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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Ashren Dotharl - 12-04-2014
Because this is relevant as well, I'm gonna go ahead and post the Heavensward teaser at a particular point in the video.
http://youtu.be/68CNzwinqlg?t=1m13s
note that as the Derplander steps up after donning the Kain Highwind-esque armor, there are now not one, not two, not even three, but FOUR Dragoons all standing side by side decked out in the AF armor (counting the Derplander) and not only that, also all wielding the Gae Bolg. So yeah, there's that too...
Edit: Since the forum won't let me post it as a link, just skip to 1m 13s to see what I'm talking about.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 01:28 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Also, you tend to get the title of your job after the prerequisite training. You don't become a policeman before going through the academy, you don't become a chef before learning how to cook, and you certainly don't become a soldier before seeing boot camp. "Inexperienced dragoon" seems like an oxymoron given that they're elite dragon-killing units.
Maybe there IS a "Dragoon Academy" or training period that just hasn't been pointed out yet due to the Player Character effectively cheating his skills into play with the Soul Crystal?
Much like with normal knights, perhaps Dragoons have their own squire-types (I'll call them "whelps" for the dragon correlation and because it makes me feel witty). You don't become a Dragoon officially until you slay a dragon according to the lore, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have these Whelps learning how to make use of the skills that a Dragoon would need to slay their sworn enemies. Then the slaying of a dragon is more of a rite of passage and graduation, and the learning of the abilities is now a more progressive thing instead of something sudden like its presented in-game.
... Or maybe there's lore counteracting all that which I overlooked. Either or. I just think the Whelp to Dragoon idea might be a feasible answer if allowed. Or, heck, maybe something like it will be mentioned in Heavensward!
EDIT: Also suddenly a bunch of posts that weren't there when I was typing this!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
I'm not talking about the Azure Dragoon, though. Her power set is entirely unrelated to the rank-and-file, which is who we're talking about. Dragoon roleplayers for the most part tend to realize claiming to be the Azure Dragoon is a quick way to get people to stop roleplaying with you.
I wish the storyline would have embellished a little bit more about the Inner Dragon thing going on. If that's not Azure-centric, then that's more than enough explanation for me to shut my trap.
That's the crux of this, I'm plainly realizing. Every other class makes you A <class>. You become a paladin. You become a black mage. You become a white mage. You become a ninja.
You become the dragoon.
Heavensward can't get here fast enough to answer this stuff.
My ridiculous argument isn't to say dragoons can't jump, it's that dragoons can't instantly ignore the laws of implied Eorzean physics while also benefiting from the effect of them. If you ignore gravity's pull to get fifty fulms up, you don't get to use gravity's pull to add impact to the attack. That's just my opinion, naturally, but Dragoon is a martial class so I'm trying to come up with martial approaches, not just "because dragon aether." Every other martial ability has an estimation of WHY it works except Jump, which just works because it works.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
i love how the solution to "dragoons don't have handwaves" is to not do shit with 'em until the FFXIV loreteam can bullshit a handwave for us.
which will then be ignored because reasons.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Verad - 12-04-2014
Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.
There, it's settled.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
What is the need for a specific handwave anyway? Â In a world where "the aether did it" is a serious if unsatisfying answer, why is there even an argument about what is not only an obvious canon ability but one that is a classic and recurrent one throughout FF in general? They're not going to turn around and say "sorry guys, that whole jumping thing wasn't believable so we're going to remove it.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
As an avid RC glider enthusiast of some years and an on-again-off-again initiate of aerodynamics, I feel morally obligated to chime in on this thread long enough to point out that, from a "realism" standpoint, dragoons using the spikes/fins/blades on their drachen/wyrm armor to help control their descent through the skies is absolutely ridiculous.
Ignoring the fact that most of said protrusions are on their backs (there's an argument to be made there for increased air resistance and drag that insures that a dragoon will always descend face-down with their backs to the sky), those that aren't are nowhere near large enough nor positioned well enough to act as ailerons, elevons, flaps, air-brakes, or anything of the sort. To affect a change in course, you need a sufficiently large enough surface area with enough fine motor control over it to affect the right change in airfoil and/or cause enough deflection. Dragoon armor simply doesn't have that. Any change in vector on their way down will owe more to skydiving practices than those too-large-for-ornamentation-and-too-small-for-practical-use protrusions.
I posit that the spikes are there in case, oh, a dragon tries to eat the dragoon and finds that the little man or woman makes too painful a meal to be bothered with, thereby saving the person's life. Let's not try to further justify the ridiculous drachen and wyrm armors by dragging the principles of flight through the mud, shall we?
(inb4 a wizard did it AETHER)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 01:56 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: i love how the solution to "dragoons don't have handwaves" is to not do shit with 'em until the FFXIV loreteam can bullshit a handwave for us.
which will then be ignored because reasons.
Did anyone say they were going to stop roleplaying with dragoons?
(12-04-2014, 02:02 PM)Verad Wrote: Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.
There, it's settled.
You might be on to something.
(12-04-2014, 02:06 PM)Aya Wrote: What is the need for a specific handwave anyway? Â In a world where "the aether did it" is a serious if unsatisfying answer, why is there even an argument about what is not only an obvious canon ability but one that is a classic and recurrent one throughout FF in general? They're not going to turn around and say "sorry guys, that whole jumping thing wasn't believable so we're going to remove it.
Because it boggles that everyone else got an explanation. The answer to the question "why" is hotly pursued by curious, obsessive-over-effing-video-games minds. I don't want anything removed, I just want to know how it works.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:02 PM)Verad Wrote: Dragoon jumps are powered by RPer frustration over their inability to explain dragoon jumps.
There, it's settled.
Climbing up into the sky on the backs of a hundred people hunched over their desks, trying to write out the numbers and equations to explain how Dragoons do what they do.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-04-2014
This is just going to constantly go through the same fucking mud circle after mud circle after mud circle.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
Off-topic...
(12-04-2014, 01:43 PM)Kage Wrote: THEY ALWAYS FUCKING TELEPORT IN THE MIDDLE OF BATTLE AND EXPECT TO GET AWAY WITH IT AND NO ONE CAN STOP THEM OR CATCH THEM ETC.
I had this happen last night when Aetheric Manipulation was invoked ICly. It was worth a good laugh.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Did anyone say they were going to stop roleplaying with dragoons?Considering that the premise of the thread is how Dragoon RPers are looked down upon, and that this thread includes examples of "why I find dragoons unbelievable", etc, then yes. It may not be outright refusal to RP with, but it certainly sounds like there is a substantial resistance to the very idea. Unless, perhaps, one plays a Dragoon who is not really a Dragoon (i.e. an Ishgardian Lancer without the jumping ability).
I've never even seen a Dragoon RPer, but it just rubs me the wrong way that the very idea is treated so derisively and with such ridicule. People should be able to play one if they want without having their most basic capability brought into question (something no other job seems to be faced with).
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 02:13 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Did anyone say they were going to stop roleplaying with dragoons?The whole premise of the thread is how dragoons have constant stigma against them, c'mon.
(12-04-2014, 02:28 PM)Aya Wrote: I've never even seen a Dragoon RPer, but it just rubs me the wrong way that the very idea is treated so derisively and with such ridicule. People should be able to play one if they want without having their most basic capability brought into question (something no other job seems to be faced with).Apparently that's not the case for a lot of people out there.
I also love how the Inner Beast is brought up as an example when it's about as much of a bullshit handwave as having no explanation whatsoever. In fact, it's outright worse because nobody knows how it works either. It's just you rage hard you tank harder.
For serious, if you have problems with dragoons you should have problems with warriors.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Ashren Dotharl - 12-04-2014
So this is a bit off topic but still relevant to the idea of playing a Dragoon. What happens if in the future they decide to do away with Classes entirely and you just start out as a Level 1 Dragoon instead of a Level 1 Lancer? Similar to what they are doing with the new 3.0 Jobs (Dark Knight for example), and Yoshida has stated in the past that he has considered at some point in the future removing classes entirely from the game so that they weren't limited with what they could do with Jobs.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
Discussion of how something in-game would/would not work is not saying you'd never roleplay with one. I've been the most vocal, criticizing voice in this thread (I think, anyway) and even I openly said I've never had a bad experience with a dragoon and was mostly contending with strawmen and concerns that were invalidated because I've never had a bad experience with a dragoon.
I've known plenty of god-awful ones in XI, but that's not XIV, and I'm not judging new folks based on how the old ones were.
I'd also like to draw attention to the White Mage debates that have happened here. I was arguing over one specific ability and how instant/powerful/effective it would be. Try making a new thread talking about your white mage alt if you REALLY want to see what No Fun Guys look like.
This got edited in before I replied:
(12-04-2014, 02:29 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Apparently that's not the case for a lot of people out there.
I also love how the Inner Beast is brought up as an explanation when it's about as much of a bullshit handwave as having no explanation whatsoever. In fact, it's outright worse because nobody knows how it works. It's just you rage hard you tank harder.
For serious, if you have problems with dragoons you should have problems with warriors.
Tank survival has always been a huge question mark over the heads of anyone looking for realism. The best equivalent I've got is that HP only represents ability/willpower to continue fighting, and it is only when something renders you to 0 HP that you are actually struck "lethally" and put down. It's not unrealistic to consider that when fighting a god that spits molten fire one hit would kill you. The hits that don't outright murder you are your deflections/armor soaks/dodges/etc.
It's a reasonable explanation of the gameplay/story segregation, I think.