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+--- Thread: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ (/showthread.php?tid=13193)
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Hyakki - 08-29-2015
It might be the wording but to me, it sounds as if OP was offended that a stranger did not include them in a closed RP or accept their personal headcanon for the area.
Not everyone is comfortable with randoms inviting themselves. Check their search info to see if they're open to walk-up style RP or ask for permission to join. Also, don't take offense if they say no.
The alleged quote from the other player has me confused, did you imply you owned the building or did they assume you were suggesting such? If it was the former, shame on you, would you appreciate someone forcing their way of RP on you? You handled this situation poorly.
(08-29-2015, 02:44 AM)Kage Wrote: Do you somehow have different knowledge or is it just the implication about the use of 'lore' or 'OP's meeting place' that made you think about something that no one else is reading into this?
(08-28-2015, 04:45 PM)Anthony Valron Wrote: "[In a public place like Dragonhead too. I'm sorry, it's very much clashing against the established lore. You own this building and such ? The rule isn't being broken, you're just overstepping the boundaries and performing an action without knowing the background of whom you're interacting with. Please, check again.]"The bold part is what has me wondering. Either OP insisted the spot was his property and not a part of Dragonhead or the other party made assumptions and flipped out over nothing. We don't have the full details, maybe more was said or maybe the other guy really was that easily triggered. Either way, poor decisions were made on handling the situation.
(08-29-2015, 02:44 AM)Kage Wrote: If "/em looked at another person in the same area" was just throwing someone into another person's "closed" RP... welp. My thoughts on that areIt might be for some people. There's always the option to ignore the newcomer's presence and carry on if that''s the case.
I'm gonna slither back under my cozy rock now, later.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Kage - 08-29-2015
Do you somehow have different knowledge or is it just the implication about the use of 'lore' or 'OP's meeting place' that made you think about something that no one else is reading into this?
Granted, there is a lot missing but what is presented is:
>OP glances at other RPer in Dragonhead area with annoyance.
>OP gets a bunch of tells by someone who is angry that OP looked at them with annoyance. It sounds as if the other RPer made the assumption that this annoyance was due to standing or ownership of the area and got upset OOCly.
While the words about "someone being at OP's meeting" may be a -slight- trigger, that seems to be a leap. Dragonhead is open to others. A simple "/em sees the glance of annoyance and rolls their eyes. As if the areas was closed or owned by a private entity." by the other person could have easily been the response. Or even "/em ignored the look of annoyance and continued about their day with their acquaintance(s)."
If "/em looked at another person in the same area" was just throwing someone into another person's "closed" RP... welp. My thoughts on that are
Quote:"Excuse me, but I know a great deal more about Ishgardian Lore than you, so I would highly appreciate you take your condescending, superior attitude and shove it up your ass. ))"I don't think this was appropriate though.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Virella - 08-29-2015
Despite being away for a few more days, I just have to chip in that people absolutely love bashing down onto Ishgardians who aren't exiles, heretics or sympathisers. While I have no issue with it IC, I've even managed to get OOC blog posts about myself (in the lines of "I fucking hate you because your character is so fucking obnoxious, go kill yourself please" x_X)
It is a thing us Ishgardians somehow seem to be an easy target for, because hell, Ishgardians simply don't get along with people IC right away (unless you are the exile, heretic, sympathiser lot), and people tend to take it as an insult OOC. I tend to just laugh it off, throw them on ignore. Ain't worth my time. People who can't divert IC from OOC are the worst.
That said, most people dislike Virella, Virella dislikes most people simply for the fact they are not Ishgardian and treats them like trash. I do not mind the IC clashing, the nagging, the bitching, the fights ect, I expect it to happen. But as soon as it turns OOC? I'm out.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Oli! - 08-29-2015
I feel like if it was implied at some point (or anywhere) that the OP owned the building in their RP, then that would be the main point of contention for the other person, not so much the glare. The reason for this is that claiming to own locations in-game that aren't actually own-able by the player population (like personal and guild housing) is generally looked upon pretty badly.
If that's what happened, it was probably the reason why the person was upset over the stink-eye, and not so much the stink-eye itself. It could have been that they saw that action as code for "get out, I own this," when they had the right to use the building for what they want as much as anyone else does.
If that wasn't implied anywhere, though, then I'm not sure. It's possible that they made the jump-connection on their own, but I sort-of doubt it.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - FreelanceWizard - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 02:26 AM)Mamushi Wrote: Not everyone is comfortable with randoms inviting themselves. Check their search info to see if they're open to walk-up style RP or ask for permission to join. Also, don't take offense if they say no.
If you're not comfortable with random people showing up and getting involved with your RP, do not do it in public. The IC consequence of RPing in public is that people might respond to it, just as the IC consequence of responding to that RP might be being told to shove off ICly.
No one should ever feel that they have to ask for permission to get involved in RP taking place in a clearly public location.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Anthony Valron - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 09:31 AM)Oli! Wrote: I feel like if it was implied at some point (or anywhere) that the OP owned the building in their RP, then that would be the main point of contention for the other person, not so much the glare. The reason for this is that claiming to own locations in-game that aren't actually own-able by the player population (like personal and guild housing) is generally looked upon pretty badly.The emote literally consisted of this:
If that's what happened, it was probably the reason why the person was upset over the stink-eye, and not so much the stink-eye itself. It could have been that they saw that action as code for "get out, I own this," when they had the right to use the building for what they want as much as anyone else does.
If that wasn't implied anywhere, though, then I'm not sure. It's possible that they made the jump-connection on their own, but I sort-of doubt it.
Anthony Valron frowned at the traveler, an expression of annoyance spreading over his face as he awaited his business meeting.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Oli! - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 10:31 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(08-29-2015, 02:26 AM)Mamushi Wrote: Not everyone is comfortable with randoms inviting themselves. Check their search info to see if they're open to walk-up style RP or ask for permission to join. Also, don't take offense if they say no.
If you're not comfortable with random people showing up and getting involved with your RP, do not do it in public. The IC consequence of RPing in public is that people might respond to it, just as the IC consequence of responding to that RP might be being told to shove off ICly.
No one should ever feel that they have to ask for permission to get involved in RP taking place in a clearly public location.
I don't really know if this is valid.
While yes, not doing it in public is the easiest solution at first glance, the problem arises of where to have it in the first place. Not everyone has a private location such as a house readily available, and it's entirely possible that the RP that you just want to have with yourself and two friends might call for a specific location.
Sometimes people respond to presence, even if all dialogue is in Party, or a linkshell.
There's also the fact that public spaces can be used for whatever the public wants; this includes Private RP.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - Anthony Valron - 08-29-2015
Just to clarify: I did not claim part of Dragonhead, nor will I ever. I did not even attempt to engage the other party in my RP, or enter theirs. My character simply reacted to the presence of someone who he didn't know in the area where he had scheduled a meeting.
This ended with 1000 characters saying that I didn't know the lore, I wasn't a good RPer, and that I shouldn't claim areas of public spaces.
I'm not sure why this was even thought, since the only IC interaction I had was a two-line emote expressing displeasure at someone being nearby without any words said. Said player immediately took it OOC and began raging at me.
I'm new to Balmung, and some RP communities do have specific rules, so I wanted to see if I was doing something wrong, etc.
RE: Bad Experiences of people mixing IC and OOC - 13uddy - 08-29-2015
(08-28-2015, 04:45 PM)Anthony Valron Wrote: e: there were several more whispers after, that insulted my intelligence and my lore-knowledge as well as said that I should pay attention to 'real RPers'.
That last part literally made me choke on my drink laughing. Â Nothing says "Special Snowflake" like a comment like that.
I'm sorry that this happened. Â It isn't fun when someone takes something trivial and tries to spin it as if you had personally attacked them or something. Â They could have easily just ignored you instead of getting so worked up. Â
I haven't had anything like this happen to me lately, but it does unfortunately pop up every once in a while. Â The most recent was quite some time ago when I initially started the game before I had to take an extended hiatus. Â My first character was a Lalafell that I planned to say was found and raised by Hellsguard, so he was named using Roegadyn naming conventions. Â Not the most original idea and it might have been stretching lore a bit, but MOST people either didn't have a problem or they just didn't make a fuss about it if they did. Â But there was one person who apparently thought it was the most offensive thing ever, and instead of being civil and saying "Hey, I don't really think that your name fits", I was called every insult they could think of (though most were spelled incorrectly) and told I should "give up and die". Â It didn't upset me, but it was just so mind boggling that someone would take that much offense to it when I had no prior interaction with this person.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - Sounsyy - 08-29-2015
I for one am very confused upon what lore infraction was supposedly committed?
An Ishgardian looked at a foreigner with disdain. This in and of itself is... commonplace? Ishgardians are no friends to Outsiders. Notable exceptions being some more open-minded members of House Fortemps. But not even all of House Fortemps feels similarly to the Count de Fortemps. This particular House tends to be more open towards it due to the Count's policy on hiring a large number of foreigners to serve their House. Which, if you talk to certain NPCs in Ishgard is seen as unbecoming to a man of Edmond's stature.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - FreelanceWizard - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 10:36 AM)Oli! Wrote: I don't really know if this is valid.
While yes, not doing it in public is the easiest solution at first glance, the problem arises of where to have it in the first place. Not everyone has a private location such as a house readily available, and it's entirely possible that the RP that you just want to have with yourself and two friends might call for a specific location.
Sometimes people respond to presence, even if all dialogue is in Party, or a linkshell.
There's also the fact that public spaces can be used for whatever the public wants; this includes Private RP.
I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying you shouldn't.
When a person does their private RP in a public location, they're continuing the general perception of cliques in the RP community, they're ignoring IC consequences for IC actions, and they're essentially establishing that the other players there are merely an audience for their RP (particularly if they're RPing in /say and /em and telling people they can't get involved OOCly). So, yes, while anyone can certainly do whatever they want, doing private RP in public spaces is, in my mind, inappropriate. When you RP in a clearly public place, you accept the IC consequence of someone else interacting with you. If you don't want that, go somewhere else.
The reason I say "clearly public" is because there's areas that are in public but aren't clearly so. Let's consider Camp Dragonhead. There's the rooms on the walls. If you want a private scene, you can head up there and go into /party. Now, since you're out of the way of where people normally go, you're not in a clearly public location, and at that point I'd say someone stumbling across you should assume that the scene is private until noted otherwise. Yes, there's a judgment call involved here, but I think most people are sensible enough to be able to tell the difference between a place where people should expect potential walk-ups and places where they shouldn't. Near an Aetheryte? At the Bismarck? In a tavern in a town? Those are public. Hermit's Hovel? A cliff out in the field? A side room in Camp Dragonhead? Those aren't (though private RP should be in /party to make it clear).
Note that in all of this, I'm referring to the sort of private RP where those involved ignore others who show up or tell them to go away OOCly -- particularly if they're using /say for their RP. There's nothing wrong with responding to a person showing up and asking them to leave ICly. ICA = ICC, after all, and an IC consequence to trying to strike up a conversation with someone can be being told to buzz off.
Anyway, to get back on topic, to the OP: based on your subsequent posts, the person who went on the tirade in tells is wrong, IMO. It's entirely lore compliant for Ishgardians to look down their noses at outsiders, and from your emote, there's no establishment of any of the things they complained about.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - Anthony Valron - 08-29-2015
Thanks for the clarification; as stated, I AM still very new to FFXIV and the RPC here.
That said, I do feel that my grasp of Ishgardian lore is excellent and I found nothing wrong or out of place w/ my character's actions.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - Oli! - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 11:30 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(08-29-2015, 10:36 AM)Oli! Wrote: I don't really know if this is valid.
While yes, not doing it in public is the easiest solution at first glance, the problem arises of where to have it in the first place. Not everyone has a private location such as a house readily available, and it's entirely possible that the RP that you just want to have with yourself and two friends might call for a specific location.
Sometimes people respond to presence, even if all dialogue is in Party, or a linkshell.
There's also the fact that public spaces can be used for whatever the public wants; this includes Private RP.
I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying you shouldn't.
When a person does their private RP in a public location, they're continuing the general perception of cliques in the RP community, they're ignoring IC consequences for IC actions, and they're essentially establishing that the other players there are merely an audience for their RP (particularly if they're RPing in /say and /em and telling people they can't get involved). So, yes, while anyone can certainly do whatever they want, doing private RP in public spaces is, in my mind, inappropriate. When you RP in a clearly public place, you accept the IC consequence of someone else interacting with you. If you don't want that, go somewhere else.
The reason I say "clearly public" is because there's areas that are in public but aren't clearly so. Let's consider Camp Dragonhead. There's the rooms on the walls. If you want a private scene, you can head up there and go into /party. Now, since you're out of the way of where people normally go, you're not in a clearly public location, and at that point I'd say someone stumbling across you should assume that the scene is private until noted otherwise. Yes, there's a judgment call involved here, but I think most people are sensible enough to be able to tell the difference between a place where people should expect potential walk-ups and places where they shouldn't. Near an Aetheryte? At the Bismarck? In a tavern in a town? Those are public. Hermit's Hovel? A cliff out in the field? A side room in Camp Dragonhead? Those aren't (though private RP should be in /party to make it clear).
Note that in all of this, I'm referring to the sort of private RP where those involved ignore others who show up or tell them to go away OOCly -- particularly if they're using /say for their RP. There's nothing wrong with responding to a person showing up and asking them to leave ICly. ICA = ICC, after all, and an IC consequence to trying to strike up a conversation with someone can be being told to buzz off.
Anyway, to get back on topic, to the OP: based on your subsequent posts, the person who went on the tirade in tells is wrong, IMO. It's entirely lore compliant for Ishgardians to look down their noses at outsiders, and from your emote, there's no establishment of any of the things they complained about.
I still can't really see this as valid. People are free to do what they want in a public location. Additionally, one of the central unspoken tenets of any RP community is the idea that you don't have to RP with anyone that you don't want to. This would be in violation of that tenet.
If you were to walk up to a group of friends playing Monopoly in the park, ask if you can play, and then get denied, you can't say, "well this park is a clearly public location, and you must therefore let me play Monopoly with you." Similarly, if someone has their Ferrari parked in a street, you can't say "you have to let me drive your car, because you parked it in a public location." They're using private property in an open spot. Having someone play Monopoly with you, or driving your car when you don't want them to isn't a consequence of being where you are. Yes, you might be able to avoid these unwanted advances if you parked your Ferrari in a garage, or played Monopoly in your living room, but you also don't have to accept these advances just because you're in a public place. Just because something is out in the open doesn't mean that you are automatically allowed to partake in it.
In the context of this game, the Public Area is The Game, and the Private Property is Your Roleplay. Just as I am free to play Monopoly in the park with my friends and exclude people if I wish, other people are free to Roleplay in public with their friends and exclude people if they want to. It is even possible to turn the Consequences theme on its head, and say that if you decide to try and get involved in things that other people are doing, then you have to accept them excluding you as a consequence for your actions.
I also don't think that the concept of IC Consequence Avoidance applies here anyway, because they are not asking for anything; if I were to sit out in a bench in Ul'dah ICly, and someone Roleplays sniping my character and killing them without my approval, with their reasoning being "well, that's the consequence of sitting on a park bench in an area without security," I think that everyone here would be willing to agree that that would be at least slightly unreasonable. It's the same thing with Private Roleplay; if some people just sit out in the middle of a place talking about something, and someone comes over and tries to join, then I don't think it could be seen as Consequence Avoidance for them to say, "actually this is just between us, sorry."
It would be different if the scenario was such that they did ask for it, such as making it public and then making it private later, or giving someone permission to overhear them and deciding against it later, but those are both instances in which the Roleplay is no longer private, and therefore does not apply to the circumstances that we're discussing.
As far as turning people into an audience goes, I don't think that this is so at all. No one is forcing anyone else to do nothing but watch, and you are entirely within your rights to leave, roleplay around them, pretend they're there anyway, pretend they're not there, use them as barstools, or whatever else you may fancy.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - Kage - 08-29-2015
Yes you don't need to engage people in public RP. As said, the person OP emoted at could have easily just ignored the OP's emote. People do that in the Quicksand all the time. The other player could have just made an equally dismissive IC action. Instead they took a relatively innocent emote and blew it up OOC.
RE: Edited Title; Public Space OOC/IC issue~ - Oli! - 08-29-2015
(08-29-2015, 11:57 AM)Kage Wrote: Yes you don't need to engage people in public RP. As said, the person OP emoted at could have easily just ignored the OP's emote. People do that in the Quicksand all the time. The other player could have just made an equally dismissive IC action. Instead they took a relatively innocent emote and blew it up OOC.
As far as we know, yes, this is the case.
LoneWizard and I are talking about something different now, as far as I can tell.