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+--- Thread: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement (/showthread.php?tid=10492)
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Edvyn - 03-10-2015
the only people who fear elitism are those who know they aren't good enough
Rlitism nd You:A Atmptat P iscs ilvl125+ly, Must Link Achievement - Iex - 03-10-2015
Gonna start with… this probably should go into FFXIV forum rather than RPing forum because that particular part of topic is long since gone the wayside.
Regarding Zeta, as someone with one I feel inclined to note something. I have never once seen anyone brag seriously about the relic. Until recently, relic was actually considered more non-endgame, because before Zeta it was rarely BiS for more than a few weeks if at all. To be honest folks with Zeta are more likely to be talked down to if they don’t know something. If you have Zeta you are expected to be good. A humorous twist on the whole elitist thing, I would say.
Regarding comparing DS (2 etc) to FFXIV: That is comparing apples to oranges. The selling part of the Dark Souls franchise is the difficulty and the fact you must be PREPARED to die. MMOs have never had that aspect. MMORPGs are designed to appeal to a wide demographic of hardcore to casual players. Sure most MMOs will have Hard modes (Heroic Raids or whatever they are called in WoW, and Savage modes in FFXIV), but in general the difficulty of MMOs come more from coordination of many folks and overcoming unfortunates such as lag and miscommunication. In Dark Souls you only have one person to worry about (if you aren’t invaded): yourself.
Regarding Elitism in general:  Frankly, you are going to run into dicks who will rub it in your face that they beat T13 before you, or that they are better than you. It is natural. I mean I am sure folks don’t like it when their sport team lost to another and those fans goes bragging. However, in the case of elitism in FFXIV the onus only rests on you and how you handle yourself when you are being “elitist.â€
Someone being an ‘elitist’ (read rude)? Ignore them because you don’t take the game seriously, or if they are being rather annoying at a point where it bothers you (we are all human we will get bothered): leave the group or blacklist. No one is making you play with that person. It is your 15 dollars so you can decide what to do with it. If they are really being terrible it is likely they will get vote kicked.
Along that same vein, a lot of people in this thread have posted gripes or expectations of other players. The thing is…. You can’t have expectations of ‘stranger’ players. Not everyone is going to play well, and frankly some folks are really quite bad at games in general. The thing is: You don’t have to play with them. The $15 allows you to play the game the way you want, just like everyone else.
You can spend that $15 worth of time playing with folks you know play the game the way you enjoy and they know you play the game they way they enjoy.  What I am saying is… playingwith friends. The primary Roulette (expert) is party friendly! You never have to do Duty Finder for that.
Expectations of other players can only exist when they are set down at the start, aka Party Finder. If the person says ‘know the fight’ that has been established they want you to know the fight. It isn’t elitist by any standard. Established Expectations =/= Elitism. Hence why if someone is botching up a lot and ignoring the advice in a Coil group… they might find themselves kicked out because they do not meet the established expectations for the group.
 Roulettes and Duty Finders exist to provide folks who don’t have a pool of friends a way to get content done and the like. You are given bonuses for doing them as a daily reward, but also because it might honestly be hell. In that case, if you have expectations you are setting yourself up for failure, and if you go off (rudely addressing the issue) on folks because it is not going the way you want, you are an asshole. You can just as easily leave the party as you can go off on other players.
OF COURSE I am not touching the fact that if you politely try to get folks to fix stuff for the sake of everyone else and they go off on you. That is just a mess where nothing will end up well.
Frankly, in most games their isn’t so much Elitism in PVE or RP as there is just people being dicks because it seems that is the default way to deal with things when they aren’t going their way.
((Before anyone brings up CT… don’t… it isn’t worth, it those raids will always bring out the worst in people.))
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Cato - 03-10-2015
I must be lucky: I so rarely encounter any hostility in raids or dungeons. I've met a few bad apples here and there but the vast majority of my dungeon and raid groups through the duty finder are fairly calm and pleasant.
Tougher content isn't necessarily successful (Turn 5 is very much a sore point for me) yet even when a group fails the atmosphere is decent.
Many people I've spoken with in FFXIV have had similar experiences which makes me wonder if those claiming to have multiple bad runs are just really unlucky or the cause of much of the hostility.
All it takes is one player with a foul attitude and a bad temper to drag down the quality of a group after all.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Caspar - 03-10-2015
(03-10-2015, 05:34 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: I must be lucky: I so rarely encounter any hostility in raids or dungeons. I've met a few bad apples here and there but the vast majority of my dungeon and raid groups through the duty finder are fairly calm and pleasant.I think they just remember the bad cases more, really. I meet a lot of good players outside of the three towers. Even then it's not so much those are bad players as there are so many of them that at least a few are bound to be bad.
Tougher content isn't necessarily successful (Turn 5 is very much a sore point for me) yet even when a group fails the atmosphere is decent.
Many people I've spoken with in FFXIV have had similar experiences which makes me wonder if those claiming to have multiple bad runs are just really unlucky or the cause of much of the hostility.
All it takes is one player with a foul attitude and a bad temper to drag down the quality of a group after all.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Warren Castille - 03-10-2015
(03-10-2015, 12:09 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Demon's Souls was better, anyway.
This thread has also done a good job of proving elitism is still alive and well in MMOs, though I must confess I expected better coming from roleplayers. Call it naive if you want, but I'm still disappointed either way.
Doth mine eyes deceive me, or does this post open with a subjective opinion before opining that subjective opinions are disappointing?
This whole thread was designed around classifying the myriad differences between any given individuals' definition of the term "elitist." From your post, though, it sounds as if you do not consider yourself elitist in any way? You're disappointed in us, after all. Surely you are above this.
Have you never been in a group that just can't pass simple mechanics? Have you ever wiped ad nauseum to Titan EX because your tanks can't figure out how to swap effectively? Wiped in Turn 5 repeatedly because that One Person always messes up Dive Bomb or Twister and kills everyone? Maybe you don't even do 8-person content, that's fine too.
Have you ever had a tank who can't hold hate? Had a run completely derailed because some healer couldn't or wouldn't do their job correctly? If you've ever felt frustrated by any means at the inadequacies of your party, there's a seed of elitism in you. You're not above it, no matter how you might like to posture yourself. In fact, one might say that your condescending and "above it all" tone paints you as an elitist yourself! Surely you can see the irony of coming in to a thread designed to define "elitism" in broad strokes and looking down on all of us from your ivory tower.
The truth of the matter is, in my opinion, that it comes down to standards. For any given number of people, a varying percent of them are going to hold the same values. Anyone number under that value and there's grounds for feeling like you're doing things more correctly than them. Any number over that value and there's grounds for feeling like you're the one being looked down upon. I'll expand on this.
Earlier, someone brought up that Harry Potter in Eorzea as a roleplay device. There's a group of ten people in the Quicksand. Two of them, named Harry Potter and Hermione Granger, are openly roleplaying their characters. If any one of the other eight point out this isn't canonical and ask/tell/whatever them to take it to party or go elsewhere, that person is an elitist. If anyone agrees with them, they're elitist.
There's ten people in the Quicksand. Two of them, named Warren and Vetiver, are roleplaying the Little Ladies' Event. Eight other people tell them "You can do that here, this is New Hogwarts, get out" and proceed to mock and make fun of the other two. These roleplayers are now elitist. And when those eight players go to a public event and get told not to roleplay such a concept, those eight people are now the victims of elitists.
All of this is subjective.
tl;dr: You're not better than any of us, you're literally being the thing that you think we're being.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse - Inessa Hara - 03-10-2015
(03-09-2015, 09:11 PM)allgivenover Wrote:Well, if were talking about Dark Souls, I think it's one of those thing's that boil's down to what the player wants to play. I have Dark Souls so I do speak from experience of playing it in the following rant:(03-09-2015, 09:09 PM)Verad Wrote:(03-09-2015, 09:02 PM)undefined Wrote: I am explaining MY preference for games without criticizing or dismissing others preferred play style.
Which, of course, requires imagery depicting the modern action game as infantilizing the player. It's the only way.
Almost everything is infantilizing compared to Dark Souls. And seriously it's just a funny comic, I wouldn't over think it.
I like difficult content. I like when the game takes off the training wheels and challenges you to become even better than before. However, Dark Souls is not something that you just pick up and expect to learn how to play like a pro in minutes with hand holding. It is one of those do or die games where you either take flight after your first jump off the theoretical cliff or keep plummeting to your death till you get it right.
With that said, I personally despise Dark Souls for it's notoriously hard mechanics. Most of the time, I get 3 shotted by anything with a stick in that game, so I do see the legitimate grievances of others here.
Really, it all comes down to personal preferences and how people like to play and enjoy their games. Dark Souls is obviously designed for a hardcore audience, and that's ok. I don't mind that it was designed for them and neither does anybody else I recon.
Where I draw the line with Elitism is that if someone says they beat Dark Souls and they brag about it, I say "Cool story bro. I could never get past *boss or mechanic*" If they automatically proceed to say Git Gud or any variation of that and not try to explain or show how to get past what they consider easy content, thats when Elitism starts.
Elitism starts when someone get's a bloated ego and think they are the best. It end's when nobody really cares, including the person who beat the game.
People who beat hard games or any games inn general do have bragging rights. Just dont rub it in someones face then taunt them. That is a d**k move.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Yssen - 03-10-2015
elitism - noun. the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.
  - the attitude or behavior of a person who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
I simply love definitions, they can clarify so much. Time to delve into this a little.
Elitism as a concept is not, by definition, what one would call inherently a bad thing. Are there people who are better an doing "x" than others? Absolutely, it is a simple fact of life and it comes with the territory pretty much everywhere. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with this, a group of people come together to do something and each one does what they the thing they do best. Awesome sauce, superior product of endeavor achieved.Â
The problem lies in that second part of the definition. Ones behavior (meaning yours) because they (meaning you) regard themselves as belonging to an elite (group, like minded point of view, skill level, what ever the heck). In short, the problem starts when a person starts treating people as something lesser than themselves. They do this generally because they hold themselves to be more than that person because of "x". What is "x"? Doesn't matter. This is not about "x". This is about how you as a person treat other people because of whatever your "x" is. That is the defining/vector problem with "elitism". Attitude.
You are free to act as you wish based on your personal "x" that makes you elite. However, it is generally accepted by most that if you are excluding people, talking down to people, or generally treating people as lesser because of your "x" (your arbitrary and only signifcant to you "x") you are making what most would refer to as a "dick move". You can seek to justify the behavior however you please, but when you get right down to the nity gritty of it. The chewy fun truthful center of it all. Whatever justification you choose, you are still treating someone (or someones) as lesser than you, and I cannot think of any point ever where that has been a good thing. No one likes to be excluded. No one likes to feel lesser. You wouldn't like done to you. Heck, most of us have probably felt how much it stings when it is done to us. So don't do it. Failing that, accept the nitty gritty of how your attitude is making you act and accept how others will judge you based on those acts. Whether they are good or bad.
To wrap this up, I place a with a super nerdy quote at the bottom. Because it relates to the matter at hand, and is great food for thought. Have a great day, all.
"There is right and there is wrong in the Universe. The distinction between them is not hard to make. Do right by all." - Superman, Kingdom Come.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - IvikBlack - 03-10-2015
Believing yourself better than others is pretty dangerous. I'm not saying I never do it, but even when I do it I always put a little asterisk by the thought in my mind, because I'm not that great. Even though there are differences in skill levels (RP and otherwise), it's not like we're a bunch of published authors blowing time in Eorzea before our next script is due.
I find that if you want to criticize (yourself and others) comparisons are extremely unhelpful. It doesn't matter if that person is worse than you. What matters is simple: they're doing something poorly. Delve into why and give advice tactfully and thoughtfully to fix the problem or seek to avoid them. Looking down on them is supremely unhelpful (though sometimes a guilty pleasure we all fall victim to, myself included).
And I cannot emphasis enough the previously bolded portion. Whenever you seek to criticize others you ought to consider what's motivating you in doing so. Are you pointing out faults to satisfy some kind of selfish drive or are you looking to positively alter the problem you're criticizing? If it's the former, keep your thoughts private. If it's the latter, well, give it a lot of thought. Try very hard to remain easy to digest.
Education isn't easy. Nevermind the difficulty of transmitting ideas or the possibility that the student is incapable of learning and executing them, in this arena there's the added difficulty of them disagreeing that they've done anything wrong to begin with. It takes a lot of effort to breach such topics, and even more to remain constructive. In the end, it's hard to look at conflict as worth resolving. UNLESS you're dealing with an exceptional person, and sometimes you are (back to the whole 'elite' few thing).
So my most cynical of conclusions? Learn not to engage. Look for the rare few who are humble enough to listen to the suggestions of others without becoming defensive or agitated. They're the truly elite.
RE: Elitism and You: An Attempt at Polite Discourse: ilvl125+ Only, Must Link Achievement - Edvyn - 03-10-2015
(03-10-2015, 08:15 AM)Yssen Wrote: elitism - noun. the advocacy or existence of an elite as a dominating element in a system or society.yo this aint algebra
  - the attitude or behavior of a person who regard themselves as belonging to an elite.
I simply love definitions, they can clarify so much. Time to delve into this a little.
Elitism as a concept is not, by definition, what one would call inherently a bad thing. Are there people who are better an doing "x" than others? Absolutely, it is a simple fact of life and it comes with the territory pretty much everywhere. Inherently, there is nothing wrong with this, a group of people come together to do something and each one does what they the thing they do best. Awesome sauce, superior product of endeavor achieved.Â
The problem lies in that second part of the definition. Ones behavior (meaning yours) because they (meaning you) regard themselves as belonging to an elite (group, like minded point of view, skill level, what ever the heck). In short, the problem starts when a person starts treating people as something lesser than themselves. They do this generally because they hold themselves to be more than that person because of "x". What is "x"? Doesn't matter. This is not about "x". This is about how you as a person treat other people because of whatever your "x" is. That is the defining/vector problem with "elitism". Attitude.
You are free to act as you wish based on your personal "x" that makes you elite. However, it is generally accepted by most that if you are excluding people, talking down to people, or generally treating people as lesser because of your "x" (your arbitrary and only signifcant to you "x") you are making what most would refer to as a "dick move". You can seek to justify the behavior however you please, but when you get right down to the nity gritty of it. The chewy fun truthful center of it all. Whatever justification you choose, you are still treating someone (or someones) as lesser than you, and I cannot think of any point ever where that has been a good thing. No one likes to be excluded. No one likes to feel lesser. You wouldn't like done to you. Heck, most of us have probably felt how much it stings when it is done to us. So don't do it. Failing that, accept the nitty gritty of how your attitude is making you act and accept how others will judge you based on those acts. Whether they are good or bad.
To wrap this up, I place a with a super nerdy quote at the bottom. Because it relates to the matter at hand, and is great food for thought. Have a great day, all.
"There is right and there is wrong in the Universe. The distinction between them is not hard to make. Do right by all." - Superman, Kingdom Come.