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+--- Thread: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement (/showthread.php?tid=10492)
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Melodia - 03-09-2015
I play the game and know none of my DPS numbers. Not one. I just do my rotations and actions.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Sounsyy - 03-09-2015
So, I'm sure it's been said plenty of times about me, but I'm more than willing to admit I am a PVE elitist. Does the word have a generally negative connotation, yes, but I don't necessarily think Elitism has to be a bad thing. I think it's simply a mindset that most people will fall into after they've been doing something for a considerable amount of time.
My main roles in XIV are Tank and Healer, with occasional forays into DPS (BRD mainly, hopefully MCH soon). I consider myself a Career WAR - someone who has put in a lot of time extensively researching, number crunching, and trial&erroring the best possible ways to play the class to my ability. Now, I certainly don't expect everyone to do this for their respective classes, but when I'm doing DF/PF content with strangers, I think it's important to put your best foot forward. To me, that means putting in an honest effort. Like, giving it at least 80-90%, even if it's a class you aren't completely familiar with, perhaps even especially if it is a class you aren't familiar with. At the very least, read your ability descriptions! Know what your basic abilities do and do not do, and what they combo with. That's the first step.
Cuz it's not just your $12.95, it's also the $12.95 of everyone else you're partied with. And I feel that if you don't want to even try because you're "just a DPS" or "It's LotA, chill" or you're the DPS in AK-HM who expects the healer to keep them up through first boss' lazerbeam of doom so they can crunch in more DPS, then maybe I should just not try as a Tank. If you just want to spam 1-2-3 and not move... how would you like it if I just sat there and did my Storm's Path rotation for the entirety of the dungeon and pulled with provoke? Everyone appreciates a good tank. Tanks appreciate a good party. Everyone has something to bring to the party, try to bring it, even if it is LotA.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Boo the Hamster - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 11:51 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:For talking about ninja abilities, I'm surprised you don't list Fuma Shuriken, as it's the only ninjutsu ability right now that is boosted from either venom, and doesn't eat into your GCD. Arguably, it is on par, if not better than Raiton currently depending on latency so long as it's not under the effect of kessatsu.(03-09-2015, 11:43 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: Also Doton , I find the damage ratio to be better than Raiton sometimes and I am always Doton/Katon person over Raiton anytime.
To self-demonstrate what some people will undoubtedly find elitist (and I'm sorry for this being "aimed" at you specifically, Anelia):
Doton: 30 potency over 24 seconds/8 ticks for 240 potency
Katon: 180 potency immediately
Raiton: 360 Potency, single target
360 > 240 > 180. Use Raiton on bosses. Doton only beats Katon after 18 seconds of uptime.
Either way, I feel Elitism seems to have a nasty blend of being in cliques than it is in general RP. In fact, I've seen more of that eyebrow raising RP than seeing people go 'Oh, you can't do that because of X/Y/Z' OOC, at least to me or someone else. When it comes to closed RP, there is always the unspoken rule and do's and don'ts that are typically followed. Unfortunately, those rules that either someone else established whether through logical explanation or a flat rule tends to bleed into RP outside of that group. When that rule is broken, there is constant backlash, both passive aggressive and directly, and it's a rather tiring attitude to see. This is something I do see nearly all the time, and trying to have someone realize such is mostly futile. All one can really do about it is accept it, or walk away. Your choice really.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Mercurias - 03-09-2015
Normally my concept of Elitism tends to revolve around a person in endgame who actually treats others with disdain if they aren't able to keep up to a certain, above-average standard. This is different, however, from the kind of group who badgers one of their static to improve so the raid can progress. I'm referring to the sort of person who will purposefully insult or belittle others purely based on their ability to play video games.Â
And for the record, I believe you can absolutely be elite without being an elitist. They key is the belief that you're better than everyone else and have the right to look down on them.
In RP, I do not believe that holding someone to a high lore standard is considered elitism any more than I consider a person going off into their own canon to be an elitist. They're just different and incompatible ways to RP. Lore compliance is a personal preference because it allows different characters to mesh easily into one another's stories without a lot of problems.
I do not believe that questioning a person's implausible story counts as elitism either. I like plausible stories. Honestly, my main in this game is implausible enough that it makes me wince sometimes, and I occasionally feel I'm making the best of a bad job.
It is also not elitist to expect a person to use the shift key and punctuation. Normally I greatly prefer good spelling, but one of my best RP friends in CoH was actually dyslexic and struggled. I adored her, though, and I'd sit there and try to find out what she meant if it freaking took all night. Believable standards, please.
So yeah, elitism is more about attitude to me than it is whether or not you're actually good at something, and the second you start to sneer at a person for struggling with their DPS or having to deal with lore problems from when they made the character eight months ago, you're being an elitist d-bag.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Kage - 03-09-2015
An example of what I've seen as RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Mercurias - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Kage Wrote: An example of RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
Good to know, Kage.Â
It is now time to introduce my newest alt, O'namona Tia.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Kage - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 02:46 PM)Mercurias Wrote:I'm sorry, but am I being mocked right now?(03-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Kage Wrote: An example of RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
Good to know, Kage.Â
It is now time to introduce my newest alt, O'namona Tia.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Chris Ganale - 03-09-2015
I'm 80% certain that name is a pun on onomatopoeia.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Mercurias - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 02:50 PM)Kage Wrote:Mocked with love, Kage. <3(03-09-2015, 02:46 PM)Mercurias Wrote:I'm sorry, but am I being mocked right now?(03-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Kage Wrote: An example of RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
Good to know, Kage.Â
It is now time to introduce my newest alt, O'namona Tia.
I personally agree that some names don't always work. A lot of the time players will just state that they chose a new name after leaving home in order to work around it. Names don't make the character or the RP.
And yes, Chris, it was an onomatopoeia pun.
Buh dum ksh.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Warren Castille - 03-09-2015
Names are sometimes hit or miss. I don't mind if I'm talking to a miqo'te named John Farmer or something, since Eorzea's a world where folks come from all over (and I probably don't care about your backstory so much as I do about our interactions) but even I sometimes raise an eyebrow at how seriously to take someone who walks up with the name X'treem B'uttpuncha.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Gegenji - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 03:02 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Names are sometimes hit or miss. I don't mind if I'm talking to a miqo'te named John Farmer or something, since Eorzea's a world where folks come from all over (and I probably don't care about your backstory so much as I do about our interactions) but even I sometimes raise an eyebrow at how seriously to take someone who walks up with the name X'treem B'uttpuncha.
I will never forget you, Butt Golem.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Edgar - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Kage Wrote: An example of what I've seen as RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
Koporo Aporo was initially a Plainsfolk, and as such his name used Plainsfolk naming conventions.
When I used fantasia to retcon him into Jajara's clan as a Dunesfolk, I forgot that you couldn't change the name.
Now, poor Kopo has an incorrect name and everyone knows him BY THAT NAME and changing it would be a difficult process...
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - ArmachiA - 03-09-2015
I get called an Elitist for preferring my guild and the people in it stick to lore as closely as possible. The thing is... we're not that strict when it comes to the murky bits (We don't know everything about the Twelve, we don't know everything about the void, we really don't know exactly how Ul'dah is ran) so it's completely okay to bend the lore around the parts that are... fuzzy. We have a voidtouched THM in the guild, my character been possessed by a voidsent, our guild has stolen Allagan artifacts from nonexistent ruins, raided nonexistent Castrums, Have a 100 year old mages soul trapped in a book. All of these things aren't in lore, but we use Inductive logic to see if it would be possible. If it is, just go do it man. The only time we're super strict is when the lore is clearly written in black and white of what it can and cannot be. That's it.
We're not even mean about it, if you don't want to follow lore - you don't have to. You just can't be in our guild. We've had people whine at us and say it was unfair - since we also do endgame and some non-lore compliant rpers just wanted a slot on our raid team - but we all agreed to these rules and it's unfair to let someone who doesn't follow them in.
I think actual elitism is bad. I've actually seen it, even if this game. I've had people around me believe that if you didn't write a paragraph a response - complete with inner thoughts and feelings - that you were a bad rper. I had to tell them over and over again, it's a different style - some people are into dialogue RP and don't feel the need to get deep into it, and others do. It's just style and has no bearing on how good you are or aren't. I've had some people chastise me for not spelling something correctly (I'm a fast typer and tend to typo) and that made me a bad RPer... for a typo. There are people running around who look for "Good" or "Bad" rpers, because they want to feel superior. Those people exist and they kinda suck... but not everyone is like that. I don't think a lot of them are like that. It takes too much energy too worry about how bad someone else is.
Elitism is gaming: I'm in Final Coil with my guild, and it's really the only time I have a high expectation. Dungeons are generally easy, and unless you're a huge derp I don't really mind much. In Coil though, I expect my team to learn the mechanics, gear up every week, and learn their jobs. I don't really care that much about DPS unless we aren't hitting a dps check - since I used to have a pretty low DPS back in the day and caught a lot of flack for it despite the fact we were clearing, I tend to be more sympathetic to it even though my DPS is really high now.
I do get annoyed wen I get into a farm party for a Primal or something and it's pretty clear someone got in for a carry >.> Like, dude I just say you die 4 times in the first run of Shiva Ex, you shouldn't be here. BUT if it's a clear party I don't mind.
For me my gaming elitism absolutely is determined by context.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Kage - 03-09-2015
(03-09-2015, 04:01 PM)Edgar Wrote:(03-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Kage Wrote: An example of what I've seen as RP elitism:
Mocking people for what they named their characters, RP or PVE-wise. No matter if it's straight up fanboying, non-lore compliant, or joke name. You don't know the history behind it. For a year? ish, the only way to change your name is if you server transferred with a 3 days' space in between. For some, that is just not doable (Raid for example). And then for some, they've been RPing with that non-lore compliant name for months that you just can't retcon their name into something that does comply with lore.
Though, I do have the right to raise a small questioning quircked eyebrow when your name is made to be political inciting (George Zimmerman, e.g) but I will never mock you.
Koporo Aporo was initially a Plainsfolk, and as such his name used Plainsfolk naming conventions.
When I used fantasia to retcon him into Jajara's clan as a Dunesfolk, I forgot that you couldn't change the name.
Now, poor Kopo has an incorrect name and everyone knows him BY THAT NAME and changing it would be a difficult process...
There's no way for me to retcon Kage's name, though it would help me with SO MANY THINGS.
Even if his name not being lore compliant had never even came up, I just can't change his name now. @_@ I spent so many months with it and it's just... how the hell can you even rectify it? IMO you can't really and you just gotta RP with people who don't "care" about that little tiny snafu.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - BlackmoreKnight - 03-09-2015
In gameplay, my 'elitism' varies, as it were, depending on the content I'm doing and how much I've been doing that content. For my expert and high-level queues, I generally expect everyone to put in at least 80%. I tank pretty much exclusively so a lot of the speed of the dungeon is on me, which I like. If a DPS is obviously fucking up rotations or eating things it shouldn't be eating, it definitely sours my mood, though I don't call it out. It does leave me irritated for the next queue though, which can lead to spirals. I also get irked when I see healers not pushing DPS when I'm perfeclty healthy and not in any danger of dying or getting to dangerous HP levels in the near future. At this point you're just making the dungeon take five minutes longer so yeah, I'll get angry at you. Healer DPSing is a core conceit of the game and I expect you to make use of it if it seems a viable option.
In Extreme primals I generally expect everyone to know the fight. If you're DFing into Shiva EX, know what the hell you're doing at least on a base level. Otherwise you are wasting the time of seven other people if you've never read a guide or watched a video or anything. Again, Id on't call people out on this, I just vote abandon if it looks ot be a fail group, and outright leave if that fails and it seems hopeless. I'm good at internalizing my anger, at least. I can eat the half-hour penalty fine.
Funnily enough, my true salt comes from Odin. I just cannot have a healthy experience DFing that bastard. I am a 123 WAR with strength accessories. I should not be out-DPSing all of the DPS. Why am I out-DPSing all of the DPS, damn it. That fight has a DPS check that's way too fucking tight for DF, and it fills me with salt whenever I try to run it. What makes it worse is that PFs for Odin very rarely fill. At least the Demon set looks great, or else I'd be lost on what plate glamour to use. Ugh. Fuck that fight, and fuck anyone that queues into it as DPS and does sub-200 damage. Odin is the one DF that you can tell within two minutes if it's goign to be mathematically feasible or not. Yes, I parse DFs. No I don't mention it in-game, I'm not an idiot.
Finally, I lead a static that's currently at T9. Since I bill it as semi-casual, I'm more lenient on them for mistakes and learning/improvement than I am in DFs for easier content. My expectations for my static are consistent improvement in gear and rotation knowledge, continued development in fight knowledge and memorization, and above all consistent attendance. I can shove competency down your throat 90% of the time. I can't if you don't even show up. We'ev only been a static for a couple of weeks so I haven't had to have any competency-related talks with anyone yet, but if you fuck up for days on end on the same mechanic, ten times a night, we'll have issues and we'll talk. I have fast learners so far, at least. Just need to get a solidified group of consistent showers.
Basically, it boils down to the fact that as tank, I have a surprisingly light load in 85% of fights. So I get to stare and watch everyone else do their thing, and judge them when they fail, and get salty when those failures cause wipes that had no business happening. It's a unique aspect of tanking when you get comfortable with it and the fight. We don't 'do' too much most of the time, which means our job is 'stand there and pray everyone else doesn't suck'.