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+--- Thread: Is this common for tanks? (/showthread.php?tid=11631)
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Edda - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 03:25 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:Hahahahahaha. Good stuff. No, I'm not joking.(05-16-2015, 02:00 AM)Edda Wrote: *snipped for length*
You're... joking, right?
If it was a healer's job to DPS, then they would be queued as such in duty finder, or at least given the option to do so.
As it stands now, this is not how the game is designed, thus if you are WHM or SCH, your first and foremost priority should be the safety and well-being of your fellow party members. If you don't feel comfortable DPSing, then don't. There's no reason to take a risk just because you can and frankly there's very little I can think of more frustrating than watching some wannabe BLM spam Holy over and over while everyone else burns.
If there's a reasonable window to switch into Cleric's, then sure, go for it, but it's not a requirement by any means, nor does it shirk one from what they were brought there to do in the first place just because the option is available.
It's selfish attitudes like this that push our potential healers away from ever picking up a cane or grimoire. No one deserves to be abused for having what ultimately amounts to a cautious play style, much less so if they're wiling to endure what is, in my opinion, the most selfless role one can ever play in an RPG.
--Signed, a frequent stance dancer
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn is a video game. Healing is a certain way of playing said video game, not some righteous vocation that will award you 72 virgins after your death. True, there is no requirement for DPSing as a healer. But there is a large difference between being cautious and/or learning, and being lazy (SCHs in low levels on follow, I'm looking at you). In farmable, out-geared, daily content, just standing around and healing is quite possibly one of the most braindead experiences FFXIV has to offer. If people don't want to explore how to make their favorite role more fun and exciting for themselves, that's on them.
No healer in this game was birthed from the womb a Master Stance Dancer. These things take practice, and the knowledge that yeah, it's totally okay to pop Clerics and go HAM if your tank is geared to the teeth and you're bored out of your god damn mind. How many low level roulettes have you done where the clearly new healer just stands there waiting for the tank to drop below the 90% threshold? More often than not, encouraging them to do something other than idling will yield positive results. You would be surprised how many people do not know that it's normal and okay to be a holy-spamming, stone II cold killer on the side.
Tank can't take a hit? You're undergeared for new content? Laggy connection? Fine, play it safe. Nothing wrong with that. But coddling people into not challenging themselves is just... why. I understand this is the RPC and not Leddit, but even RPers deserve the chance to go out and try a different play style in PvE with the role they love. No reason to not attain even greater heights as a healer!
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Cato - 05-16-2015
Experimentation can be a lot of fun. As a DRG I've even done some off-tanking for the hell of it during low level content if the tank is undergeared and/or struggling to tackle a large group of enemies.
Being able to adapt and think outside of the box is very important. It's also excellent preparation for high end content where every role may expected to do more than just stand around and tank/DPS/heal.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kasumi Gakunin - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 02:00 AM)Edda Wrote:(05-16-2015, 01:22 AM)Lacey Orwell Wrote: Anyroad, I just stopped dpsing and focused on healing cause that's my job and personally I hate it when Healers dps and don't bother healing till I'm almost dead (I run paladin on occasion).WHY.
Here is a mentality I will never understand. Here you are, a White Mage, with so many spells at your disposal. And you do not want, or want anyone else, to use half of them. Why? "Durrrr we have DPS skills so we can do solo MSQ stuff and that's it." WRONG. White Mages have one purpose, and one purpose only: MASS DESTRUCTION. Regen is just a bonus.
Trust your healers to know when/how to DPS. No one likes a kid that stands there with their thumbs up their ass waiting for the tank to take damage. Everyone likes completing a dungeon 10-15 minutes ahead of schedule.
Remember Sylphie, from the CNJ quest lines? Of course you do. At no point in those quests was Sylphie ever an example of what-to-do as a healer. This quote is no exception. It was our job as the Warrior of Light to show Sylphie how to heal properly, as well as, for lack of a better phrase: "fuck shit up." Does this quote not scream "ignorant snot-nosed brat" to you? Because it sure does to me. One day Sylphie will be running WP HM and she will have to make a choice - wait for the DRG and MNK she got paired with to finish off a mass pull and wait for her MP to drain as the tank gets crapped on waiting for the mobs to die? Or go manmode and blast their butts to the Seventh Hell with a few well-placed holys?
DPSing as a healer is your job, whether you like it or not. Not that this is directed at you personally Lacey, but seriously all you heal-only healers out there, laziness is a sin. And if you're tanking and die because your healer was going HAM, well... at least it was for a good cause.
/rant
![[Image: vBBN2pt.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/vBBN2pt.jpg)
I have no problem with that. I main scholar on my alt so I'm happy to dps when I can but when a tank walks in with str gear it's time to take a step back and focus on healing until he's not taking that much damage. My problem is while I was leveling paladin I ran into a bunch of whm who only dpsed until I died...over and over and over >.< It's all about finding a good balance.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Sounsyy - 05-16-2015
(05-15-2015, 11:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:(05-15-2015, 10:58 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (and also provides higher mitigation than VIT)For the record, the difference is like 2% more parry damage reduction for 100 more Str, which is... not a lot, and it's not like you're parrying anywhere close to 100% of attacks anyway.
On its own, yes, 2-3% is marginal. However, 2-3% is still greater mitigation than 0%, which is what VIT offers. But when looking at the grand total of STR benefits versus the grand total of VIT benefits, the difference is rather stark.
i130 VIT Accessories: 135 VIT = 1,957 HP
i130 STR Accessories: 115 STR = 2-3% Parry strength, and the equivalent of adding 1,020 Determination. (1 STR = 8 DTR)
At i130 WAR, I have 9000 HP with my STR set. I do not run FCOB in any VIT gear. Echo gives me all the HP I need now. If I swapped to VIT gear, I'd have 11000 HP. There's no fight in this game where I need to have a base HP of 11,000 HP. If a healer cannot swap from Cleric Stance off in time to cast a 1.5s Cure spell in the time it takes 9000 HP to drop to 0 HP, then the extra 2k will do nothing for me. Just delay my death another 2 seconds.
At least with STR I can parry for 31% (which happens fairly frequently even without an ounce of Parry stat), I can self heal very efficiently, and I can put out a good deal of damage. Bloodbath + Overpower or Steel Cyclone provides a great HP return with STR. If I hit 10 mobs with a 400 dmg Overpower, I've self-healed 1,000 HP and I can spam this (if I wanted to) every 3 seconds. My Steel Cyclone hits for between 600-900. 10 mobs returns 2250 HP. Not to mention hitting an average 1000 Inner Beasts non buffed and average 800 Storm's Paths.
It's all about maximizing your playstyle and using all of the resources at your disposal. If you, as a STR tank, sit on your ass and never pop cooldowns and never take advantage of having STR gear (ie PLDs who only use Flash and never actually use their combos or WARs who don't self heal) then there's not much point. It's no different than playing a healer who only heals and never DPSes.
7/17 WHM abilities are DPS skills. 9/17 SCH abilities are DPS skills. This is 40-60% of your abilities are DPS focused, and you wanna tell me that your only job is to heal? No, this is like a MNK or WAR who only uses one combo tree on repeat. You are only playing your job at 50%. Heal to keep your tank up, then damage when your tank is not in danger. SCH have it easy, a roused Selene can keep a big pulling tank up solo for the most part with only the occasional Lustrate thrown in at 50% HP. The rest of the time I'm in cleric stance blasting dps. WHM can keep Holy spamming in Cleric and Benediction at ~30% HP and continue DPSing until tank hits low again.
If you are new or uncomfortable with this concept, the only way you'll actually get good at it is practice. Play it safe... but to play it safe, you still have to play with it. Practice DPSing in between cures and swapping cleric stance on and off. The more you do it, the better you'll get at it. If a tank instantly drops to 0 at the start of a big pull... that's not your fault. That's a tank who is either woefully undergeared (IL not STR) or did not pop any cooldowns, as for some reason speed run tanks are wont to do. If you pull 15 mobs as a PLD, you sure as hell better be popping Hallowed Ground when you stop. Gives your healer time to DPS, tank to get hate instead of ripping hate cuz curebomb, and it prevents tank from insta dying. There's not a single boss fight in any dungeon you need to be saving Hallowed Ground for anyways, so use it when you are actually at risk of dying.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kasumi Gakunin - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 07:10 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:I usually do the cleric stance dance fine. I only bothered to look at his gear when I noted a dramatic drop in hp at the beginning of when he stopped pulling after I put up my first set of buffs and I went to do my first aoe attack. He most likely wasn't using his cool downs in retrospect.(05-15-2015, 11:32 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:(05-15-2015, 10:58 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: (and also provides higher mitigation than VIT)For the record, the difference is like 2% more parry damage reduction for 100 more Str, which is... not a lot, and it's not like you're parrying anywhere close to 100% of attacks anyway.
On its own, yes, 2-3% is marginal. However, 2-3% is still greater mitigation than 0%, which is what VIT offers. But when looking at the grand total of STR benefits versus the grand total of VIT benefits, the difference is rather stark.
-snip-
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Unnamed Mercenary - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 03:25 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(05-16-2015, 02:00 AM)Edda Wrote: *snipped for length*
You're... joking, right?
If it was a healer's job to DPS, then they would be queued as such in duty finder, or at least given the option to do so.
As it stands now, this is not how the game is designed, thus if you are WHM or SCH, your first and foremost priority should be the safety and well-being of your fellow party members. If you don't feel comfortable DPSing, then don't. There's no reason to take a risk just because you can and frankly there's very little I can think of more frustrating than watching some wannabe BLM spam Holy over and over while everyone else burns.
If there's a reasonable window to switch into Cleric's, then sure, go for it, but it's not a requirement by any means, nor does it shirk one from what they were brought there to do in the first place just because the option is available.
It's selfish attitudes like this that push our potential healers away from ever picking up a cane or grimoire. No one deserves to be abused for having what ultimately amounts to a cautious play style, much less so if they're wiling to endure what is, in my opinion, the most selfless role one can ever play in an RPG.
--Signed, a frequent stance dancer
You know you and bypass the role restrictions for anything in the Duty Finder, right?
Also, WHMs can kick ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VkeSCSFoWc
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Gegenji - 05-16-2015
I ran a couple level 50 dungeons with a PLD, a WHM, and two SCHs.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kellach Woods - 05-16-2015
Speaking of the "fuck VIT" playstyle, I really hope they fix that in Heavensward. 'cause at this point there's no point in VIT unless they put tank one shot mechanics unless you've stacked VIT, and that's not exactly fun gameplay.
Dunno how they would fix it other than removing VIT accessories altogether, but y'know.
But yeah, alternative playstyles are quite interesting to explore. if I had time, I'd probably make the Worst Relic In The History of The Sultansworn on an alt - A Excaegis combo with nothing but Determination, Piety and Spell Speed, using Cure as a mitigation/aggro tool. This wouldn't be for raiding purposes obviously, but for some fun. (It'd also fit my Laladin alt's mentality but bullshit I'm gonna get 50 and relic on her before Heavensward drop)
Cleric Stance Dance on SCH is MAGICAL. Not only for all the damage, but Energy Drain's MP restore is based entirely on the damage you do, so in the case you don't need the Aetherflow heal, that's another way to restore MP.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - C'kayah Polaali - 05-16-2015
Keep in mind, with all the advice that "good healers DPS", that the OP was leveling towards 30, running a level 28 dungeon. The implication is she's a new-ish healer and she's probably running that dungeon for the first time. At those levels, with the sort of haphazard gearing she probably has*, trying too hard to DPS is a recipe for running out of mana.
Endgame is one thing. You're running the same content over and over. You're used to the fights. You know when you can switch stances and start lobbing out damage and when you have to focus on healing. Low level? I'd far prefer to run dungeons at those levels with a healer who simply heals competently.
*No offense intended - I certainly don't spend a bunch of cash on solid gear for those levels, either.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Qhora Bajihri - 05-16-2015
I've actually been told by people in low level roulettes to stay out of cleric stance. What? So when you get yelled at for healing too much, then get yelled at for trying to help DPS, it's like okay monitor goes out the window.
I think the point that doesn't need pushy insults to get across is: don't do nothing. If you're doing nothing, you're not really playing the game. You're sitting on the rest of the group. Healing a tank that's full on health is equivalent to nothing.
I'm generally quite cautious. I do a lot of DF and roulettes, and I will not switch to cleric until I trust the group isn't going to be lunacy, i.e. until I get bored, because I don't like being bored either. If the tank stays at full health most of the time but then drops suddenly to 10% (goddamn beeeees), I'm going to sit there with my trigger finger on a heal rather than switch, because I'm not bored, I'm freaking out. These days there are plenty of tanks who can handle a fairy and nothing else, but still, I don't have blind faith. I heal until I know I have the room to do the extras.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Jana - 05-16-2015
When leveling CNJ/WHM, I was able to DPS stancedance through Haukke Manor, but then had to focus on healing primarily until I completed my sentence Relic. At that point, tanks had gear that didn't match their levels, the dungeons got harder, and my ability to swap stances to DPS and heal wasn't quite fast enough. Anyone who knows anything about me is that I heavily favor DPS in PvE, and I loooovvve when healers can help DPS stuff down, but a healer's primary function is to heal. If there's trouble keeping tanks up for whatever reason, DPS suffering a bit isn't that big of a deal when priorities are kept straight.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Fox - 05-16-2015
I'd have to agree with C'kayah and Qhora as well as Hauntmedoitagain where healing is concerned.
In C'kayah's vein- OP is under 50 and is not at end game. Healing is very important in these dungeons where people are actually new, and yeah there are still a lot of new players.
Your first priority is to heal. Period. That's your role that SE deemed, otherwise we would have a choice to roll as a DPS- and I don't mean breaking it the finder which you can as it is said above. But before someone goes "oh you're one of those WHM", note I said 'first priority'.
IF I can DPS, I will, but it is not my primary focus. I am not a glorified DPS, I am not a Holy spammer... -Until- I can have the time and only if I have the mana to spare. I spam holy a lot during fate grinding and when I can elsewhere. I actually like holy a lot, I think it's a very beautiful skill. Luckily, I run with a BRD so this allows me to do it a lot more.
However; this also being said I am not at end game. If you're geared out the arse, you're bored, etc, etc, then feel free to do so.
But others do not have to do this. If they want to mostly focus on healing, then so be it. If people want to play cautious then that's playing cautious. That's not being a bad-anything. People have different play styles.
I personally will offer DPS where I can, yes- I'm not at end game or whatever, but I have been in instances where I would have been bored if I did not help out on DPS.
Though I will have to agree to disagree that the main job of a WHM is to 'MASS DESTROY'. Main job is to keep your party alive. This is not to say you should stand there with your thumb up your arse.
I believe we can all agree on that if you can spare the DPS do it. But if I'm personally running a DF or if I'm running randoms, etc, like Qhora I will not play around in stancing.
WHM/CNJ catch a lot of flack, it's a thankless job and you either get yelled at for healing or dpsing, and frankly it gets very... Very old.
EDIT: However, if you're running a full raid- and you only need one or two out of the 8 or 24 healing? By all means please DPS out the arse.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Gone. - 05-16-2015
I don't care if you can break duty finder with a pre-made, nor do I care about dated Coil experiences, something most players have and will never, ever touch (thanks in no due to part to some of the attitudes witnessed here). I don't even care about DPS numbers on anything that isn't a DPS class. These are exceptions and do not define the game as a whole.
I do, however, believe we should welcome anyone willing to play a healer and offer gentle advice should they need it, not harass them into submission for our own selfish desires. Not everyone learns in the same way or at the same pace; it has to do be done on that player's time or not at all.
People chastise me for not bothering to look up videos and the like for various encounters. That doesn't work for me in the slightest; it goes in one way and right out the other. The only way I'm able to master a game is by building that first-hand experience through trial and error as I've done for the past couple of decades. No amount of vitriol is going to change how my mind learns, end of story. The same goes for anyone else.
If situations such as those are somehow beyond your empathy and comprehension, then please do the entire community a favor by sticking with your pre-mades and not random pick-ups from duty finder. Everyone will be a lot happier this way. Promise.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Melkire - 05-16-2015
I'm curious as to why the topic has swung towards healers... the issue as put forth by the original post was very much a matter of the tank taking unusually hard hits from trash mobs.
I ran a Low Level Roulette today as a 28 CNJ and got sorted into a Sastasha. Mind you, I know how and when to stance dance properly. The tank got on my case for using Fluid Aura (bitch, I forgot that the Coeurl isnt immune to it, and pushing Madison closer to the dog cage is next level shit), so I decided to keep an eye on him to see what HE was doing wrong.
Not one cooldown used. Ever.
When questioned, his response was "I dont see a point to using CDs on trash."
...
...
I kindly informed him that using his offensive and defensive cooldowns on trash would speed up the run by allowing him and I to contribute to DPS more, and that they'd be back up long before we reached a boss anyway. Those words fell on deaf ears.
He didnt use a single CD until we reached Orca or w/e the final boss' name is.
tl;dr: I find that new tanks are more often the problem than healers who want to DPS.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Warren Castille - 05-16-2015
No one expects someone to completely grasp mechanics from watching a video. It's good to give you an idea of what's in store, though.
I would kill myself if I had to let someone wipe to Allagan Rot a hundred times until they got it because they had no idea how the mechanic worked.