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Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Printable Version

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RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: Or you're in a full party and /p is used solely for OOC

That's what linkshells are for

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: folks didn't want to give up /em

Then their publicly written actions are publicly fair game. Even if it's something as inane as a passing stranger responding with "X thinks this mugging is dumb"

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: yet they were still effectively private

Not really, no. Not unless you're locked away in an FC house or instance somewhere

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: huge mob events, where a stranger doing walkup doesn't know there's an enormous riot going on

They can read publicly displayed text and have their toon react accordingly. If you don't like how their character reacts then tough shit, you don't pay their sub

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: They lack the context to understand the scene, so asking in /tell would allow them to rapidly assess what's going on without having access to earlier dialogue and enter if they're welcome to do so

This sounds less and less like a mob riot and more like that insufferable couple next door havin' a domestic again

(07-22-2017, 02:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: this still doesn't mean they're free to enter if they please. Nobody can force the group to RP with them

"This still doesn't mean the group is free to riot as they please. Nobody can force the public to stop reacting in-character to their publicly broadcasted drama."

See, it works both ways

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Lydia Lightfoot - 07-22-2017

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one, because the point in a debate in which people become focused on which fallacy terms they can quote is the point at which the debate loses sight of the actual topic and shifts to bantering about fallacies, and that's frankly not productive for anything.

Here's what I'll leave with:

Having played in a lot - a lot - of various MMOs, and having seen more of them than not become (or already exist as) bastions of RP only among tight-knit clique groups who largely do not interact with each other and almost certainly do not engage in RP in the open world... I feel it's better that we celebrate the existence of open RP and that we try to all remember we're on the same team here. There are boors, for certain. Let's not change our behavior from being a welcoming and participation-encouraged community on account of some bad apples who won't handle that situation gracefully. Personally, I like to roleplay in an environment where my fellow roleplayers and I err on the side of acceptance and camaraderie rather than supporting exclusion and seclusion.

If I can read your RP, then it's an invitation for me to join in if I wish. We're all on the same team. If your situation is a proxy or out-of-time sort of thing, that's fine. Just tell me so after I post, and at worst, I'll have wasted my time posting a post and that's not a big deal to me. I'd rather waste time 50% of the time and have the experience of getting RP with some new people the other half, than feel like the only people I'm allowed to RP with without begging them to include me first are my existing friends. That seems terribly insular and that's not how I RP. If it's how you RP, then please do enjoy yourself, and we'll simply have a difference in how we think of the hobby.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Caspar - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 03:06 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: See, it works both ways
None of what you said is strictly wrong, sure, but generally I err on the side of being polite because it saves me trouble. It's not unreasonable to want to walk up to someone who's using /em and /say, and if you don't know that it's a private event, it's understandable you would try to. I think it's really just not unreasonable to ask people to enter a scene beforehand, or watch for a bit and decide for yourself whether it's something you think you'd be able to enter seamlessly. You can of course butt in, and people will react accordingly, but why struggle like that? The server is huge. There's plenty of folks to RP with. 
I've seen plenty of rude people in game who respond aggressively when someone asks politely to be left alone during an FC event or something like that, as well as people who respond impolitely to walk up. There's no "right" way to RP. But asking in advance is a good way to get information and understand what's going on ahead of time, and frankly, it's just the more diplomatic way to do things. RP is a cooperative exercise, and I want to work with others, not against them.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - V'aleera - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 03:06 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: stuff

You don't really seem to understand the crux of the issue, allow me to lay it out for you:

You have a right to react to any visible RP.

You do not have a right to have your reaction acknowledged.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Erah'sae - 07-22-2017

(07-20-2017, 07:48 PM)Lydia Lightfoot Wrote: A lot of people don't use the search info or RP tag very effectively. Case in point: me. I never use the RP tag because I dislike that the kerning of the icon butts it up right against the start of my character's name, instead of giving a few pixels' space. It's totally idiotic of me that it bothers me, but yet it does, and so I don't use it out of some futile silent protest.

I am so glad I'm not the only one that doesn't have the tag on most of the time because the tag itself makes me twitch.  (That and I forget to turn it on)

To answer previous stuff: 

Forum posts often have these little tags like "(open)" as we see in several threads on this forum.  For people really wanting it to be closed except for a group, there's often a disclaimer stating as such or a "[closed]" in the topic.  You can give your thread context and control the venue in which it is shown.  

Things in world, well, RP interaction is why we're on a RP server, isn't it?  There are so many other private avenues available for private RP (party / whisper / fc chant / linkshell / etc) but only one in game for public RP.  In my opinion the responsibility is on the speaker to limit their venue appropriately to where they wish it to be responded to.  

If someone is going to talking / acting ICly within earshot of others they are putting their /say and /emotes into the public space and should expect others in the same public space to respond accordingly.  

This is how organic roleplay works.  
This is how you create a living, breathing world for our stories to interact in.

If a private/public conflict arises, the solution should be to politely inform that this wasn't meant to be public RP, and then to take the conversation to one of the many readily available private channels.  It is a far simpler thing and far less restrictive of a thing to do that rather then to restrict all others from interaction in a public venue.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 03:15 AM)Caspar Wrote:
(07-22-2017, 03:06 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: See, it works both ways
None of what you said is strictly wrong, sure, but generally I err on the side of being polite because it saves me trouble. It's not unreasonable to want to walk up to someone who's using /em and /say, and if you don't know that it's a private event, it's understandable you would try to. I think it's really just not unreasonable to ask people to enter a scene beforehand, or watch for a bit and decide for yourself whether it's something you think you'd be able to enter seamlessly. You can of course butt in, and people will react accordingly, but why struggle like that? The server is huge. There's plenty of folks to RP with. 
I've seen plenty of rude people in game who respond aggressively when someone asks politely to be left alone during an FC event or something like that, as well as people who respond impolitely to walk up. There's no "right" way to RP. But asking in advance is a good way to get information and understand what's going on ahead of time, and frankly, it's just the more diplomatic way to do things. RP is a cooperative exercise, and I want to work with others, not against them.

I can respect that. Tbh I view most RP friction these days as a matchmaking issue, rather than a solvable git gud issue. Yoshi-P can wall off bads from endgame with the Royal Menagerie, but you can't cure shitty, attention-whoring RP cliques. GW2 still suffers that to this day with all the Divinity's Reach noble house / minister bullshit. For your sanity's sake and to save time you really have to just roll your eyes and move on.

(07-22-2017, 03:15 AM)Lydia Lightfoot Wrote: I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one, because the point in a debate in which people become focused on which fallacy terms they can quote is the point at which the debate loses sight of the actual topic and shifts to bantering about fallacies, and that's frankly not productive for anything.

Here's what I'll leave with:

Having played in a lot - a lot - of various MMOs, and having seen more of them than not become (or already exist as) bastions of RP only among tight-knit clique groups who largely do not interact with each other and almost certainly do not engage in RP in the open world... I feel it's better that we celebrate the existence of open RP and that we try to all remember we're on the same team here. There are boors, for certain. Let's not change our behavior from being a welcoming and participation-encouraged community on account of some bad apples who won't handle that situation gracefully. Personally, I like to roleplay in an environment where my fellow roleplayers and I err on the side of acceptance and camaraderie rather than supporting exclusion and seclusion.

If I can read your RP, then it's an invitation for me to join in if I wish. We're all on the same team. If your situation is a proxy or out-of-time sort of thing, that's fine. Just tell me so after I post, and at worst, I'll have wasted my time posting a post and that's not a big deal to me. I'd rather waste time 50% of the time and have the experience of getting RP with some new people the other half, than feel like the only people I'm allowed to RP with without begging them to include me first are my existing friends. That seems terribly insular and that's not how I RP. If it's how you RP, then please do enjoy yourself, and we'll simply have a difference in how we think of the hobby.

To me it's akin to the people who want to be selective about FFXIV lore. Yes, there can only be a few padjal-chosen White Mages and one Azure Dragoon. However, goofball shit like Hildibrand exists and is canon. Lalafell exist and aren't creepy cabbage patch kids, they're grown-ass men and women. People who shrilly insist that "this and ONLY this development is worth acknowledging about this very public display I'm making in this online JRPG" are bad at improv and bad at RP.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Zhu - 07-22-2017

I have social anxiety and have been mistreated heavily in the past so of course I am more inclined to send an ooc tell asking permission than others. Some people have difficulties or special needs that makes it harder for them to do things that are second nature to others, it's kinda unfair to get angry at customs that try to be respectful to you? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Seye Qhesu - 07-22-2017

I'm of the belief that there is a fine line of when you should send a tell, when your character gathering information and using it is metagaming, and when it is okay to just walk up.

I've been in an instance where a player was afk in the local area. Never emoted, never spoke up but was keen on trying to use the conversation they were never apart of against my character. That to me doesn't fly, especially if you try to work it saying mammets were there recording everything as a means to bypass it.

If I'm roleplaying in public I am fine with people just walking up and joining in (if not in an event of course). My only concern becomes when said walk up player tries to force their roleplay, ie: law enforcement. Now again, there is a fine line to this. If a criminal is, well, being a criminal in public then I would see that as an invitation to step in. However, if there is no obvious emoted illegal action being emoted or spoken of and you try to force an arrest then obviously you will be met with resistance.

At the end of the day it is really just a personal preference. Both sides of this topic have their points but there are a multitude of different avenues/instances that would cause said walk up to feel rejected and ignored. I personally am just the type to emote my character there as well as ask to see if the roleplay is open for walk ups. Another person may not be. This is just how it is. The online World is huge and there will always be differing opinions and styles of roleplay here.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - QalliFlower - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 01:30 AM)Lydia Lightfoot Wrote: Allow me to present something for you all to think about.

Why did each of you respond to this forum thread? Is it because the OP posted a message in a public space, one which was directed specifically to you, inviting you personally, individually, to respond? Or did the OP post a message in a public space and you chose to respond to it even though it wasn't meant precisely for you?

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out... would you consider that an amicable and acceptable reaction by her? Or would you be inclined to respond, "Why did you write the message here, where inherently anyone can respond to it, if you only wanted a response from a specific subset of people and would be offended by a reply from anyone else?"

Food for thought.

Something akin to this scenario has happened to me more than once.  Heck, it's happened in open forum RP, which is a more direct comparison.

Someone posted a thread where their character from Faction A accidentally wound up in Faction B territory, where the setting was a PVP-heavy game.  They didn't specify what they were looking for OOCly, so I posted that my character (a member of Faction B) was showing up to fight.

Turned out the OP was looking for a star-crossed friendship.  I pointed out that they really should have disclosed that from the start (which was right) and then insisted on continuing my RP posts (which was, at minimum, unhelpful and didn't make me any new friends).

People can and will flake.  People can and will duck IC responsiblity.  People can and will be hypocritical.  I think these are important things to accept, and I don't think that trying to fix others' flaws is a constructive use of my time.

You can, of course, hold them to account in the form of not interacting with them/inviting them to your FC.  That's about it.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-22-2017

On reflection, ERPers and Darknest had this etiquette figured out ages ago: if you're acting out a scene where you don't want outside intervention and commentary possibly throwing a wrench in your plans? Then keep that shit 100% in private channels. Emote actions, conversations, all of it - type it out where only you and yours are subjected to it.

So all the conflict drama / criminal storyliners and "private event" FCs have to do is adhere to the same behavioral discipline and standards that ERPers regularly do. Problem solved. Meanwhile the rest of us who welcome walkups and making new connections can continue on our merry way. Everyone's happy!

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 02:00 AM)Lydia Lightfoot Wrote:
(07-22-2017, 01:47 AM)Caspar Wrote: This is based on a false equivalency. A forum post has a totally different purpose than semi-public RP.

Does it? Please explain how a forum post here is at all different from an RP post made on the street in the middle of Ul'dah. How is it acceptable to randomly respond, without personal invitation to do so, to one of these, but not the other?

I t was touched upon by some others previously, but a forum post has a tacit understanding of being open to replies. This is literally the purpose of a forum. If the same question had been through other channels, say a direct chat or a private message, then it would be obviously clear that the text was meant for specific people to respond to.

Forums largely do not match up with typing text in-game, but RPC does have a perfect example of a board that does. Town Hall. And when we look at the threads in that forum, it's pretty easy to tell when and where unexpected additions to that RP scene are welcomed or not.

Typically [open] tagged threads are completely free for all. They're meant for anyone to join in, provided they can keep up with the flow of the thread or write their exit in if they choose to leave.

Then we have [closed] tagged threads which are still being RPed out in public, but aren't open to the public. I doubt the people who organized the thread would really appreciate random people posting in it. If anything, the posts would be deemed off-topic, get reported, and then be removed. If all RP happened in private, the general feeling of a community would likely die. RP would become incredibly clustered and it would be near-impossible to integrate new people who didn't already have some sort of connection. As others have also said, watching RP can be nice too, whether that's happening ICly or OOCly.

Then we get into the fuzzier tags which can have any range of meanings. Things like [semi-open], [semi-closed], and [ask first]. In the threads I've seen and read containing these tags, there's usually an out of character message with some context and possible means for getting involved. It usually means sending a message to someone active in the thread and asking to join in.

Then we have tags like [story] or [journal] which are basically the same as [closed], but often not collaborative writing to even begin with. They're typically single-person or at least single-perspective. Just like a closed tag, you wouldn't just go and start typing some response in someone else's thread that was marked clearly as not for that purpose.

--

In game though? We don't have some sure-fire way of telling other people what status a given scene is. And the context of openness varies upon when, where and who is involved. Because even if two people were RPing some romantic dinner in the Quicksand of all places, you probably wouldn't just sit down at their table and start eating their food and expect them to handle that well. Maybe some people would! Or it'd turn into a different kind of scene! But it also wouldn't be unexpected for the couple to either ignore you or to ask that you not disrupt their RP. Or maybe they'd leave, noting that the Quicksand needs to keep an eye on their disruptive patrons or something. Social boundaries aren't white and black. And just like the real world, most people aren't going to initiate communication with every single person they encounter. Sometimes there's an obvious hook. Sometimes the people are complete strangers. Players RPing have their own preferences about the do's and don'ts.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Silmanos - 07-22-2017

In regards to fc events people need to realize thst while they may be private it is not always possible to keep them in private channels. This is especially true for the larger fcs. As an example I was part of a fc event that exceeded thirty playes. These thirty players were then split into three separate groups to accomplish different tasks. Now because they were larger than eight they could not use party chat, and the ls was for communication between the three teams. So where does this leave them in views of those here? Some of you suggested linkshells... well no fc is going to have four linkshells and thst is a ridculous thing to even suggest. Hells I have a single slot for a fc ls, the rest are taken. So they needs must use say and emote and yet the event is still private. Of course people can still attempt to walk up,  but should be understanding and respectful. The fc of course should never get the response of 'Well if it isn't public use a different channel.'

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Cato - 07-22-2017

At the end of the day, not everybody is fond of showing up to events or joining a Free Company in order to be given the 'privilege' of access to some consistent role-play. There's a lot of people who prefer to simply walk up to other characters that they see out and about and try their luck.

Not everybody is going to have the same approach. Or the same standards. I'd politely excuse myself if I felt like someone approaching me in the game world wasn't a good fit for what I'm after.

At the same time, though, I've been singed enough times during my time on Balmung to realise just how difficult it can be to actually find role-play even as someone who is rather outgoing. I dread to think how much worse it is for those who are a lot more shy and reclusive but push themselves out there regardless.

If they're told, multiple times by multiple people that they can't join in with a scene because it's 'private' then they'll start to lose interest. I've seen many people take their leave of Balmung for that very reason. I was even tempted to do it myself rather recently, in fact.

Nobody is obligated to interact with anybody else, obviously - but at the same time if you truly want something to be 'private' then ensure it actually is private. There's no need to get annoyed at someone for trying to get involved with something. Be civil and polite, even if they're an unwelcome distraction. It's possible they mean no ill at all and misread the situation - or maybe they were surprised to actually find people out in the wilds for a change.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Surilian - 07-22-2017

(07-22-2017, 12:35 PM)Ryuji Wrote: At the end of the day, not everybody is fond of showing up to events or joining a Free Company in order to be given the 'privilege' of access to some consistent role-play. There's a lot of people who prefer to simply walk up to other characters that they see out and about and try their luck.

Not everybody is going to have the same approach. Or the same standards. I'd politely excuse myself if I felt like someone approaching me in the game world wasn't a good fit for what I'm after.

At the same time, though, I've been singed enough times during my time on Balmung to realise just how difficult it can be to actually find role-play even as someone who is rather outgoing. I dread to think how much worse it is for those who are a lot more shy and reclusive but push themselves out there regardless.

If they're told, multiple times by multiple people that they can't join in with a scene because it's 'private' then they'll start to lose interest. I've seen many people take their leave of Balmung for that very reason. I was even tempted to do it myself rather recently, in fact.

Nobody is obligated to interact with anybody else, obviously - but at the same time if you truly want something to be 'private' then ensure it actually is private. There's no need to get annoyed at someone for trying to get involved with something. Be civil and polite, even if they're an unwelcome distraction. It's possible they mean no ill at all and misread the situation - or maybe they were surprised to actually find people out in the wilds for a change.

Reading all your posts (and yes I read them all... crazy me). I agree with this and a lot of people's views. I have rped in this server a damn long time and I believe if you see it, it should be used against you BUT not everyone believes this. I for one rp a lot of illegal activity and won't shun someone running up to arrest me if that is the case. BUT not everyone sees it as this.

Not everyone quickly moves their rps to party which should be done if they don't want open people to run in. Though I'm running a criminal event I have 'asked' people not to ruin it for those of ill aligned but hey I won't tantrum and storm if its broken up by officers or something WAY later in the day. XD We have no control over anyone nor should we ask control if its not possible. (and that's why I'm trying hard to find a super far away place for the event I'm doing)

In the end open rp is open rp and is a invitation to all. If you don't want people jumping in, then don't say it in say chat. Do it in private or in a area you 'feel' no one would be. As such placement is very much important and all rpers should consider it.

Sadly not everyone does it.

RE: Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public? - Kilieit - 07-22-2017

I'm feeling... idk, increasingly... uncomfortable, I guess? With the

"If you behave in this particular way, I am ENTITLED to behave this other way towards you, and you're not allowed to complain or ask me not to."

You have to recognise not everyone is going to ascribe to your view on how the chat channels should be used.

Precedence should be given to stated preferences, not inferred ones.

If someone tells you, in words, that they didn't want additional input onto a given scene, then it doesn't matter how much you think they were implying that they wanted to by doing it in a certain place or in a certain chat channel, or how much you think you're entitled to participate. They've told you, in words, what the case actually is. Any misconceptions as a result of your assumptions are your own problem to deal with, regardless of how widespread those assumptions might be.

You're entitled to do RP in the same place, that much is true. But you aren't entitled to their time, to an IC response from them, or to remaining off their blacklist if you're belligerent about it.