(01-10-2016, 09:53 PM)Oli! Wrote: I think it's about time we started getting specific examples if we're actually going to take a closer look at what the OP raises.

(01-11-2016, 02:30 AM)Leggerless Wrote:

(01-10-2016, 09:53 PM)Oli! Wrote: I think it's about time we started getting specific examples if we're actually going to take a closer look at what the OP raises.

Specific examples as in linkable examples?

Nevertheless, we're probably going to see a few more replies responding to the sensationalist material that is now OP's post before anything tangible shows up.

For now, enjoy the thread and grab some popcorn. It'll be a long night for this one.

P.S. @Aaron: RPC quality is down. Less than 20 chararcters with spaces.

(01-11-2016, 01:06 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:

(01-10-2016, 11:59 PM)Yssen Wrote:

(01-10-2016, 09:16 PM)V Wrote:

(01-10-2016, 07:01 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: We've certainly had issues on a few particular topics, usually in regards to roleplaying as mages with soulstones, but I've yet to see anyone going "you're RP is invalid and/or wrong" due to it. The common answer I have seen is "that RP is not for me."

Disagree. In almost every single thread about contentious rp subjects there is a small chorus of people asserting that the roleplay being discussed is wrong, often going as far as ignoring established lore to do it. Expressions of tolerance for other people roleplaying "wrong" are typically secondary to informing people their RP is "wrong".

Also, there isn't a single person on this site I'd consider a "leader". "Loud" would be more accurate.

^ This. All of this.

One can just go over every single post about WHM and DRG to see some of what I believe the OP is trying to point out, to point out just a couple dozen specific examples. Usually it is from the same people saying the same stuff every single time. Each of these posts are, in short, echo chambers of loudly shouted personal preference coupled with the threat of "conform this or we will exclude you." It should be pointed out that this is the exact opposite of what what people are saying they prefer to see in this very thread. This is part of the problem, no one willing to say/recognize that such are behaviors that are a problem.

For some, actual helpfulness and reasonable discussion fall absolutely fall by the wayside in favor of loud shouting of the same opinions, outright insults, and promises censure for refusal to conform. This is another point Momo brings up, and it is fairly valid. So is pointing out that this is not the way things were in the past. Yes, there were disagreements and arguments. There was not a whole sale attitude of "we will exclude you if you do not conform." In fact, as others have pointed out, that sort of thing was actively discouraged. It is absolutely true that things just change, but that does not mean that things change for the better. In my opinion, they have not. We seem to have gone from a community of creatives discussing and offering input on one another's ideas to an echo chamber of loudly shouting assholes saying "conform to what we or we just won't include you." While this is not true of everyone on this forum, it is true that one walks away with that impression with a larger number of the posts here. This is not a positive change, but the OP brings up the point that there can be reflection on where this place has been and where we wish it to go. What has changed once, can change again.

For all of the commentary on the structure of the original post, we all do seem to be able to get was Momo was going for, and we should reflect on what was said. While there are bits and bobs of what was said that I do not necessarily agree with, all of it is worth thinking about. More than a little of it is true, even if accepting that is a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

The question then becomes what are you supposed to do when people say "Does this character concept work?" are you... not supposed to answer? I always see a bunch of people come in and go "You can play whatever you want =D" but that isn't helpful - obviously the person asked for imput if they wanted to play whatever they wanted they wouldn't have made the thread (Unless they were looking for an echo chamber of how great their character is, but that's another subject). I know in the past I've offered advice about character concepts and said I didn't personally jive with some of them, but always added "But you can play whatever you want" at the end so they know it's just my opinion. Should I not offer that kind of advice? Is that seen as pushing my own agenda?

(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: We need to remember that we are all RPing to have fun. To take our creations and trot them around in the game, and interact with other people doing the same. We all want a positive experience as a result of the time and effort we put into RP, and with that in mind we need to remember that that is all someone else we come across is looking for too. You get exactly what you put out into the world, and we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: My brain boggles at the idea that we now actively warn people "but most won't play with you if you do that" when it comes to touchy subject x,y, or z. That very warning, and the acceptance of that very attitude isn't constructive, it is stifling.

(01-11-2016, 03:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: It is not out of meanness or a desire to hurt anyone that people who enjoy lore offer that lore to players asking questions about concepts or theories they have.

(01-11-2016, 03:11 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(01-11-2016, 02:58 AM)Yssen Wrote: We need to remember that we are all RPing to have fun. To take our creations and trot them around in the game, and interact with other people doing the same. We all want a positive experience as a result of the time and effort we put into RP, and with that in mind we need to remember that that is all someone else we come across is looking for too. You get exactly what you put out into the world, and we should treat others as we would want them to treat us.

I think it's important to remember that what is fun for you isn't necessarily fun for everyone else.  And since we, individually, don't have any way of knowing what is "fun" for another person, we tend to answer from the perspective of what we consider to be fun.

I do not personally consider ignoring lore to be "fun."  Lore is an important part of what I enjoy about a setting.  A lack of lore actually turns me off of a setting, and makes it much harder for me to RP within such a setting.  Ignoring lore when it's there just seems silly - why even play if you don't want to play in the world that you're playing in?

What's more, how is it a "kindness" to fail to let someone know, "You can play whatever you want, but this, this, and this are going to cause you problems"?  If I know that the water is blistering hot and is going to burn you, and you ask me, "Hey, is the water hot," and I fail to tell you for fear of hurting your feelings, is that really kindness?

Because it's not in my book.  That, right there, is cruel.  Throwing someone into a shark tank without telling them ahead of time, "Hey, there are sharks in there" when they think it's empty of anything but water is pretty freaking cruel in my book.  (Most especially if they asked me ahead of time, "Are there sharks in that tank?")

I have yet to see anyone post anything abusive or demeaning towards anyone showing up with really off-the-wall concepts or ideas, even when those concepts are breaking the in-game lore three ways from Sunday.  If anything, people almost trip over themselves to try to be as kind as possible when they point out to Suzy that, well, that's an interesting idea, but you should be aware that x, y, and z are established in the lore, and that she might want to take that into account because it will cause problems for her down the road.

Again, knowing that a blind person is about to step out on a busy interstate and failing to warn them of what they are doing is not kindness.  At all.

It is not out of meanness or a desire to hurt anyone that people who enjoy lore offer that lore to players asking questions about concepts or theories they have.  It is out of kindness.  I would not want to throw myself into RP, thinking I had a good grasp of what I was playing, only to find out after the fact that I was making a fool of myself and people were laughing at me behind my back.  And worse, that people knew that what I was preparing to do would make a fool of me, but they never said anything because they thought it might hurt my feelings.  Well, my feelings certainly are hurt now!  It is out of that specific worry that I let people know when they're running roughshod over the lore - because I would never, ever want someone to be in that situation because it fucking sucks.

If someone asks a question, I'm going to respond sincerely because I care more about people rolling into RP and feeling like a fool later than I care about people on the internet thinking I'm just a huge mean person because I told someone, "Hey, that's not how it works exactly, but here are some ways you can play with that."

(01-11-2016, 04:16 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Certain things in lore that just outright tell people "Nah, you can't do that."

(01-11-2016, 04:10 AM)Valeera Wrote: Just make sure that when you offer questioning players the lore that you are offering them the lore; not just the lore you enjoy.

(01-11-2016, 04:52 AM)Valeera Wrote: An objective examination of the lore we have been given reveals, frankly, very, very few instances of "<thing> can not be done; not by anyone by any means ever." When it comes to shutting doors on (let's call them "creative") ideas, the biases of the community factor in significantly more than any established lore.

My favorite example: in some thread a while back (I don't remember which specific one) someone brought up the existence of vampires in Eorzea. This was followed by citations of various item descriptions that alluded to numerous common vampire myths (turning into bats, drinking blood etc.) that would be known to Eorzeans. Posters elected to completely ignore all the information (going as far as to say none of it was "real" lore) presented in order to maintain their position that vampires could not possibly exist in Eorzea.

(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: I said "treat others as you wish to be treated."

...

Less trouble exists when we do this. Less trouble exists when we treat others as we wish to be treated.

(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: Sidenote - It is all well and good to say we have not seen people be abusive or demeaning toward concepts, but this is false. There are a dozen or so locked threads that were locked because people got abusive and demeaning toward touchy concepts/subjects. They are there, monuments to how fervently awful some of us can be. Monuments to a few other issues too, but this isn't the time and place for that. Yet. Saying that it did not happen doesn't make it go away. Our solution should be to stare at it in all it's terrible, horrific glory and in doing so find resolve that we can do better than that. We can change the equation and see that it does not happen again.

(01-11-2016, 05:00 AM)Oli! Wrote:

(01-11-2016, 04:42 AM)Yssen Wrote: I said "treat others as you wish to be treated."

...

Less trouble exists when we do this. Less trouble exists when we treat others as we wish to be treated.

Your post leaves out the idea that by questioning concepts in certain ways, people are in fact treating people the way that they would like to be treated.

I for one would be much more comfortable with having my concepts questioned and prodded for faults before I put them out for people to look at, only to experience rejection and realize I've been using the source material poorly.