same though, poorly created games that are either stagnent or can't preform as grandly as their creators hope. There are exceptions to this rule, of course. Out of the muck comes grand new enterprises like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Binding of Isaac or Killing Floor. They will get refined more over time as they reach a larger audience.

There's no real answer for any of the problems the video game community has right now. There are underlying currents of mistrust between gamers, developers and publishers that has been growing for years now. There's little trust let to give out, and more of it being destroyed as the months go on.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:43 PM)Cogito Wrote: I actually have a very positive view of the future of games, but I think it's not in (most) triple A studios.

Examples being the rebirth of the mid-high range studio as exemplified in CDProjekt, CCP, and Paradox, as well as the rise of indies/rebirth of "garage video game development" as seen in Limbo, Titan Souls, Bastion/Transistor, and of course the occasional kickstarter game such as Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2.

Tools will continue to get better and easier for independent teams, now many game engines and toolkits such as Unreal Engine 4 are making cheaper models for indie developers to use the engine.

AAA gaming development will always exist just as AAA movies will always exist, but 90% of the time the better/more meaningful stuff is going to come from lesser known studios, or games with much smaller budgets than the triple-A games. Just like how most of the best movies every year tend to be independent films, or artistic directors given a budget and free range with that budget.
I do have to note however one thing. Not always the Dev/Artistic Director is right.


Shaylaman, John Karmack, and George Lucas were given full liberty to his movies/daikatana/starwars prequels. And we all know what happened.

Not everyone is a Kojima.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:45 PM)Oswin Wrote: There's a lot going on with the indie scene and AAA scene, in a lot of ways they are complete opposites. AAA developers have their names out there, they have established franchises to draw from, but little creative freedom. Indie developers are idea people, but their ideas aren't as well developed in most cases.

The end result is the same though, poorly created games that are either stagnent or can't preform as grandly as their creators hope. There are exceptions to this rule, of course. Out of the muck comes grand new enterprises like Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma, Binding of Isaac or Killing Floor. They will get refined more over time as they reach a larger audience.

There's no real answer for any of the problems the video game community has right now. There are underlying currents of mistrust between gamers, developers and publishers that has been growing for years now. There's little trust let to give out, and more of it being destroyed as the months go on.
I don't think we're heading to a crash, but I won't deny we're in to a turning point in the industry.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Mercer - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:40 PM)OttoVann Wrote: How old is the CoD audience and how much attention is given to them buying your game?  

In what Warren quoted me, he mentioned near the end about 10 year olds not buying the new hotness every year, I agree their parents are.  I don't have much outside of opinion for this, but I imagine kids are more susceptible to the "gotta have" new stuff than older for a variety of reasons but most predominantly because they want to play with their peers who will also be on it.

Back to my original point to reinforce, I think the CoD audience is what most publishers and developers go after, I think the CoD audience definitely does not average 31, and I think the CoD audience has the most free-flowing money swirling around it due to people in that bracket not only buying the CoD for themselves, but because their children want it - and they are content with Same Game.

I also don't see a problem with a bulk of game revenues and profits being made off of that, if that's the case.  

We can also squarely and unequivocally blame rising production costs on games to the graphics (or visuals) arms-race.  People demand hyper-realism or HD, spend thousands of dollars for a machine capable of it, and wonder why costs went up.  However, I wonder what the average cost of production was for 2013 and especially 2014 since those years have seen explosive growth in the 'indie' market, games that typically retail for sub $20 and show it.  Those production costs are way down, especially for the 8/16-bit renaissance we are having (which I fucking hate personally).

Rambling now, but that's all I have to add for now.

My question to you Otto is: What proof do you have? So far we've been sourcing numbers and facts about the decline of the series as well as the average age of gamers. In fact, before 2013 the average age was 38, because the ESA was not using mobile gamers as part of their equation. Children are a small minority of gamers, nothing I've referenced was on who buys the games but actually plays them. 

Do you have any proof or evidence that is not hearsay? I want to be clear that I am just curious on where you are getting your information.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Cogito - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:45 PM)Desu Nee Wrote:
(04-28-2015, 07:43 PM)Cogito Wrote: I actually have a very positive view of the future of games, but I think it's not in (most) triple A studios.

Examples being the rebirth of the mid-high range studio as exemplified in CDProjekt, CCP, and Paradox, as well as the rise of indies/rebirth of "garage video game development" as seen in Limbo, Titan Souls, Bastion/Transistor, and of course the occasional kickstarter game such as Pillars of Eternity and Wasteland 2.

Tools will continue to get better and easier for independent teams, now many game engines and toolkits such as Unreal Engine 4 are making cheaper models for indie developers to use the engine.

AAA gaming development will always exist just as AAA movies will always exist, but 90% of the time the better/more meaningful stuff is going to come from lesser known studios, or games with much smaller budgets than the triple-A games. Just like how most of the best movies every year tend to be independent films, or artistic directors given a budget and free range with that budget.
I do have to note however one thing. Not always the Dev/Artistic Director is right.


Shaylaman, John Karmack, and George Lucas were given full liberty to his movies/daikatana/starwars prequels. And we all know what happened.

Not everyone is a Kojima.
Right, and as you mention, you also have your Quentin Tarantino, your Kojima your Christopher Nolan. Of course the director/dev won't always be right.

I guess I just feel very differently about video games. I think the industry overall is getting much much better, it still has a long ways to go but change is happening.

Again, yes there are tons of trash indie games, but there are tons of classics as well.
I would actually argue that as a medium, more "quality video games" (games that for one reason or another someone will really love or enjoy) are made annually than a decade ago.

You have a lot of sexists coming out of the woodwork and harassing female gamedevs and anyone that complains about sexism in the industry, but at least people are starting to complain and make these criticisms of the industry now, and change is happening in response to them.

Gone Home, easily one of my favorite games of the decade, would not have existed ten years ago for a number of reasons.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Warren Castille - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:45 PM)Desu Nee Wrote: I do have to note however one thing. Not always the Dev/Artistic Director is right.


Shaylaman, John Karmack, and George Lucas were given full liberty to his movies/daikatana/starwars prequels. And we all know what happened.

Not everyone is a Kojima.

The one that bugs me the most: Dennis fucking Dydack.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Melkire - 04-28-2015

I saw mentions of Metacritic and such earlier in the thread.

One very important thing to note is that word-of-mouth is still the best review format for any given video game. Attempts to quantify quality are always prone to error, given how enterprising hatred can result in folks bombing Metacritic's User Scores (4chan's /v/ used to do this quite often back before that board went downhill) and so on. There's also the inherent bias in a 10-point scale: rarely does anyone give an honest score of anything between a 2 and a 6. 7s, 8s, 9s, and 10s are common scores, as are 0s and 1s. This naturally skews matters, especially when many user reviews are coming from young adolescents.

Don't get me started on aggregate reviews, either: video game reviewers, as extensions of video game journalism which was more or less morally bankrupt and lacking integrity from the word "go", are prone to the usual politicking from marketing and Big Business, and those practices are allowed to continue due to ignorance on the part of a large portion of the consumer base (video gaming as a hobby blew up in the mid 00's, population wise, and many casual "gamers" as we now refer to them are still playing catch-up; just ask around and find out how many of them still think IGN is a good video games news site).

Nothing will ever be as useful as turning to a friend and asking, "hey, did you play Game X? Did you like it? Why or why not? What sort of games do you usually like that your tastes and preferences might have affected your opinion on Game X?"

tl;dr: quit being sheeple, video games have yet to mature enough as an industry for reliable ratings systems to have emerged.

RE: Video Games, Quality thereof and You - Desu Nee - 04-28-2015

(04-28-2015, 07:55 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-28-2015, 07:45 PM)Desu Nee Wrote: I do have to note however one thing. Not always the Dev/Artistic Director is right.


Shaylaman, John Karmack, and George Lucas were given full liberty to his movies/daikatana/starwars prequels. And we all know what happened.

Not everyone is a Kojima.

The one that bugs me the most: Dennis fucking Dydack.
The name ain't very familiar, what he did again? Googled, still not a clue.