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+--- Thread: Is this common for tanks? (/showthread.php?tid=11631)
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Nebbs - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 07:29 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: ....
People chastise me for not bothering to look up videos and the like for various encounters. That doesn't work for me in the slightest; it goes in one way and right out the other. The only way I'm able to master a game is by building that first-hand experience through trial and error as I've done for the past couple of decades. No amount of vitriol is going to change how my mind learns, end of story. The same goes for anyone else.
....
I'm the same, I have to learn the "dance" in the dungeon, and I do, I get better each go, I only have T13 to clear (I have been maining as SCH). But most people want you to have encyclopaedic knowledge and know what to do.. often those people have already progressed further than you so assume you know too.
This selfish gear/win focus in PvE is what I think makes it tough as blame/expectation is high. I'd like to dungeon & raid with friends and progress as friends, not have friends become competitors.
I do like doing new content with no spoilers and learning the fights, then if/when you do see a video it makes more sense.
On the learning side, I am happy to help with that, I can bring a geared tank or healer to help someone learn things with out the fear of letting others down.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Melkire - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 07:48 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: No one expects someone to completely grasp mechanics from watching a video. It's good to give you an idea of what's in store, though.
I would kill myself if I had to let someone wipe to Allagan Rot a hundred times until they got it because they had no idea how the mechanic worked.
Disclaimer, I've yet to do Rot with anyone, but I imagine telling new people to "play hot potato with the debuff! always pass it to the same person!" would work well.... no?
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Warren Castille - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 07:52 PM)Melkire Wrote:(05-16-2015, 07:48 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: No one expects someone to completely grasp mechanics from watching a video. It's good to give you an idea of what's in store, though.
I would kill myself if I had to let someone wipe to Allagan Rot a hundred times until they got it because they had no idea how the mechanic worked.
Disclaimer, I've yet to do Rot with anyone, but I imagine telling new people to "play hot potato with the debuff! always pass it to the same person!" would work well.... no?
You would think that, yes. In practice it's a lot more difficult. People forget to count, or forget to move, or... just generally couldn't somehow manage watching a debuff. It's not pleasant to try and explain to a new person, and guaranteeing wipes until someone feels comfortable is the most stressful thing in the world for somebody trying to work towards progression.
I imagine it's the same for silencing ADS in Turn 1, or managing slugs. Instant-wipes if someone drops their role, and you only learn by doing. Going in blind is a death sentence to 1d100 attempts.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Edda - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 07:52 PM)Melkire Wrote:There are easier ways to do T2 if you are not cheesing it with enrage, but certain fights like T2 that require much more coordination than most can be difficult with random people that have never done it before. Same reason people find fights like Ramuh Ex harder (yep T13 with randoms >>>>> Ramuh with randoms, RIP in pieces). Everyone has a different way of learning fights; through trial and error, watching videos, reading explanations, having someone guide them through it, etc etc. Get a random DF group with people that have all different learning styles? Some people are going to lag behind the rest, and in a fight like T2 that's not gonna fly so good. Guiding 1-2 fresh sprouts through a fight is easy enough, but when the inexperienced are in the majority, ehhhh... It can be done, but the few experienced folk are liable to get impatient.(05-16-2015, 07:48 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: No one expects someone to completely grasp mechanics from watching a video. It's good to give you an idea of what's in store, though.
I would kill myself if I had to let someone wipe to Allagan Rot a hundred times until they got it because they had no idea how the mechanic worked.
Disclaimer, I've yet to do Rot with anyone, but I imagine telling new people to "play hot potato with the debuff! always pass it to the same person!" would work well.... no?
But hey if anyone wants to do T2 non-enrage HMU any time. If you like doing the Cha Cha Slide you will like T2: For Real. I am not sure at what point T2 enrages became a thing since I had to stop playing around 2.1, but I feel like a non-echo, pure mechanics run of First Coil might be a nice thing to add to a pre-3.0 bucket list, especially for people who joined after 2.1.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kellach Woods - 05-16-2015
I just want good written guides. Videos are often too shoddily made to even bother with it because you can't break down the fight consistently as you're doing it.
Ideally, to make a good raid video, you'd need everyone capturing it, and from then you could put together a damn good tutorial video after the fact. You'd also need to get some good screenshots and stuff.
And that is far more time consuming than anyone who raids actually cares to do.
Which is why I often ask for a written assessment - sadly even those are lacking.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Qhora Bajihri - 05-16-2015
(05-16-2015, 09:21 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Ideally, to make a good raid video, you'd need everyone capturing it, and from then you could put together a damn good tutorial video after the fact. You'd also need to get some good screenshots and stuff.
And that is far more time consuming than anyone who raids actually cares to do.
That would be amazing. And a sad truth. I do watch videos/read guides if I'm approaching a fight that's been around for a while or that I haven't done in a long, long time. I was gone for a few months, missed a patch's worth of dungeons, went and read up on them before jumping in. There's definitely a disparity, though, between reading someone's instructions and enacting them in the field. You know things, but you don't really know them, you know. If something's still brand spanking new content, I'm more willing to try winging it because I figure what guides are out there have basically zero polish at that point.
I'm actually very pro-doing-damage for healers. I just have that little faith in the average pick-up tank and am highly reluctant to go all out blasting until a few trash packs get me a feel for how much leeway I have to keep the group alive while contributing to damage output, how many risks the other party members take, how good the tank is with cooldowns, etc. I'm better at it than I used to be, though. I was an -always keep tank at 99%- healer when I was still learning. Now I'm usually like, eh, 50% health is good enough.
I think "don't do nothing" aka "please help keep the group moving" is on point for everyone really. It's obvious for DPS, but absolutely includes healers and tanks. Low level (any level) tanks who use none of their cooldowns whatsoever really aren't helping, and would definitely contribute to a situation like happened in the original post.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kellach Woods - 05-16-2015
Personally, if I'm not going 100% in a dungeon it's because I'm either testing something out, learning my rotation or I'm literally falling asleep at the keyboard.
The third is bad, but the other two are because I want to improve as a player and understand some of what makes the game tick.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Leomoon - 05-17-2015
(05-15-2015, 05:28 PM)K Wrote:If I am remembering his gear right I think the only Greens he had was the chest and maybe the helm.(05-15-2015, 05:26 PM)Edda Wrote:(05-15-2015, 05:22 PM)K Wrote: I am not entirely sure about what level my gear was, I typically upgraded gear as was offered to me through MSQs, but level 20 gear at a level 28 dungeon doesn't sound too bad to me(?) Maybe I am mistaken though.If they were whites/NQ, it's a pretty big gap. If they were dungeon pinks/greens, it's not as big of a deal. Anything more than 10 levels you will start to notice extreme differences in ability, no matter how good each player is.
Mmn.... most likely had at least 1-2 dungeon drops I guess. I'm still not entirely sure either way but I do remember that I would sometimes go for a number of levels before a new upgrade showed up. Having said that, I've levelled a number of character so I could be thinking of non-tanks either.
Ah, ignore my post then, OP!
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Jana - 05-17-2015
(05-16-2015, 09:21 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I just want good written guides. Videos are often too shoddily made to even bother with it because you can't break down the fight consistently as you're doing it.
You've not been watching the right videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeUiwRI6rqM
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Sounsyy - 05-17-2015
(05-17-2015, 03:28 AM)Jana Wrote: You've not been watching the right videos.
I second this. MTQ Capture's raid guides are some of the best for breaking down a fight mechanic by mechanic, phase by phase, then showing the whole fight play through to the end. And the videos also always include a written guide in the description below. My raid group uses her videos as a basis for learning the fight, then adapt or incorporate other strategies as we go along to suite our individual needs.
That said, nothing will replace actual in-game practice and trial and error. As every individual group differs - be it by party setup, gear variance, or skill level - no one strategy guide can cover every eventuality your particular group may face. That would require the video to be as long as one of Mr. Happy's guides... and those are... incredibly lacking... to be polite. Also, having knowledge of what happens in a fight does not compare to having the fight committed to muscle memory.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Kellach Woods - 05-17-2015
I'd still rather have a written guide because with dual monitor setup I can at least have a cheatsheet.
But that video's actually pretty good since it's exactly what I described.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Caspar - 05-19-2015
(05-16-2015, 03:25 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:I think that you are not obligated to DPS as a healer. My static's WHM takes this attitude. She averages like 2-3 dps.(05-16-2015, 02:00 AM)Edda Wrote: *snipped for length*
You're... joking, right?
If it was a healer's job to DPS, then they would be queued as such in duty finder, or at least given the option to do so.
As it stands now, this is not how the game is designed, thus if you are WHM or SCH, your first and foremost priority should be the safety and well-being of your fellow party members. If you don't feel comfortable DPSing, then don't. There's no reason to take a risk just because you can and frankly there's very little I can think of more frustrating than watching some wannabe BLM spam Holy over and over while everyone else burns.
If there's a reasonable window to switch into Cleric's, then sure, go for it, but it's not a requirement by any means, nor does it shirk one from what they were brought there to do in the first place just because the option is available.
It's selfish attitudes like this that push our potential healers away from ever picking up a cane or grimoire. No one deserves to be abused for having what ultimately amounts to a cautious play style, much less so if they're wiling to endure what is, in my opinion, the most selfless role one can ever play in an RPG.
--Signed, a frequent stance dancer
So she solo-heals everything. The SCH basically only DPS and mitigates when absolutely necessary. Sure she doesn't DPS, but when you don't, you should be taken to task to make up for it in other ways. To take ownership of your role in the party means to learn to do everything that the class entails. If you wish to play only a certain way, that's fine. There are groups and players who will accommodate that play style. Much as a Healer isn't obligated to DPS, parties are not obligated to accept one who doesn't in hard content. The 200-300 our SCH does has been instrumental in ensuring our static beats every DPS check with ease, and has done so since First Coil. If you don't avail yourself of every useful tool your class possesses, expect criticism. It's like a Monk not using Fists of Earth to mitigate unavoidable damage; there's no reason not to, aside from of course lack of comfort or practice in a given fight, being caught unawares, etc. I just hope the critic is polite about it.
I don't think easy content should be taken quite as seriously, but I'd say something similar to what Otto did; low effort on the part of the Healer, or any party member in easy content, sometimes reflects a disregard for the free time of others as well as your own. I think that's different from being cautious because the tank gets hit hard. To a certain extent, I also sort of feel that learning how much damage a tank can generally take before they're in danger is part of learning when to use Cleric's Stance, which can be a helpful tool for understanding how to heal efficiently as well as deal damage. I myself try to do as much damage as possible in every single role I play. I don't like wasting time and I don't like wasting the time of others, though I have to be cautious when playing a class I'm not as comfortable with. I don't think people should just open up a can of verbal whoopass on a healer who doesn't DPS, but that's more of a problem with personality than the game or in game culture itself. Obviously some people take it too far.
In my experience, the player who is willing to change their own play and understands their role in more than one way, not just in healing, or doing damage, is the one who clears. To me that's 'selfless'; being willing to extend outside of your comfort zone and learn a new approach. Doing well in this game doesn't take some innate inborn talent or meticulous study, just time and an attitude adjustment IMO.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Cailean Lockwood - 05-19-2015
Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.
I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Caspar - 05-19-2015
(05-19-2015, 10:08 PM)theincubuslord Wrote: Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.That does sound like my kind of healing.
I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.
Or tanking, even. Clearly you "tank" by killing the enemy, thus lowering the chance they'll do damage to your allies. It makes perfect sense! XD
RE: Is this common for tanks? - Cailean Lockwood - 05-19-2015
(05-19-2015, 10:18 PM)Caspar Wrote:(05-19-2015, 10:08 PM)theincubuslord Wrote: Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.That does sound like my kind of healing.
I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.
Or tanking, even. Clearly you "tank" by killing the enemy, thus lowering the chance they'll do damage to your allies. It makes perfect sense! XD
HAH! Good point! XD
I hope to get a good experience as a Dark Knight. I love the theme of the job, but I've never been good at tanking. And I don't like the Paladin or Warrior classes. Not so much because they are tanks, but because the theme of them aren't fitting my characters. I tried Marauder with one of them, but I jumped the Rogue/Ninja class as soon it was released.
Dark Knight would fit my Au Ra though. Always loved the darker themes. ^^