Hydaelyn Role-Players
Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea (/showthread.php?tid=11581)

Pages: 1 2

Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Lilia Lia - 05-12-2015

I RP a character who is a private tutor.  Lately I am starting to flesh that out complete with the implications of it from a lore and setting point-of-view. 

I have been trying to find lore information on what education in Eorzea is like.  Because of the lack of schoolhouses I am under the impression that education is largely vocational (i.e. handled by the trade guilds) and that there is no public education system in any of the city-states.  I also infer this from the apparently low level of literacy as well as the game's setting being in a kind of quasi-medieval-Europe. 

But because of the amount of books, scholars and so forth, there obviously needs to be some form of organized education.  So where are all the schools?  Is there maybe something like English governesses, i.e. people hired by the wealthy to provide a combination of caretaking and education for young children inside of their homes?

One thing I was wondering is whether we can infer that the Ossuary in Ul'dah does a lot of public education.  It seems that they are a public authority in and of themselves and responsible for many of the laws there, as well as being probably the largest "library" that you can find.  But when you walk in you don't see students of things not related to thaumaturgy, at least not among the NPCs.

Something else to keep in mind is that historically speaking, religious institutions used to provide a lot of free public education, so by analogy you might wonder whether any of the religious institutions of Eorzea have charitable education programs for the public.

Then again, a big problem with this is that you pretty much never see children anywhere in Eorzea, let alone a schoolhouse containing children.  Maybe there's an off-continent boarding school that literally every child in Eorzea gets sent to until they reach physical maturity.

Anyways, food for thought, but I'm wondering if anyone else has explored this.  It seemed like a pretty major thing when I was writing my own character's backstory, but there doesn't seem to be a lot to go on.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Blue - 05-12-2015

I do remember the Lore Panel saying that the majority of Eorzea is illiterate, so yes, I think education is mostly vocational and focused on practice, teaching father-to-son, mother-to-daughter and where the offsprings will generally take up the same trade as their parents. I could see the richest hiring tutors for their children, though. I RP an upper-class Ul'dahn lady who has her child educated by a full-time mentor who lives in their quarters with his family, like servants lived at their lord's place in the past, in more humble buildings placed within the holding.

As for the Ossuary, I believe their main duty in Ul'dahn society is take on the rituals of burial (I could be wrong, it's been a while since I did my THM research in 2013), so I don't know about education that goes past that field of teaching. Last year I did try to launch a series of mentorship mini-events located at each guilds, with RPers taking the part of teachers and others taking the part of students. It lasted for a month or so, but then it faded back down because apparently the classes weren't attended much. It's a shame, because I think that school is a great way to socialize and build bonds, since you are forced to spend one or two hours with the same people almost every day.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Mae - 05-12-2015

While the Lore Panel did say that most of Eorzea is illiterate... I'd like to point out all the posters and flyers laying about that have writing. And all the quests that have you bringing notes/letters to people, and there is only ONE NPC that I've ever encountered that has said "Sorry, I can't read, can you read it to me?"

Formal education in many places was historically (yes, yes, I'm going to go there and make a Real World comparison!) for the privileged/upper-class and the religious -- children of poor families were often turned over/pledged to churches for a chance of education. If you were middle-class, you got vocational education, which did include a certain amount of knowing how to read, write, and maths for ledger work and taking orders. Lower-class, you might know what your name looks like and maybe a prayer or two; MAYBE over the course of your lifetime you'd self-teach to recognize fixed signs (name of town living in, types of shops).

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Lilia Lia - 05-12-2015

(05-12-2015, 05:52 PM)Mae Wrote: Formal education in many places was historically (yes, yes, I'm going to go there and make a Real World comparison!) for the privileged/upper-class and the religious -- children of poor families were often turned over/pledged to churches for a chance of education. If you were middle-class, you got vocational education, which did include a certain amount of knowing how to read, write, and maths for ledger work and taking orders. Lower-class, you might know what your name looks like and maybe a prayer or two; MAYBE over the course of your lifetime you'd self-teach to recognize fixed signs (name of town living in, types of shops).

This seems like a good match with the game world.  I think it's fine to make assumptions about Eorzea on the basis of real history where there's nothing else to go on, since it's like 99% similar.

It also seems consistent with the low literacy rate and lack of large educational institutions. I was also kind of wondering whether there were, say, universities or academies.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Sounsyy - 05-12-2015

There isn't a lot of lore behind this. I agree pretty much with your assessments of the setting. Eorzea has no known schools or standardized learning. Private tutors seem the most likely education "system."

In Sharlayan, an island nation in the Bloodbrine Sea, there is a school called the Studium, to which all Sharlayans attend until a certain age. These students are called the Students of Baldesion. However, Sharlayan is noted as the seat of learning in the world, placing knowledge and studies above all else. This seems very much in keeping with their city-states values that have been in place at least 1,400 years.

There's also mention of the Great Library. We don't yet know it's exact location, but its hinted that it belongs to the Near Eastern nation of Radz-at-Han in Thavnair. At the end of the Zodiac weapon quest, it's brought up that Jalzahn (a highly educated and well renowned Thavnairian scholar) was descendant from a long line of scholars of aetherial studies. This hints towards another nation that may highly regard education. This lends some credence to Fernehalwes calling places outside of Eorzea more... "progressive."

Another instance I can think of is in Gridania, the orphaned children are taken care of by Mother Miounne, but seem to receive some kind of education from Beatin, the Timbermaster. In 1.0, Fufucha, the head of the Botanist guild also took on the role as educator to the children.

In Ul'dah, the Order of Nald'thal may also play a role in "public" education, though no reference to this has been made and is merely speculation. There is a rather large library which consists of historical tomes, magical practices (not just Thaumaturgy), creation stories, occult readings, etc. The former High Priest and Guildmaster of the Order, Mumuepo was a huge collector of tomes. It was his passion. Whether this library was open to the public or not is unknown. But considering the Milvaneth Sacrarium imposes a toll on those wishing to worship Nald, the same policy may also be true over at the Ossuary. Which would likely limit all but the most affluent of Ul'dahn youth.


There's also several references to various scholars, naturalists, theologians, etc throughout fishing lore and even the Moogle quests. "The Hazy Professor" in particular addresses a few interesting things:

The Hazy Professor Wrote:The addresse this time is Professor Lamberteint, whose reputation as an aetherial researcher is soaring. Now, his three greatest pupils have some business with him, and have sent one missive apiece.

You deliver the letters, only to discover that Lamberteint has no memory of you. With barely a word of apology, he instead informs you of his symposium.

...

Lamberteint then names you an honorary member of the intellectual circle, and calls upon you all to continue studying the aether.

Then there's a few mentions in Fishing lore and some housing items text: (I'll spoiler these for length)

Show Content

There's frequent mentions of symposiums, intellectual debate and gathering, etc. They must all meet, teach, study, and educate each other somewhere. These are all noted as being Eorzean naturalists. So... obviously... they're there? Just... who knows where.

Hope this helps! ^^;

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - allgivenover - 05-12-2015

While there's certainly room for scholars in a world that's mostly illiterate, the word of god dispelled any doubt about the average level of literacy.

Word of God: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/187844-Hunt-Bills?p=2375917#post2375917

Quote:As I (think I may have) mentioned in a past post, literacy rates in Eorzea are quite low. The only people who can read/write are usually the educated writing for the educated. This causes them to use an overly complex jumble of jargon that sounds little like what is actually spoken in Eorzea. The spelling and lack of punctuation can be blamed on the fact that because there were so few people who could read or write, there was really no standardized set of rules. This left those who were literate to make up their own rules (which was pretty much what every educated man and woman did).

I imagine it's much like early-mid Renaissance literacy rates, which means literacy rates are as low as 5% or as high as 40% depending on where you are. I'm basing that on Eorzea being most like the early-mid Renaissance period, and in no way should be taken as official. (The 40% rate would be found among merchant groups who employ notaries for example.)

An example of Eorzean writing:

Quote:Let it be knowne that as is writ
withinnne Hunt edict fair pecuniary
requital shall be stowed upon
he who slayeth aforesaid mark.

Despite all this, I do think it's very likely that many people can recognize some written words, even if they can't spell them out themselves. Arbitrary example behind my reasoning: let's imagine an illiterate Eorzean whose job is to lug around barrels all day that are labeled "wine" or "ale". Illiterate or not you'll eventually pick up on what these words look like.

Being illiterate isn't the same as being stupid after all.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Imo - 05-13-2015

And yet at the same time, notes and letters written by and/or adressed to lower-class citizens appear all the time in the game. I smell an inconsistency.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - D'aito Kuji - 05-13-2015

We could be seeing the early stages of a print revolution in Eorzea.  After the Gutenberg press started to become more common, from 1425 to 1500 printing exploded around Europe and helped to cause a revolution in information sharing and changed the political and religious landscapes because it gave more people access to new points of view.

Literacy rates during this period of time weren't especially high but that didn't stop millions of copies of things from being developed.

While the majority of a nation could be illiterate, a population of sufficient numbers could still have millions who were not.

Perhaps adventurers are uncommonly literate, leading to various levels of discomfort with their place of origin, which inspired them to leave and explore.

But for the most part, I agree that the Lore is inconsistent with the reality that can be observed.  Then again, how many common folk do adventurers run into?  NPCs are presumably a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  This makes drawing conclusions challenging.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Khadan - 05-13-2015

Well it could be a the difference between 'literacy' and symbol recognition. Like most kids know before they can even read well what a red octagonal sign with the word "STOP" on it means. They recognize the symbols more than the actual word. The Eorzean alphabet is pretty 'rune rich' and, (once again engaging in IRL comparison thought crimes) 'back in the day' even illiterate workers, sailors, and soldiers all generally knew what "tavern" was or "food". Generally because there are always recognizable symbols and words that everyone generally knows. If an illiterate person actually needed to have a letter written then there was always a ready supply of clerks to hire who would take dictation for you, a profession that means something entirely different, today as the expectation is literacy by age 10 give or take (assuming we're talking the Western World here of course). 

I suppose you could call that the difference between 'actual literacy' and 'passable literacy'. Though there does seem to be this odd disparity with the expectation of the 'layperson' being largely illiterate yet a large prevalence on letters and books which might dictate that literacy is more widespread than we're led to believe. I think the quote is "A large portion of Eorzea is illiterate" so it also could be that the term 'large' just means anything over 30% which by our standards today is pretty significant when it comes to illiteracy.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - allgivenover - 05-13-2015

(05-13-2015, 04:37 AM)Imo Wrote: And yet at the same time, notes and letters written by and/or adressed to lower-class citizens appear all the time in the game. I smell an inconsistency.

There is some inconsistency as illiterate people are inderrepresemted in the setting.

But we could argue all day whether the in-game portrayal overruled the devspeak. Personally I think our PCs run in mostly educated circles.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Hammersmith - 05-13-2015

A similar point is that a majority of the Eorzian population is completely unseen and unrepresented.  Hundreds/thousands of farmers, laborers, miners, etc etc and other people who are simply handwaved to exist and supply the areas we as players run in.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Zyrusticae - 05-13-2015

(05-13-2015, 12:20 PM)Daitokuji Wrote:  NPCs are presumably a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  This makes drawing conclusions challenging.
I assume you actually meant 'PCs' and not 'NPCs' here, or else you're stating the exact opposite of what is intended by the developers.

(05-13-2015, 01:04 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: A similar point is that a majority of the Eorzian population is completely unseen and unrepresented.  Hundreds/thousands of farmers, laborers, miners, etc etc and other people who are simply handwaved to exist and supply the areas we as players run in.
Exactly this. Just because you SEE a lot more PCs than NPCs doesn't mean that that is what the reality is supposed to be within the fictional universe.

In Eorzea's "reality", PCs are supposed to be the .1%, the elite of the elite, the exceptions to all the rules. Obviously, the game can't actually represent this because rendering out enormous, several-square-KM size cities with hundreds of thousands of inhabitants is pretty much technically impossible and also bad from a game design sense. Maybe some day in the distant future we will actually be able to do something like that... but not today. As such, a certain level of separation from gameplay and story is absolutely required.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Lilia Lia - 05-13-2015

(05-13-2015, 01:22 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 12:20 PM)Daitokuji Wrote:  NPCs are presumably a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  This makes drawing conclusions challenging.
I assume you actually meant 'PCs' and not 'NPCs' here, or else you're stating the exact opposite of what is intended by the developers.

I think she was drawing a distinction between NPCs that appear in-game and the NPCs that are in the "background."  I.e. it's hard to make generalizations about the people of Eorzea when the NPCs that we interact with are such a small part of the actual world's population.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - Dracyn - 05-13-2015

I think part of the inconsistencies also lie in the religious aspect of the culture. We're trying to compare this world to our own where a major religion held sway both politically and scientifically for over a thousand years. They quite literally kept the population of the known world ignorant. I won't get into if it was deliberate or some odd side effect, but it did happen. 


This world however has a religion that supports education. In fact there's several deities dedicated to knowledge, experimentation, and exploration. This religion also holds little political sway in most places. 

So we're really dealing with a world that is only held back by the cycles of destruction that plague it.

RE: Lore Question about Education and Childhood in Eorzea - D'aito Kuji - 05-13-2015

(05-13-2015, 02:02 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 01:22 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(05-13-2015, 12:20 PM)Daitokuji Wrote:  NPCs are presumably a tiny, tiny fraction of the population.  This makes drawing conclusions challenging.
I assume you actually meant 'PCs' and not 'NPCs' here, or else you're stating the exact opposite of what is intended by the developers.

I think she was drawing a distinction between NPCs that appear in-game and the NPCs that are in the "background."  I.e. it's hard to make generalizations about the people of Eorzea when the NPCs that we interact with are such a small part of the actual world's population.

'Tis indeed what I meant. Smile