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+--- Thread: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed (/showthread.php?tid=13117)
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - LiadansWhisper - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 02:47 AM)V Wrote: Frankly, new players are not the ones going to have the most issue with gating. The primary complaint about gating is that it keeps you from new things. To a new player, the entire game is new; they aren't gated from anything.
If you look at many of the gating critic threads, the primary players that are negatively effected are old players who left in the middle, not new players just coming in. These players left, in many cases, because they did not enjoy the content when it was current and are aggravated at having to play through it anyway and from behind.
The issue of new players becoming overwhelmed and discouraged with all of the content they have to get through to see endgame is not a small one, however. Â I have several friends who simply got burned out trying to get into Heavensward, because it seemed so very insurmountable to them. Â It would take "forever."
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - I'nhalki - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 02:47 AM)V Wrote: Frankly, new players are not the ones going to have the most issue with gating. The primary complaint about gating is that it keeps you from new things. To a new player, the entire game is new; they aren't gated from anything.
If you look at many of the gating critic threads, the primary players that are negatively effected are old players who left in the middle, not new players just coming in. These players left, in many cases, because they did not enjoy the content when it was current and are aggravated at having to play through it anyway and from behind.
I think you make a really good point. It made me think: the people who end up complaining are the ones who cancelled their subs before and will again, and may just be in the game to quickly max out content, not to truly enjoy it.Â
In this way, by deterring these people who add negativity and don't actually enjoy the game, gating really should be something the developers stick to.
Also, small sample size, but I played through much of the content my first time through with two other newbies who were strangers to me. We were all intimidated and sometimes would gripe about the content being so seemingly endless, but in the end we were so caught up in the story and had built some kind of camaraderie from the experience of being annoyed at the Whiskaet fetch quests and such. I think the slowness of the content actually creates friendship somehow in its slowness. I of course can't speak for every new person, but I kept seeing this phenomenon with other newbies again and again.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Lydia Lightfoot - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 02:54 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The issue of new players becoming overwhelmed and discouraged with all of the content they have to get through to see endgame is not a small one, however. Â I have several friends who simply got burned out trying to get into Heavensward, because it seemed so very insurmountable to them. Â It would take "forever."
Other than WoW recently having the option to instantly be level 90, every MMO requires a new player to level up through the content. It doesn't even really take that long. I'm a fairly casual leveler and V'alka is 47 after like... a month. Weigh in that I spend a lot of time doing RP, and I have three alts I'm also leveling, and... yeah.
And as a new player, I can safely say I don't really mind the gating at all. The only thing that irks me about it is things like... when I vendored some green-type items because they were untradeable and not for a class I planned to level, only to discover later that I threw away possible seals because I'd eventually unlock the ability to hand them over to my GC. It would've been nice of the game to give me a head's up - hey, btw, don't discard those, you can get seals for them later.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - V'aleera - 08-28-2015
Is that a gating problem or an mmo problem? Keep in mind that if they even had the option of not doing the MSQ at all, that would only slow their progress on their initial class, not help.
While issues for new players certainly exist in the game, it's my opinion that the majority of them exist before level 50.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Oli! - 08-28-2015
I think we're all missing a very important question, here:
Why does it have to be either gated or open? Why can't it be both? What is uncomfortable about having both options?
What do we lose from having content that isn't gated? Is anything stopping people from playing through the gates that they want to play through?
It seems at this point that we're just arguing for the sake of displaying opinions, and not because there's actually anything to argue over.
The option to play through the gates will still be there. The option to not play through the gates is being introduced for people that don't want to do it.
"Yeah but they should do it my way" isn't really a reason to argue anything, because it can be countered with the exact same argument from the other side; if you accept your own as reasonable, then you have to accept the other side's as being reasonable because they're the exact same argument; if you don't accept the other side, then you can't accept your own without being hypocritical or otherwise contradictory.
And that's why we're not getting anywhere. There's nothing to argue about. This entire thing is a Non-Argument.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - V'aleera - 08-28-2015
Gating is a tool. It belongs in some places and not in others.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-28-2015
Pretty much. At the end of the day "playing the game" though is still required to play the [new parts] of the game, whether that means someone going through the MSQ or just pounding FATEs, Levequests and repeated unlockable dungeon runs instead of fetchquests and [skippable] cutscenes.
I would imagine after a certain point, SE will probably open up much of the game or make all patches Y in X.Y "optional" content to unlock some new expansion X + 1.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - mongi291 - 08-28-2015
I'm fine with 4.0 not being gated as long as the story isn't watered down just to accommodate new players skipping 3.x. Honestly, I think the "summary" for the 3.0 story should be all the MSQ dungeons + the trials in order, with the most important cutscenes, and maybe the instanced MSQ battles, like the trial by combat.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Oli! - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 03:12 AM)V Wrote: Gating is a tool. It belongs in some places and not in others.
Yes, but the argument presented is "gates or no gates." The scenario we're discussing is one in which there are gates everywhere, but they are optional.
So where gates should and should not be is not exactly relevant to the current context, and is in fact an argument all on its own, because the gates are both everywhere and nowhere depending on individual preference.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Lydia Lightfoot - 08-28-2015
I think the real issue with Heavensward as an expansion isn't even the gating, it's that the expansion added nothing to the game for players who hadn't completed the previous MSQ (besides Au Ra, which if you aren't a roleplayer is a purely cosmetic choice).
The gating mostly matters when (as previously mentioned) you're a returning player who'd like to see the new content but you had left before some of the pre-HW MSQ released, or, if you're a bit casual and you spent $40 for the expansion and feel ripped off by not having anything new to do because you aren't already end-game.
I've actually advised friends of mine who are coming to the game to avoid buying the expansion until they hit the end, because unless they're willing to pay $40 to play an Au Ra it really doesn't add anything for them until then. Since they may very well decide in the meantime that the game just isn't gripping them or whatever (can't please everyone, different strokes for different folks, etc), it's far better for them to have to write off $20 than it is to write off $60.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - LiadansWhisper - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 03:03 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:(08-28-2015, 02:54 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The issue of new players becoming overwhelmed and discouraged with all of the content they have to get through to see endgame is not a small one, however. Â I have several friends who simply got burned out trying to get into Heavensward, because it seemed so very insurmountable to them. Â It would take "forever."
Other than WoW recently having the option to instantly be level 90, every MMO requires a new player to level up through the content. It doesn't even really take that long. I'm a fairly casual leveler and V'alka is 47 after like... a month. Weigh in that I spend a lot of time doing RP, and I have three alts I'm also leveling, and... yeah.
And as a new player, I can safely say I don't really mind the gating at all. The only thing that irks me about it is things like... when I vendored some green-type items because they were untradeable and not for a class I planned to level, only to discover later that I threw away possible seals because I'd eventually unlock the ability to hand them over to my GC. It would've been nice of the game to give me a head's up - hey, btw, don't discard those, you can get seals for them later.
Actually, until recently, WoW did the same thing. Â And there were discussions - both on the part of players and on the part of devs - about the concern that new players might get overwhelmed with how many levels they have to get through.
But, the thing is, you can get from 1-90 in a matter of hours with heirlooms, and in maybe one or two days at most, and 90-100 is like, 16 hours. Â It can take a new player weeks, if not longer, to level to 50 in FFXIV.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Lydia Lightfoot - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 03:59 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Actually, until recently, WoW did the same thing. Â And there were discussions - both on the part of players and on the part of devs - about the concern that new players might get overwhelmed with how many levels they have to get through.
But, the thing is, you can get from 1-90 in a matter of hours with heirlooms, and in maybe one or two days at most, and 90-100 is like, 16 hours. Â It can take a new player weeks, if not longer, to level to 50 in FFXIV.
I'm gonna go ahead and flat out call BS that it would take a brand new player, with no contacts to feed them equipment, push them through dungeons, etc, two days to level from 1 to 90, even if we assume by 2 days you mean 48 hours /played and not the even more absurd literal 2 real world days consisting of probably two 3-5 hour play sessions.
FFXIV on the other hand feeds you all the equipment you need as you level up through the MSQ, you don't really need anyone to feed you anything anyway. And, as I mentioned previously, yes, it's taken me about a month to get V'alka to 47, while working on 3 alts, and also roleplaying most nights when I've been on.Â
In an apples to apples comparison, brand new player in both games, would it take someone longer to get from 1-50 (with full pre-HQ MSQ completion) than it would take someone to get from 1-90 in WoW? I don't really care enough to speculate. But let's say for the sake of argument that it would.
Well, WoW's also a much older game with downright ugly graphics and uninspired audio. They've completely redone the original world of their game as of the Cataclysm expansion due to recognizing the growing obsolescence of that level range in their gameplay, and since then have enabled players to instantly become 90 for the same reason - because the content is downright ancient at this point.Â
For all practical intents and purposes, FFXIV is a year old. None of the pre-HW content could be described as ancient or irrelevant from that regard. Since we're comparing to WoW, it was released November 2004. Cataclysm was released December 2010... SIX YEARS later. So, six years later, the devs decided "there's enough stuff later on in the game that players will want to do that we should ease their journey to getting to that stuff, let's revamp the old world and make that a smoother and faster process". They didn't do it when they released Burning Crusade, their first expansion, in January 2007 - a little over two years later (still twice as long as FFXIV has existed for practical purposes).Â
tl;dr - it's pretty premature to consider the pre-HW content to be outdated and obsolete for players to play through. I'm a new player saying that. I don't feel burdened by this content at all.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - LiadansWhisper - 08-28-2015
(08-28-2015, 04:22 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: I'm gonna go ahead and flat out call BS that it would take a brand new player, with no contacts to feed them equipment, push them through dungeons, etc, two days to level from 1 to 90, even if we assume by 2 days you mean 48 hours /played and not the even more absurd literal 2 real world days consisting of probably two 3-5 hour play sessions.
Unless the player was a tank, it would actually be extremely inefficient to run dungeons to 90 (and as a tank, inefficient to run dungeons from 58-70, as there is a glut thanks to Death Knights). Â The fastest way to level right now is straight questing. Â You will outlevel each zone before you even get done with the quests - with or without heirlooms.
Unless you're on a PvP server, but one would hope that new players are not on PvP servers.
Edited to Add: And just to offer an example, I have a brand new player that I am mentoring. He is cross-server, so I cannot actually give him things like gold and gear. However, he told me that this is his first MMORPG, he's only ever played FPS games before this one.
He went from 1-43 in 6 hours of actual play. The next day, he was in his 70s. The last time I talked to him, he was level 85 and he hasn't even been playing WoW for a week, and is only able to play in the evenings and only until Midnight EST each night. They severely cut the amount of XP it takes to level from 1-90, and it was deliberately done.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Blue - 08-28-2015
The other day I put on a movie (2-3 movies, actually) and did nothing but quests for 5 hours straight, with a couple WC breaks in between. It got me from level 50 to 51 (though, mind you, it was level 33-44 quests). Five hours to go from the end of Brayflox Longstop to the footsteps of Garuda, and that was plenty to give me a migraine. No one should be forced to do this just for the sake of getting an RP character in the right city their character should ICly live at.
Gate MSQ if you want, and gate endgame. But leave areas and jobs out of that.
Also, it's not true that new players "don't care, because all the game is new to them anyway". My best connational friend was about to jump the boat from XI to XIV when he saw DRK and then changed his mind upon hearing of the 2.55 gate. It was too much work for him to get to the job he wanted to RP as. And frankly, I couldn't blame him, considering that in FFXI you can use a Great Sword from the very start.
RE: 4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed - Lydia Lightfoot - 08-28-2015
No idea how to multiquote. :/ Dividing lines it is!
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If they have in fact cut the exp in WoW that sharply, do again bear in mind we're talking about a nearly 11 year old game, not a 1 year old game... so we can't quite consider it apples to apples in terms of "get people hurried along to the most current content". For a great many players in a game so young as this, it's all current content.
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I agree completely that there's no reason to prevent access to expansion area zones merely for travel's sake, considering that the quests within those zones would obviously not be visible if you aren't up to that point in the MSQ anyway so how much spoilering could you really encounter.
I also agree completely that it was a fundamentally baffling design choice to make Dark Knight, Astrologian, and Machinist MSQ-gated. Returning to my earlier comment about there not being anything for pre-50 players in the expansion, this seems like they missed an obvious opportunity... can you imagine if they'd done:
New classes: Squire, Diviner, Tinkerer. These classes begin in Ishgard with a new level 1-15 MSQ (which then routes you to running a message through the three original cities as usual and into the joint MSQ line) and each have a guild site in Ishgard, and they basically get the skills you currently would get from the advanced jobs if you were down-leveled below 30 (the skill progression already exists, in other words). One additional zone adjacent to Ishgard which has a few level 1-15 quests and features the hunt log rank 1-2 for those three classes. Ishgard gets an airship terminal (I have no idea if it has one or not already) and some level 1-4 "intro" quests similar to the ones in the other three cities (and maybe even a level 15 dance quest). The classes get class quests every 5 levels up to 30 like other classes, and then you do a quest to unlock Dark Knight, Astrologian, and Machinist jobs as their advanced forms, and carry on with job quests every 5 levels.
Now everyone who can do airships can get to Ishgard (or they could get their the old fashioned way if they want). Everyone who wants to check out the new classes could do so. None of it's gated to the MSQ. However, other than the class quests, "intro" quests, and the one new newbie zone, there just wouldn't be any new quests around Ishgard and the adjacent zones until you progress through the MSQ.
This would solve a lot of gripes.