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+--- Thread: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? (/showthread.php?tid=10645)
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Verad - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 01:03 AM)Ryoko Wrote: From an in-world perspective, superheroes cannot coexist with humans in a realistic environment, only rule us. Freedom cannot exist while Superman exists. See, it is established that Superman is greater than the combined might of all humanity. He never loses, he simply has setbacks. But eventually he wins, without fail. In this world, democracy cannot truly exist. Self-determination cannot exist. If we are allowed to make choices, it is only because Superman allows us to. Because if we upset him, he could destroy us all. We would have no recourse against him. No balance of power, no ability to rise up against tyranny. Just helpless ants being vaporized by a flying invincible jackass with laser vision. All of our elections, our wars, our revolutions, our social movements, all made irrelevant just by this one man existing. Countless millions die to shape our world, but for what purpose, when Superman has the final say?Â
Again, these are very specific, culturally-informed tastes regarding what is and isn't acceptable fiction and what qualifies as a compelling narrative. Go back as far as or even slightly less than a century and you'll find people arguing that yes, of course a narrative about a being higher than everyone who has the final say can create a compelling narrative. Indeed, it creates what a lot of readers would consider the most important narrative.
In short, if you frame Superman as God, as you have in the paragraph above, then only in the past one-two centuries or so are you going to find a readership that's sympathetic to the claim that this is somehow a bad story.
Go into the future another decade, another two, another generation, and you're going to find these arguments shift dramatically again. They always do. Right now there's a shift towards not liking characters or narratives about people who are greater-than-average. That's fine. But it may change, and when it does, it won't necessarily be for the worse. It will just mean people value characters who are marked as greater, or special, because of intrinsic worth rather than personal achievement than they do now.
Of course, I have to say the above with a grain of salt, because there are hugely popular stories out right now about characters who are marked as being "special" in some way. Divergent series, Harry Potter, most of the urban fantasy novels on the planet - we're actually still pretty okay with "special" in fiction. RPers seem to get a bug up about it more than the average reader.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Melkire - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 01:31 PM)Verad Wrote: Of course, I have to say the above with a grain of salt, because there are hugely popular stories out right now about characters who are marked as being "special" in some way. Divergent series, Harry Potter, most of the urban fantasy novels on the planet - we're actually still pretty okay with "special" in fiction. RPers seem to get a bug up about it more than the average reader.
I think this owes itself in large part to the nature of the medium as a collaborative venue unlike any other. In roleplay, you have the potential for two narratives to come up against one another, and if you've two "special" characters and the authors don't take measures and/or don't establish some guidelines early on, they'll find themselves engaged in an arms race until both "special" characters end up so over-the-top that both narratives could be said to suffer for it.
You won't find this in most forms of writing. Novels, comic books, television, films: very rarely do you come across two intertwined narratives in which the authors have such vested personal interests that they at times find themselves cross-purposes. In contrast, you see this often in roleplay, on the tabletop, etc.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Verad - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 01:37 PM)Melkire Wrote: You won't find this in most forms of writing. Novels, comic books, television, films: very rarely do you come across two intertwined narratives in which the authors have such vested personal interests that they at times find themselves cross-purposes. In contrast, you see this often in roleplay, on the tabletop, etc.
Forgive me for pulling a greentext, truly, but:
>Comics
>No authors at cross-purposes
I've read enough mainstream comics and heard more of the same from friends to know that's so, so untrue.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Warren Castille - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:00 PM)Verad Wrote:(03-20-2015, 01:37 PM)Melkire Wrote: You won't find this in most forms of writing. Novels, comic books, television, films: very rarely do you come across two intertwined narratives in which the authors have such vested personal interests that they at times find themselves cross-purposes. In contrast, you see this often in roleplay, on the tabletop, etc.
Forgive me for pulling a greentext, truly, but:
>Comics
>No authors at cross-purposes
I've read enough mainstream comics and heard more of the same from friends to know that's so, so untrue.
That frequently has to do with authors using the character itself to fire shots at one another. We can all forgive everyone associated with Spider-Man for driving out the Brand New Day storyline.
Cross-overs are usually a "share the spotlight until Supes/Bats saves the day" kind of thing. Or if you're Marvel, "share the spotlight until the retcon."
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-20-2015
I have no issues with characters being more powerful, exciting, or lore breaking than my own.
It can be refreshing sometimes to RP with characters that are outside the power level of my character. Or who are much more skilled or knowledgeable. It's rather fun to meet someone who can do things no one else can.
So I like Mary Sues, as long as they understand what they're doing. I think too many people (including myself) get frightened of being called one, and don't explore things that would be fun.
So do something crazy imo. Play as a great black mage, or a white mage, or a warrior of light. Have the powers of a primal, a prince, a general.
Don't be afraid of what people will call you.
And no... it's not sexist.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Kage - 03-20-2015
I can see what Verad is saying but I have to say I don't quite agree that you can apply the same things. Not all of us roleplay with a GM or an editor. But comics writers, they do.
While they have large control of the character(s) they get to play with at that moment in time, they still have control of more than just one.
In roleplay, we only have "one". We only have our own characters. I find it a very large exercise to have several people collaborate and work in harmony on a narrative. Being the writer and having an editor allows them to take freer control of more characters' stories and allows them to make the most with minimal need of collaborating with someone else "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:09 PM)Kage Wrote: I can see what Verad is saying but I have to say I don't quite agree that you can apply the same things. Not all of us roleplay with a GM or an editor. But comics writers, they do.
While they have large control of the character(s) they get to play with at that moment in time, they still have control of more than just one.
In roleplay, we only have "one". We only have our own characters. I find it a very large exercise to have several people collaborate and work in harmony on a narrative. Being the writer and having an editor allows them to take freer control of more characters' stories and allows them to make the most with minimal need of collaborating with someone else "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Melkire - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:00 PM)Verad Wrote:(03-20-2015, 01:37 PM)Melkire Wrote: You won't find this in most forms of writing. Novels, comic books, television, films: very rarely do you come across two intertwined narratives in which the authors have such vested personal interests that they at times find themselves cross-purposes. In contrast, you see this often in roleplay, on the tabletop, etc.
Forgive me for pulling a greentext, truly, but:
>Comics
>No authors at cross-purposes
I've read enough mainstream comics and heard more of the same from friends to know that's so, so untrue.
With regards to comics, I meant that authors are generally not at cross-purposes within a single run of issues.
Jeph Loeb didn't have to deal with Frank Miller at the time that Loeb was writing Batman Hush, for instance. Grant Morrison could do whatever the hell he wanted with Clark Kent during All-Star Superman because it was a self-contained piece that didn't come up against any other author's narrative.
This only becomes an issue with comics as a result of crossovers, whether those be large, company-wide events or a guest appearance of other characters from other comics (which then occasionally leads to some nasty retconning back and forth).
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Kage - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as  it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".You have completely misread my statement because I never said anything about what limits what you do with your own character.
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:19 PM)Kage Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as  it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".You have completely misread my statement because I never said anything about what limits what you do with your own character.
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
Ah, I don't understand then? What do you mean by asking another player "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
Do you mean their character?
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Warren Castille - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:22 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:19 PM)Kage Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as  it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".You have completely misread my statement because I never said anything about what limits what you do with your own character.
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
Ah, I don't understand then? What do you mean by asking another player "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
Do you mean their character?
Hey Nat, is it okay if I have Eva come in shouting about democracy in my thread? I need an out to end a scene.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Kage - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:22 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:Yes. You don't exactly have to do that with a narrative in things like comics (to an extent) with every single character. Where you almost have to do that 100% in roleplay.(03-20-2015, 02:19 PM)Kage Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as  it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".You have completely misread my statement because I never said anything about what limits what you do with your own character.
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
Ah, I don't understand then? What do you mean by asking another player "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
Do you mean their character?
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-20-2015
(03-20-2015, 02:23 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:22 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:19 PM)Kage Wrote:(03-20-2015, 02:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: You should never have to ask someone if it's "Ok" to do something with your character, so long as  it does not involved making decisions for some one else 'My character stabs yours".You have completely misread my statement because I never said anything about what limits what you do with your own character.
Ergo, you're making them accept that they got stabbed.
Aside from that, you can go "Rawr I'm Ifrit" and you don't need to ask anyone. Not everyone might RP with you, but nothing wrong with it.
Ah, I don't understand then? What do you mean by asking another player "is it ok if I do this with this character?"
Do you mean their character?
Hey Nat, is it okay if I have Eva come in shouting about democracy in my thread? I need an out to end a scene.
For you Warren, always.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Melkire - 03-20-2015
Ahem. Let's not derail the thread in a "yes" "no" "yes" "no" fashion. Moving on.
RE: Opinion question: Is Mary Sue Sexist? - Warren Castille - 03-20-2015
The reason I'd asked was to demonstrate. I have no ownership over Nat's characters (her "brands" so to speak) but I've got free reign to ask to use them if needed. That still doesn't give me permission to do anything outlandish with them, the question isn't "Hey Nat, can I borrow Eva for a while?" I can't come back later and explain that the road was icy and Eva's in a snowbank somewhere.
Roleplayers shared the world we're all in on a direct level. In world RP, we don't even really have NPCs or anything. I think the fear of being a Sue or godmoding comes from wanting the relative power level to not lean too far in one writer's direction, outside of course of events where you effectively give consent to be there. If I sign up for a snowball fight, I should expect that other writers are going to enact snowballs on me.
Edit: I suppose I should have told her that.