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+--- Thread: Thieves... people not getting it (/showthread.php?tid=3300)
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Sienna - 08-05-2013
My thief-orientated characters do not consider themselves heroes, though they do heroic things. The consider themselves adventurers with an ambiguous moral code. In honestly, I've not really encountered any thief-types who claim to be heroes outside of those who WOULD BE considered heroic (albeit forgotten heroes) through their efforts against Garlemald, specifically during The Battle of Carteneau. Even the darkest shade of grey has people they want to fight for.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Castegyre - 08-05-2013
This reminds me of two things from D&D.
Kender, some people have a different concept of ownership.
And traditional alignment; Lawful (evil) Bastard, Chaotic (evil) Stupid, and True (neutral) Evil. Meaning, this is the misconception of how most people view the alignments and play them as caricatures instead of characters.
As was mentioned, as someone who spent more than a couple of decades playing and often running P&P and other games being able to step into the shoes of the bad guy is not only necessary, but sometimes satisfying. Especially if you can inspire others to drive their characters to new heights by being creative with the lows your character can present them to overcome.
I'm actually not a fan of the thief with a heart of gold, but a particular quote has meaning to me in regards to playing the bad guy, "I don't play monsters, I play men besieged by fate and out for revenge." Vincent Price.
EDIT: I have no idea why the forums just went psycho on my post...
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Ashren Dotharl - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 03:08 PM)Heinrich Foust Wrote: Just to clear things up a bit, I have no problem with people roleplaying villains and the like as long as they have made the case clear that is what they are aiming to do. My issue is with people who think they're playing a hero while at the same time committing regular acts of evil against innocents. I've had to deal with that non-sense when playing Dungeons and Dragons before, and I don't want to have to deal with it again. It was almost like these guys thought that because their hero was able to walk into someone's house and loot it for hi-potions in some previous game they played on the DS or something that it is perfectly alright to do so in an actual role playing situation.While I agree with some of your points, I feel you're being too absolute. Too black and white if you will. There needs to be a distinction made here between something being unlawful, and something being evil. Theft is not evil, though it could be argued that greed is. If you're an orphaned child who lives on the streets with your younger sibling, you have no means to work or survive outside of pinching a loaf of bread every few days or something like that, does that make you a vile and insidious criminal? I don't think so.
I think your interpretation of a hero also falls a bit too far into "Superman Syndrome," in other words the type of character that cannot and will not do bad things under any circumstance. In the real world we view murder as evil, right? And yet we revere soldiers who go over seas to kill for their country as heroes. Even in FFXIV people who go out and fight with (and kill) Garlemald soldiers are viewed as heroes. Yet murder is still evil, right? It's all a matter of perspective.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Martiallais - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 03:14 PM)Sienna Wrote: My thief-orientated characters do not consider themselves heroes, though they do heroic things. They consider themselves adventurers with an ambiguous moral code. In honestly, I've not really encountered any thief-types who claim to be heroes outside of those who WOULD BE considered heroic (albeit forgotten heroes) through their efforts against Garlemald, specifically during The Battle of Carteneau. Even the darkest shade of grey has people they want to fight for.
This. QFT.
EDIT: Also, given the scope of the community, I'm sure every one here has something they don't want to deal with again due to prior experiences. But no one's forcing anyone to roleplay or interact with those people/things either....which just goes back to the point of people having fun in a variety of ways with a variety of characters.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - FreelanceWizard - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 03:04 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm not sure there is a such thing as a "noble thief" unless you are INCREDIBLY thorough. The idea of a noble thief falls mainly on the archetype created by Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor.
"Noble thief" is just a term for a character archetype in a narrative structure. We could call it "Type 4B Thief Archetype" for all that it matters.
Whether a character is a "noble thief" depends largely on the story in which he exists. If VI were told from the Empire's perspective, Locke would be a murderous brigand seeking to tear down society and create chaos -- a magical terrorist, if you will. (Which, I might add, would be a sweet antagonist concept in XIV.)It all comes down to perception and degree, which is why I don't think you can make value judgments on a character's behaviors in a vacuum. Stealing doesn't make you Evil, no more than Killing Bad Guys makes you Good. In fact, depending on your point of view, Killing Bad Guys may make you no better than they are.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Hywel Pendragon - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 03:08 PM)Heinrich Foust Wrote: Just to clear things up a bit, I have no problem with people roleplaying villains and the like as long as they have made the case clear that is what they are aiming to do. My issue is with people who think they're playing a hero while at the same time committing regular acts of evil against innocents. I've had to deal with that non-sense when playing Dungeons and Dragons before, and I don't want to have to deal with it again. It was almost like these guys thought that because their hero was able to walk into someone's house and loot it for hi-potions in some previous game they played on the DS or something that it is perfectly alright to do so in an actual role playing situation.
....
I somehow doubt that these characters are going to be going around and stealing from people/organizations and then claiming in all honesty that they are 'Heroes'. (And if they did and my character KNOWS that they are nothing of the like, she'd most likely point it out IC.) As Sienna pointed out about their character, they may do some heroic things but are also ambiguous on their morals and would just call themselves adventurers or something of the like.
My own character is very much like this.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Dameon - 08-05-2013
I think the definition of Noble Thieves has to do more with honor and having a code they follow that protects certain people and factions often considered protected by a sense of morality.
Like...never murder women and children, or steal from people that are considered lower class (with a few exceptions like...they stole from people even poorer than them, or they work for a greater evil (then you tend to only steal a certain object in relation to their station)). Only take what you need to survive.
It's not easily definable in every situation, of course.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - ArmachiA - 08-05-2013
My entire guild in 1.0 (And TOR) was based on thievery. We were an underground society that.. uh.. commandeered artifacts, weapons, information from old caves, ruins... people's houses... in order to supply them to ourselves. Some of our ranks had noble goals, they were looking for past artifacts that were stolen from their order and they were... stealing them back. Some of us just wanted the money the thing could bring.
Currently, we are a guild that is looking for power by any means necessary in order to protect Eorzea from another Calamity. Sounds pretty noble, but we actually do mean by any means necessary. Lying, cheating, stealing... we aren't above what is needed to be done to make sure Garlemald doesn't get a one up on us and that we can stand our ground against all the Bahamuts. We do not work with the Grand Companies, or in any official capacity and fully expect people to see us as wrong on the outside looking in.
We are Chaotic Good
We do not consider ourselves villains.
Come at me, brah
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Yini Kihn - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 02:30 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: "Property" itself is a concept born largely of a materialistic culture, and I think it's important to recognize that.
I don't even think you'll get agreement on that.
Property, from my perspective, is a fundamental consequence of human nature and natural rights. If you don't have a right to the food you grow, the clothes you make, or the shelter you've constructed, you necessarily don't have a right to live as all of those things are prerequisites. To say property is a concept born of a materialistic culture completely neglects this basic fact of reality.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - FreelanceWizard - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 03:45 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: We are Chaotic Good
We do not consider ourselves villains.
This is why I hate D&D alignments.
CG totally doesn't describe the totality of your group; alignments wash all of the nuances away. (I love your FC concept, by the way. )In the Palladium system, I'd class your group as Scrupulous to Unprincipled -- doing good, but willing to do the Hard Stuff necessary to achieve that end. Good Is Not Soft, after all. I like Palladium alignments a bit better, but I'm still not a fan of alignment systems in general because they try to apply objectivity to something that's just not objective.
As with any alignment system, I have to stretch the definitions to make it work here.EDIT: Palladium's alignment system, for those who don't know what I'm talking about.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Myxie Tryxle - 08-05-2013
As far as the D&D alignment system goes, theft is a chaotic act in that it's breaking the law or established rules of order, and even this is dependent on the character and their circumstances. Whether or not it's evil is debatable and situational. The evil distinction has a lot to do with whether or not you consider or care about the repercussions of the crime. I can imagine an entire spectrum of theft acts in the D&D sense.
Chaotic Good - Robin Hood; stealing from the corrupt politicians to ease the suffering of the common folk
Chaotic Neutral - stealing the purse from a noble or successful merchant, someone who can weather the loss without suffering hardship
Chaotic Evil - stealing the donations box from a orphanage
Lawful Good/Neutral - spying on a corrupt or evil government to steal their state secrets
Lawful Evil - Sheriff of Nottingham; using a position of power to profit off of others' work or suffering through means like excessive taxation
There's a reason the rogue class in D&D doesn't have alignment restrictions. It states that they are more likely to be chaotic than lawful and states nothing about good or evil. Whether or not a rogue is a thief and how their particular brand of theft affects their alignment is open to interpretation based on the players, and will vary from game to game.
(08-05-2013, 03:53 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: I like Palladium alignments a bit better, but I'm still not a fan of alignment systems in general because they try to apply objectivity to something that's just not objective.
EDIT: Palladium's alignment system, for those who don't know what I'm talking about.
I think the problem with most alignment systems appears when people try to make them objective when they're actually subjective. You have to consider the act, its reasoning/justification on the part of the character, how the character reacts to its repercussions, and even how your unique group of players views morality. Alignments used well lead to interesting and dynamic characters with difficult choices and dilemmas. Though I do agree that it's difficult or impossible to build a system that can capture any and every possible nuance.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - ArmachiA - 08-05-2013
The only reason I use them is it because it makes it easier to explain the guild as a whole than typing out a paragraph every time. They can just look up Chaotic Good on TV tropes or whatever and get a general idea. It gets very hard to constantly go
"We help Eorzea."
"So your good?"
"Well, if saving Eorzea meant throwing 100 babies in a Volcano, we would probably do that."
"So your bad?"
"Well..."
forever and ever and ever ahem.
I'm still not a hundred percent sure I have the right idea on our own guild recruitment thread... it's a process XD
(Thanks for liking the theme, I wasn't sure how it would go over generally)
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Momoji Momochi - 08-05-2013
After having taken a few hours away from this and looking over what I wrote, it looks like I ended up letting past experiences (bad ones) get the better of me after reading some stuff on the forums (which I misunderstood for something else). If I were to remake the thread, I would have focused more on the real issue I'm thinking about, which is keeping characters consistent with their own values, and titled the thread accordingly. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the difficulties of immature players who end up trying to push the limits of others or doing crazy stuff for fun rather than role play, and I ended up getting reminded of that stuff and getting set off. Anyway, I apologize for coming off as so opinionated, as this is not how I normally act or think.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - ArmachiA - 08-05-2013
It's cool, sometimes RPing can be especially frustrating. We've all had bad experiences (My guild has the RULE OF SEVEN based on a particularly bad event). There are a lot of times I want to vent my frustration, sometimes ya just need to do that.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - LandStander - 08-05-2013
Down with the bourgeoisie! Uh, what? Wrong forum? *quietly leaves the thread* >.>