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+--- Thread: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? (/showthread.php?tid=12251)
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Clover - 06-24-2015
Maybe opinions like mine have been stated before, as I haven't read the whole thread.
In RP, I separate IC and OOC. I'm not one to make powerful main characters myself, but I'd consider it unfair if only people with a lot of free time and the will to grind their levels were allowed to RP powerful characters.
Back in Aion, a person who RPed a 9 years old noble girl wanted to be more powerful than a 400 years old war veteran. The reason? That his character was max level, while the war veteran was not because his player seriously didn't have the time. The little free time he had was spent... RPing (and he was very good at it). There wasn't any good IC reason for that girl to be stronger; it was simply absurd from an IC point of view. Mixing OOC with IC can create such situations.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Gegenji - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:46 PM)Dogberry Wrote: In the second instance, it's entirely possible to play a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug at level 1. Characters lead lives before we create them, and if that's been his life so far, it's fine, people can spend years in mediocrity and obscurity before they make their major break. Level 1 for me represents the first break from mediocrity.
Understandable. But how much power would attribute to this thug? Purely based on level, he wouldn't have much at all. Yet, if - RP-wise - he has spent his entire life fighting and struggling and in constant conflict, he could have quite a bit. Not just in physical power, but in combat experience from all the brawls he's gotten into.
So, say your character is walking down the street after a nice night at the pub, and this thug accosts you. Would you write him off because of the level difference? Keep in mind, you - as the player - have no idea of this rich and storied history this guy has created. All you see is a shirtless level one Highlander Pugilist in his starting gear pants and his weathered hora. And he's emoting that he's trying to mug you.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Sin - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:48 PM)Dogberry Wrote:(06-24-2015, 03:38 PM)Sin Wrote: Not by judging their emotes, or making a value call based on their clothes IC'ly, but by inspecting their character and declaring because of that OOC knowledge that your character knows they're a novice.
Can you show me where I said this?
Damn man, now you're asking me to go back through all these posts and I'm hella lazy.
Here it is though....
"Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have."--Dogberry
@Melkire
I did not mean ic'ly respecting them. Roleplaying right bastards is fun as the seven hells, I meant more.... respecting a person's creation.
It's a creative endeavor. People create a character they like and are oftentimes proud of. I think despite if you like it or not like it you should respect their creation.
It doesn't mean that your character shouldn't be a right bastard if they would think so IC'ly, just that you should not be a dick about it. It's a slight difference. The difference between emoting that your character thinks the person is crazy, and emoting in narrator voice that the person is crazy. As I said, slight difference, but one of those respects both characters in the scene, and the other one steps and poops all over that person's creation. Do you get me?
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:54 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(06-24-2015, 03:46 PM)Dogberry Wrote: In the second instance, it's entirely possible to play a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug at level 1. Characters lead lives before we create them, and if that's been his life so far, it's fine, people can spend years in mediocrity and obscurity before they make their major break. Level 1 for me represents the first break from mediocrity.
Understandable. But how much power would attribute to this thug? Purely based on level, he wouldn't have much at all. Yet, if - RP-wise - he has spent his entire life fighting and struggling and in constant conflict, he could have quite a bit. Not just in physical power, but in combat experience from all the brawls he's gotten into.
So, say your character is walking down the street after a nice night at the pub, and this thug accosts you. Would you write him off because of the level difference? Keep in mind, you - as the player - have no idea of this rich and storied history this guy has created. All you see is a shirtless level one Highlander Pugilist in his starting gear pants and his weathered hora. And he's emoting that he's trying to mug you.
My practical answer to this would be for Dogberry to assume the guy's just some cream puff, and then settle the fight with dice. If Dogberry loses, he loses. The truth is, unskilled fighters beating skilled ones isn't unheard of. In the case of a loss, Dog's ego is bruised, and he gets salty over a lucky punch. If he wins, he can then go on to critique the guy's fighting style.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:57 PM)Sin Wrote: "Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have."--Dogberry
Emphasis mine. You seem to think I'm going to check someone's profile to judge them but I don't see how what I said could give you that impression.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Sin - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:Emphasis mine.(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote: So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low?
There are names for that kind of behavior in RP. They're metagaming and godmoding.
The journey can be roleplayed without game mechanics.
Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have.
If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.
If I misjudged and you did not see the second part of that question, then we've been going along different paths here.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Melkire - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:57 PM)Sin Wrote: @Melkire
I did not mean ic'ly respecting them. Roleplaying right bastards is fun as the seven hells, I meant more.... respecting a person's creation.
It's a creative endeavor. People create a character they like and are oftentimes proud of. I think despite if you like it or not like it you should respect their creation.
It doesn't mean that your character shouldn't be a right bastard if they would think so IC'ly, just that you should not be a dick about it. It's a slight difference. The difference between emoting that your character thinks the person is crazy, and emoting in narrator voice that the person is crazy. As I said, slight difference, but one of those respects both characters in the scene, and the other one steps and poops all over that person's creation. Do you get me?
Sorry, I should have been more clear:
Out of character, I will make fun of and look down on and disrespect Pinkie Pie Miqo'te as a character concept. Partly because it's hilarious, partly because it's not something I care to have to roleplay with. That said, I won't be a dick about it, won't throw that laughter or disrespect into their face or into a public space. I'll either keep it to myself or to a private space. I'll also - because it is my choice, my $15, and my perogative - choose to avoid encountering or interacting with that character.
Out of character, I will respect Pinkie Pie Miqo'te's player, their choices, their decision to roleplay said character, because it's their time and entertainment, not mine. I may even get along great with the player in OoC channels, maybe even tells. I just won't roleplay with Pinke Pie Miqo'te.
In character, if inadvertently confronted by Pinkie Pie Miqo'te despite my OoC attempts to avoid our characters colliding in narrative, my character will react as my character is wont to.
...this is all ironic in light of the pink Miqo'te child that can be found somewhere in Heavensward's areas. I assure you that my discontent with such a concept is not the color but rather the "I'm a pony from a different setting/universe altogether!" aspect.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 04:13 PM)Sin Wrote:(06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:Emphasis mine.(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote: So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low?
There are names for that kind of behavior in RP. They're metagaming and godmoding.
The journey can be roleplayed without game mechanics.
Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have.
If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.
If I misjudged and you did not see the second part of that question, then we've been going along different paths here.
I interpreted inspect as "taking a look at", not "right click and examine".
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Thorgar - 06-24-2015
This is why i do not make thousand year old martial masters of godly smiting and fresh cookies, when your doing table top you have more freedom to play with the story. In a MMORPG you have to conform to the world and its standards. You would not respect the "200 year old lallafel that tamed Bahumut and left him in the moon because he was bored" character.
In MMORPG's i always create a character that is starting his adventure or new life, they may have experience at something but circumstances and choices do not let him be UBERMIENCH or even more than he currently is.Â
Good example is my Warrior from WoW that was a defrocked Priest who had lost faith in the light. I could use lore to have knowledge of a priest but by choice and circumstance hes just a starting sell sword now.
As to the main topic, i think your characters levels and skills are more IC than OOC and should be used as a guideline. I see a lvl one character with starting gear but get told that hes Odin's bastard son and has seen a thousand wars unscathed, im gonna think hes nuts (ICly) or a bad RP'er (oocly).
Having an epic character is cool, but have a reason for them not to be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound or dismantle the aetheric wave forms with a toothpick. Have a 300 year old elf who has seen 100 years of combat but your only lvl 2, have him been 50 years out of practice/fitness.
I had a City of Heroes player who's character was the son of an Archangel, who had the power to counter anyone's powers (even if it was power armor) if he got into a bind. That kinda thing burned me out on god level PC's, i think its just bad RP and god modding.
As soon as you ignore the ooc and create something from your ego you run the risk of ruining the fun of the other players. now just breaking the mold and doing something unique is cool, just expect some hiccups when your fellow RP'er is confused at why your lvl 4 is communing with primals and getting them to tap dance lol
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Faye - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 03:49 PM)Melkire Wrote: ...when did being respectful of others' characters become a requirement or a communal expectation?
I'm totally down for respecting others' rights to RP what they want, to spend their $15 and make use of it the way they want, etc. ... but to me, that doesn't translate into a necessity to respect someone's character.
I'm going to laugh at the interdimensional traveler who is Pinkie Pie from MLP:FiM reincarnated as a Miqo'te and runs around town declaring such. I can't help that. That has to do with my preferences. I won't try to shut them down; it's their time, their money, and their fun. That, I can and will respect, and I'd hope everyone would feel the same. That said? I will quietly remove myself from the vicinity so that I can roleplay in a separate space from them so as to avoid clashing.
Conversely, folks can feel free to make fun of my characters and laugh at them / diss them / etc. Hell, at times I roleplay a lore-breaking LOST-smoke-monster zombie. That's absolutely ridiculous and I don't expect anyone to respect that character... but it's there for folks who want to roleplay with it, and I won't force that character on anyone, nor do I ever expect others to be okay with it or accept it or spend time anywhere near it.
EDIT: tl;dr, I respect players, I don't necessarily respect each and every character concept. That's just me, though, as a person.
It happened whenever people started developing this strange idea that having an opinion and preferences means you're going to try to enforce your personal feelings on everyone you meet.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Cato - 06-24-2015
The idea that people should never, ever criticise or make quips about an unusual character concept is really quite bizarre. If somebody chooses to portray their character as the long lost daughter of Minifilia then those of us who respect the lore have every right to roll our eyes and let out a sigh. We should even be allowed to make jokes at their expense.
The mentality that 'it's my £9.99 a month, I can do what I want' is true to some extent but it does not make people immune to criticism. If you want to take major liberties with a character concept then people are going to make judgement - and that's fine, since if there weren't any standards at all then the world would be a pretty scary place.
That's not to suggest that people should hound and harass the culprits but I don't think there's any real harm in people making a few jokes at the expense of the more unusual character concepts that people come up with. Most of us are, presumably, here to role-play something relevant to FFXIV at the end of the day. If people want to role-play something completely different...then there's other avenues such as Skype for the more strange stuff.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Dogberry - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 02:52 PM)Aya Wrote: I don't understand why MMO RP should lack the same sense of imagination that other RP embraces. Why place such unnecessary limits on it? The OOC game in FF, not to mention the MSQ, results in characters so ridiculous that they cannot be RPed plausibly. So why is there any reason to turn that ridiculous equation around?
It just doesn't make sense to me. Not to mention the shortcomings of the game in representing the full breadth of actual professions and skill sets available in the world of Eorzea (a shortcoming strictly shared by any MMO, by necessity).Â
Live, and play free. Its more fun that way (at least to me).
Edit: I just want to add that these is one of those unresolvable, intractable, and forever standing philosophical disagreements that occur within RP communities. There is no real way to reach consensus; its just a matter that people disagree on :-]
Am I limiting it, though? I certainly won't tell you that you can't play a waitress, or a model. If someone wants to be Eorzea's greatest plumber, shine on you crazy diamond. Those things are outside the scope of the game, though. The game is about high fantasy swords and sorcery, so most people are going to make characters suited for that in order to maximize their story potential. So if you're making a character in line with the scope of the game, why would your power not be in some way, even on a severe sliding scale, tied to their in game avatar?
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Sin - 06-24-2015
(06-24-2015, 04:15 PM)Melkire Wrote: Sorry, I should have been more clear:
Out of character, I will make fun of and look down on and disrespect Pinkie Pie Miqo'te as a character concept. Partly because it's hilarious, partly because it's not something I care to have to roleplay with. That said, I won't be a dick about it, won't throw that laughter or disrespect into their face or into a public space. I'll either keep it to myself or to a private space. I'll also - because it is my choice, my $15, and my perogative - choose to avoid encountering or interacting with that character.
Out of character, I will respect Pinkie Pie Miqo'te's player, their choices, their decision to roleplay said character, because it's their time and entertainment, not mine. I may even get along great with the player in OoC channels, maybe even tells. I just won't roleplay with Pinke Pie Miqo'te.
In character, if inadvertently confronted by Pinkie Pie Miqo'te despite my OoC attempts to avoid our characters colliding in narrative, my character will react as my character is wont to.
...this is all ironic in light of the pink Miqo'te child that can be found somewhere in Heavensward's areas. I assure you that my discontent with such a concept is not the color but rather the "I'm a pony from a different setting/universe altogether!" aspect.
That's fine. We all do that, and the concept you've presented is crazy enough I think most people would make comments about it to their inner circle. That's natural.
I agree with what you're saying. What I'm trying to say is that to have your character know flaws in the person's stance if they are roleplaying a Level 1 kung fu master based solely on the number displayed when you Examine the person or Search them is metagaming and in my opinion should be frowned upon for those more concerned with a pure storytelling aspect. At that point, where you are assigning flaws to their concept based on level, then no longer are you just saying that's not my style and going off to roleplay with others more in line with your tastes.
At that point, you are making your concept override their concept, not by thinking that they are crazy, not by thinking that they see flaws, (that's okay) but by knowing that they have flaws you have godmodded your way above their concept and have disrespected it, and them. That's what I'm saying should not be done. That's not quietly removing yourself from the situation, that's actively pooping on the concept.
It's much more directed at what prompted my renewed involvement in the thread. A situation in which a lowbie roleplaying a kung fu master is examined, determined to be low level, and then roleplayed with as if they were unquestionably a novice based on their level.
(06-24-2015, 04:17 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I interpreted inspect as "taking a look at", not "right click and examine".
Which brings me to this, I meant examine. But let me bring this around from our misunderstanding to being more in line with the thread and my opinions.
ICly judging a character based on how they IC'ly look. Two thumbs up.
IC'ly judging a character based on game mechanics like level or OOC achievements. Not cool, and staunching of creativity. (I know a lot of cool people that could probably roleplay some badass uber powerful people, but would never touch Coil. I don't want to limit their creativity because they don't have the time I do."
@Faye and Graehem.
I think you guys are misinterpreting what I'm saying or perhaps I did not make myself clear. I'm quite tired from grinding in HW.
There's a line between making quips and being a dick that should not be crossed. That's all I'm saying. I agree with you two, and I'm as much a lore nazi, and as picky as they come. I'm just not a dick about it. The situation presented by Dogberry seemed to cross that line to me. That's all I'm saying.
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Lilia Lia - 06-24-2015
Is it necessary to respect other people's characters? Absolutely not. Nor is it necessary to respect other people's desires, preferences, headcanons, and so forth.
Is it advisable? I would think so. If you can respect as many RP styles as you can, you ought to. If you can limit yourself according to accepted community etiquette, and maybe make small sacrifices on your creative vision in the interest of not annoying other people, then it may very well be worthwhile.
This is why it's important to have these conversations, so we can understand the diversity of attitudes and respect one another more. Ultimately I think that's a much better attitude to have than "it's my money I'll do what I want, if you don't like it go RP with someone else."
RE: How important is OOC achievement when playing a powerful character ICly? - Cato - 06-24-2015
I don't think anybody is trying to dictate what anybody else should be doing. They're simply stating that if someone takes massive liberties with the lore then they shouldn't be surprised if their character raises eyebrows/leads people to cease interaction with them.
It's a lot like in real life. If I go to a restaurant and there's someone slurping loudly whilst eating their soup they're not technically doing anything wrong but they're still - understandably - going to be judged and potentially avoided for it.
Not the best example, perhaps, but hopefully people understand what I'm getting at.Â
I've found that most role-players within this community are more than willing to tolerate the lore being bent provided it's done in a way that is plausible. It is my firm belief that if someone is deliberately going out of their way to embrace an unusual concept then it is their responsibility to make it seem plausible whilst also acknowledging that nobody is in the wrong for not wanting to interact with them.
On a side note, true creativity, to me isn't doing anything and everything under the sun but rather making an interesting character that is unique whilst also feeling like it fits in the game world.