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Doma lore and religion question - Aalriya - 08-16-2015
So I know that Doman’s do not worship the twelve as Eorzean’s do. It does mention in the ninja storyline that they worship nature and spirits. So do the Raen and Doman’s have a Shinto based belief system involving Kami? I am working on Seira’s religious beliefs/philosophy, and was thinking instead of being a white mage/conjurer ICly, that she would be a Shrine maiden as that would fit perfectly with being Japanese edo-era as the Raen are. Just not a whole lot of lore on Doma or Raen. Would love any thoughts on the matter<3 Please?
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Kaniko Niko - 08-16-2015
I can say that the idea has also crossed my mind long before Heavensward, and all signs thusfar do point to Shinto animism as the sort of driving belief system of Doma. However, there really isn't any concrete detail yet.
But! The most important part is, of course, to have fun with it. You already have pieces to the puzzle, what harm can come about if you fill in the gaps?
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Virella - 08-16-2015
While I do not like outright copy pasting things from real life, because the game happens takes inspiration from it; I think having a conjurer with a shrine to honor the spirits the Doman believe in is a far stretch from imagination! After all, we got that oriental altar ingame for one, so they must be doing something in terms of prayer no doubt!
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Sounsyy - 08-16-2015
This question came up recently in a similar thread. In short, Domans and other East Othard natives like the Raen may be Elemental worshipers - whether they are aware of it or not is unclear. The Domans might even refer to the Elementals as kami if such a thing was brought up? So, I would say you definitely have enough lore backing to support this reasoning, and this elemental worship practiced by the Domans may very well be inspired by Shinto belief.
Hope this helps! ^^
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Yssen - 08-16-2015
(08-16-2015, 07:18 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: This question came up recently in a similar thread. In short, Domans and other East Othard natives like the Raen may be Elemental worshipers - whether they are aware of it or not is unclear. The Domans might even refer to the Elementals as kami if such a thing was brought up? So, I would say you definitely have enough lore backing to support this reasoning, and this elemental worship practiced by the Domans may very well be inspired by Shinto belief.
Hope this helps! ^^
Doesn't the lore entry for the Au Ra (both Raen and Xaele) state that they worship a Duskmother and a Dawnfather? Granted, this probably only applies to the Au Ra.Â
Also, while the Domans may worship elemental spirits and the world around them, it seems like a bit of a stretch to say they worship the big "E" Elementals. The Elementals are presently found only in the shroud, and specifically closed it off when they first invaded.Â
The similarity to Shinto is a good route to go as far as speculation (particularly when you can draw a direct parallel with the Duskmother and Dawnfather). I just do not think that "kami" elementals would be the same as Shroud Elementals. Why would they not have plopped themselves into the Shroud with the others is sorta boggling, but that is not to say the could not be related concepts. Yar.
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-16-2015
Somewhat off-topic to the OP, but not to recent conversation, but big "E" Elementals are everywhere. It'd just that they make themselves known in the Shroud due to protect from the Hedge.
They are -everywhere-. Just....hidden.
In regards to a Dusk Mother and Dawn Father, they are called the origin of the Au Ra. I don't think they're necessarily worshipped.
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Sounsyy - 08-16-2015
(08-16-2015, 08:06 PM)Yssen Wrote: Doesn't the lore entry for the Au Ra (both Raen and Xaele) state that they worship a Duskmother and a Dawnfather? Granted, this probably only applies to the Au Ra.
Au Ra Naming Conventions Wrote:Auri creation myth tells of a Dawn Father and a Dusk Mother from whom all Au Ra are descended. The Raen believe their veins to run thick with the blood of the former─their brilliant white scales and iron wills serving as proof of this divine lineage.
Auri creation myth tells of a Dawn Father and a Dusk Mother from whom all Au Ra are descended. The Xaela believe their veins to run thick with the blood of the latter─their lustrous black scales and fiery wills serving as proof of this divine lineage.
Arguably, the use of the word "divine" could have a religious connotation. However, neither Raen nor Xaela tribal lore dictates any unified religious beliefs or preferences, so they could just as easily not worship the Dawn Father or Dusk Mother.
(08-16-2015, 08:06 PM)Yssen Wrote: Also, while the Domans may worship elemental spirits and the world around them, it seems like a bit of a stretch to say they worship the big "E" Elementals. The Elementals are presently found only in the shroud, and specifically closed it off when they first invaded.Â
Elementals are Nature incarnate, beings of pure aether. They are everywhere:
(And to be fair, elementals are never capitalized in game, ever. I merely have a habit of capitalizing "Elementals" to separate the taxonomy of what Gridanians refer to as "Great Ones" versus "lesser elementals" such as fae, sprites, homunculi, and carbuncles. All of which appear in game outside of the Twelveswood, including a "Great One" in La Noscea.)
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Yssen - 08-16-2015
If you go with a Shinto parallel, that would include some form an ancestor worship, which I could easily see the Au Ra doing, particularly if they are wrapped up in the whole divine bloodline thing. Still most of the parallel would be speculation. Relatively well based speculation, but speculation none the less. We do not know the specifics, but it is fun to try and figure stuff out. Yar.
It is also important to draw a line of distinction between elementals in the Shroud and elementals else where. Largely for the following reasons;
1. The Shroud Elementals took over, they were not always active in the Black Shroud all the time. They gathered up, enforced their will and attempted to push out both the Ixal and the Elezen.
2. The Shroud Elementals required an entire society to agree to a pact in order to live in the Shroud. To live there people are required to submit to their will.
3. Citing that pact they required a race turn on its own and destroy an entire city, igniting a blood feud in the Elezen race that extends to this very day.
4. They wrested control over an entire source of magic that was once commonplace, and dole it out only to their chosen.Â
5. They continuously and callously enforce a harsh set of rules on the people of Gridania, and the Conjureror's that practice there.
The Shroud elementals are restrictive, oppressive, and probably not so much a the grand benevolent force that some NPCs think they are, or would have us believe they are (not that those NPCs are directly lying, they likely just don't know everything).Â
The distinction is somewhat important because the Ninja quests where we find out more about how Doman spirituality and how Ninjutsu work do not reveal that there is any kind of string or stricture placed on the use of Ninjutsu (other than needing to be able to channel aether, and having there required training. They also have not revealed to us that they have been put under any sort of forceful stricture or restriction (save by the Garleans). Thus I think it is slightly important to make the distinction between regular elemental worship and worship and reverence of the elementals in the Shroud. The two groups of nature incarnate things do not seem to act in the same manner at all.
Fun side note: Elementals absolutely can die with in the boundaries of the Hedge. There are 3 murdered "Great Ones" seen when we are introduced to Kan-E-Senna in 1.0. There is a theory that she herself killed them in order to reform the Twin Adders and become its leader, but I do not think this is actually so.
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Aalriya - 08-17-2015
Thank you everyone for your thoughts on it!! Aye there is not much to go off of, but I wanted to try to remain lore friendly with what I was thinking. I was heavily leaning towards the Shinto way of praying and paying respect to the kami (nature, animal, and spirits of man, which could actually include elemental aye) though I was thinking of it more in a spiritual way, as well as paying reverence to ones ancestors. Not so much like the elemental's in the shroud. Instead of being a white mage, she would be a shrine maiden. I wasn't thinking of going full on copy for copy of edo-era japan, but was wondering how relevant that era of Japanese beliefs would be to Doma and Rean beliefs, and religion, as so much about Doma seems to fit from that era.
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Sounsyy - 08-17-2015
(08-16-2015, 11:38 PM)Yssen Wrote: It is also important to draw a line of distinction between elementals in the Shroud and elementals else where.
It's a more than fair distinction to make, but the behavioral differences between elementals found within the Twelveswood and those without in the rest of Hydaelyn does not equate to a taxonomy difference. Given that the NPC descriptions offered by Conjurers of Gridania and Oboro are nearly identical, I see no reason to believe that the Othardian Elemental is any different than the Twelveswood Elemental or from the Eorzean Elemental, taxonomy-wise, which is what your post seemed to imply. I believe that all places in Hydaelyn have some number of "Great Ones" (whether they are called that or not) or equivalent, regardless of whether they exhibit wrathful tendencies towards Mankind.
But I can wholly get behind that there is a distinct difference between the behavior of Twelveswood Elementals and other Elementals. But I believe much of this behavioral difference stems from the Twelveswood Elementals specifically having to conjure a flood to drown the world to save it from its denizens, the Magi. Considering it was, in part, the Amdaporians' misuse of the Elementals' gifted magic that drained the world of its aether, I don't see it being hard to imagine why this specific group of Elementals would be more cautious around mankind. As mankind continues to make a mess of things, the Elementals continue to be angry at them.
Raya-O-Senna Wrote:Oha-Sok is the collective fury of the elementals given form. Their suffering summoned her forth, and in her turn she stokes the fire of their rage with her keening. As I related to you earlier, it was the rage of the elementals that brought an end to the civilization of the Fifth Astral Era. And now the selfsame harbinger of that destruction is come once more. The histories vividly describe the fearsome nature of the elemental of nihility─or “the Wrath,†as she is sometimes called. It is writ that each time she keens, she sets off a hundred of her kind to doing the same. Ever more elementals shall join the keening, and so shall it continue until their chorus rends the land asunder. And then the heavens shall spill forth a deluge of tears, and the trees weep till they are hoarse of voice. Oha-Sok's awakening spells cataclysm for Eorzea...or at least, it already should have.
I do believe we have been given a reprieve. I have a strong suspicion that Oha-Sok stays her hand─she refrains from ushering in the end. Rather than setting about raising the chorus of her kindred's rage, she chose to follow you that she might bear witness to your every action. Owing to this, the elementals' rage was given a chance to subside. It could be for no other reason than to observe the deeds of men that she conceived of such a notion. Oha-Sok hasn't yet given up on mankind.
As for why only in the Twelveswood? There was 1.0 lore somewhere that the Forest was the Elemental's to have because it was Nophica's Gift to Eorzea, and they sought to protect it. Hence the name: Twelveswood. Whether that's true or not is neither here nor there. The Elementals are there and they plan to stay.
(08-16-2015, 11:38 PM)Yssen Wrote: The Shroud elementals are restrictive, oppressive, and probably not so much a the grand benevolent force that some NPCs think they are...
This could also be argued of most gods or deities in many real world religions/mythologies. Benevolence isn't always a necessity. Sometimes people worship out of fear. Othardians may worship their elementals or "nature spirits" out of respect or reverence or promised benevolence. We may never know. They may believe these elementals are the souls of their lost loved ones. My point is, whatever the Othardians believe them to be does not change what Oboro essentially described was an elemental above. Maybe nicer elementals who have not flooded the world, but elementals all the same.
(08-16-2015, 11:38 PM)Yssen Wrote: Fun side note: Elementals absolutely can die with in the boundaries of the Hedge. There are 3 murdered "Great Ones" seen when we are introduced to Kan-E-Senna in 1.0.
Yip, quest was called Disorganized Crime. I don't think I said that Elementals couldn't be killed within the Hedge, but if it came across that way, was not the intent. Elementals can be killed by conventional weapons anywhere. However, the Hedge is there to protect them and the Wood from outside evil. They are protected in the Wood, not invincible. Versus a random elemental appearing alone in the middle of Thanalan and the Ul'dahn mercenaries descend upon it and gank it.
Think we've veered a bit off course with this discussion though from the original topic. In any case, I hope Yssen's and my discussion helped you decide how close or far away from elemental involvement you wanted to make your Shrine Maiden! ^^;
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Yssen - 08-17-2015
True enough. This stuff is best discussed in more detail in a different thread. I'll probably make one here shortly.Â
Still hope to have been of service with the Shrine Maiden stuffus, though. Hope to run into it and junk.
RE: Doma lore and religion question - Aalriya - 08-19-2015
Thanks everyone! It helped a lot actually!! <3 Until Se comes out with direct lore on Au'Ra/Doman beliefs I am going to while not completely copy something along the lines of a Shinto/Kami belief system. Again very much thank you for everyone's input in the matter<3 If anyone wishes to see her bio: http://seira-miyara.tumblr.com/bio