(07-28-2016, 06:18 AM)Valence Wrote: On conjurers training enough to become Hearers, this seems to hint pretty strongly in favor of it I believe.

Quote:I believe when you are a Hearer and start telling people shit because you can, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that for some reason, people, especially other Hearers and padjals, would never notice that weird Hearer saying all sorts of weird biased stuff all around eventually. That's really not putting much weight on their actual cunning and wisdom.

Quote:Thus, you have to be cautious of what you say and how obvious it would be for others, especially your peers, to see that you are full of shit. It is true that acting often on your own without a padjal or two to check on your back at every second sure helps, but still... Also, nothing says that because we see a Hearer in Quarrymill distributing dubious leves alone, that Hearers ALWAYS act alone. I'm sure they talk to each other like anybody else, but heh, who knows, I don't recall any precise lorebit telling that they always act alone or in groups.

(07-28-2016, 03:29 PM)Valence Wrote: Allag at least was mostly a Hyur thing and covered most of the planet or so. Hyurs just happened to disappear in the following eras to reappear in the Sixth.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:Why are you assuming that the corrupt Hearer in question wouldn't be cunning about it? I wasn't saying they wouldn't have to be cunning, I was merely pointing out that the odds are stacked in favor of the biased Hearer getting away with it - note that the Hearer in Quarrymill is displaying a widely-held prejudice, and this probably helps her get away with what she's doing.

LiadansWhispers Wrote:Edited to add: Re: Corrupt Hearers: If everyone around you is super racist, or has reasons to hate whatever nationality you are (in the case of the Ala Mhigans, who are hated because of the Autumn War), and you're lying about the Elementals agreeing with said racism/hatred, then most likely, the racist people around you are going to go along with it. Because it fits their view of the world.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:I can't recall a single instance of seeing more than one Hearer outside of the Stillglade Fane itself. Can anyone else? I could be wrong, but every instance of a Hearer appearing that I can recall, they've been by themselves with a contingent of other Conjurers/Wood Wailers. This is probably due to the relative rarity of Hearers - think of how massive the Wood is, and how few, in comparison, Hearers there are. Even counting in the Padjal, they're all likely stretched rather thin.[/font][/color]

Quote:Are we even sure the Allag were actually Hyur? I mean, I know they look like Hyur, but so do Pureblood Garleans...and they're not Hyur.

Quote:In any case yeah, just to say that for all those point I guess we can't have a true answer... At least until we get our hands on their lorebook they spoke about :p

(07-29-2016, 07:00 AM)Charity322 Wrote: In one of the later Conjury quests they send three Hearers together to cleanse a major source of corruption. It's the one where Sylphie gets her knickers in a knot about it and runs off to stop them.

They're the three Hearers who taught you the basics of Earth, Wind and Water in the earlier quests. Nolanel, Wulfiue and Joacin.

(07-29-2016, 03:34 AM)Valence Wrote: Sure, it could be ambiguous. I still would love to have Sounssy's opinion on the matter and what they wrote though. There might be more behind those two quotes.

Quote:I'm assuming nothing. I actually said that kind of Hearer was going to be crafty about it if they wanted to get away with it... Odds stacked in their favor or not. You seem only to base yourself on the widespread prejudices around them in the commonfolk, especially geared toward the Autumn Wars, but the people they would have to convinced or be cautious of is not the commonfolk that will just follow whatever they say out of reverence.

It's the damn Padjals. As I said, it would be a bit disingenuous to think that padjals can't see through a crooked Hearer, especially after some time of abuses and exploits.

Quote:Again, padjals. I'm not saying padjals don't necessarily have prejudices. I'm saying they would probably get mad at anyone even trying to lie their way out of what they Hear about the Elementals will.

LiadansWhisper Wrote:Well, I think that's a logical fallacy to assume that the few instances of Hearers we see ingame (that's what? One? Two of them?) necessarily equates to all of them always acting alone and being alone. That was my point.

Quote:I don't see why like any other entity holding any power they would not you know, speak to each other, debate and discuss their plans, and especially discuss about what they Heared to compare their interpretations and all.

(07-30-2016, 06:33 AM)Charity322 Wrote: Would the elementals tattle on a corrupt Hearer? They must know if what they said is being lied about and they can communicate with the Padjals. But then I guess I'm presuming that Hearing is similar to the Echo and allows them to read each other's minds.

(07-30-2016, 01:30 PM)Kilieit Wrote: I got no sources on any of what I'm about to say, I'm afraid, though I'm sure you could find things to support parts of it from the CNJ chain and that one 3.0 quest that heavily involves the Elementals. Just my instincts from what I've seen in the game of the Elementals and my 10 years of experience RPing druids and shaman in WoW. >< Sorry.

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SpeculationThe Elementals might understand the concept of deception, but I doubt they'd view it as Always Wrong or anything.

They wouldn't understand what words a mortal was saying while they were lying to another mortal, or even probably most of the implications about said lie. They would understand the deceptive intent in the mortal's heart. They might reject them as a result. They might not.

If the mortal was trying to be deceptive towards an Elemental, they'd be ratted out in a second.

It doesn't seem possible to... explain things to Elementals, I guess? They perceive your existence by looking directly at your aether and what it's doing, how it's resonating, what aether you're similar or different from. I can only assume that things like thoughts and emotions represent fluctuations in aether that an Elemental could read. That's probably how they judge whether they like you or not.

(If there's malice in your heart, they probably don't. If they DID reject the Ala Mhigan refugees - I'm not saying they did, I'm saying if they did - then this is probably why; how is an Elemental supposed to tell the difference between malice towards the forest, and malice towards the Garleans? All they see is "aggression towards the environment". It's not possible to differentiate if that "environment" is the physical environment of the Twelveswood, or the bad political environment that the Garleans created.)

(What's my reasoning for this? Well, we know Elementals can't really differentiate between different individuals with similar aether. And they say woodsin is accumulated even living outside of the Twelveswood. It's about what's in your heart, not the actual effects of what you do - if you live with disregard for the environment, then the elementals are going to perceive that. You know what you did, sort of thing. If you live "the Twelveswood way" but in Thanalan or Vylbrand, then you probably won't have accumulated much woodsin by the time you return... but if you live the Thanalan way in Thanalan, then return to the Twelveswood, you probably want a cleansing ritual [which demonstrates regret and respect] on your return.)

So uh, which is to say... it's not like the Elementals would hear you say "the Elementals want this" and go "no, that's not true" and roflstomp you. The Elementals would perceive your intentions. So if your intention was to protect the forest, they'd probably be okay, even if the thing you were saying as a result was "these refugees are evil and aren't allowed here". If your intention was to further your personal agenda, it'd depend on other factors as to what their reaction would be. And if your intention was to bring harm to the forest, even if your words or actions seemed otherwise to a mortal... the Elementals would see through you in an instant.

They're probably not so keen on "if I do X, it'll hurt the forest temporarily, but in the long run it'll bring about Y" either. All they'll perceive is your lack of inhibition towards hurting the forest.

Where do the gangs like the Coeurlclaws fit into this? Well, first of all, most of them have popped up after the Calamity, when the Elementals are weakened anyway. Greenwrath is nowhere near as common or deadly as it used to be - as one NPC put it, "it's Gridania's turn to protect the forest", after years of the forest protecting Gridania. (Trying to invade the Twelveswood was like trying to invade Russia in the winter, but with greenwrath instead of snowstorms.)

Second of all... I mean, we talked before about how the Coeurlclaws set aside their scraps with the Redbellies and potentially with the loosely-Gridania-aligned Buscarron in order to protect the forest, right? Well, there you go. Yes, they poach. But that's a mortal law, enforced by Gridania, with - yes - the intention of protecting the forest. As a general rule, it probably works okay; most people, most of the time, poach because they don't care about the forest, and allowing them to do so would invoke greenwrath like anything else. If they have pure intentions, most of the time, they'll apply for a hunting license and process the skins through the Leatherworkers' Guild, all on the up-and-up.

You think Elementals directly differentiate between licensed hunters and illegal poachers?

No, they don't.

Elementals don't care about laws. At all. What they care about is: who are you, and why are you doing what you are doing, right now? And I'm wondering if, by a combination of the weakening of the Elementals in general and the poachers not actually intending to harm the Twelveswood but instead to participate in its ecosystem, it's no longer enough to prompt greenwrath?

Non-Spoken predators hunt their prey in the Twelveswood without invoking greenwrath every time. Because their intention isn't to hurt the wood. It's to play their role within it. They hunt and kill and eat and breed and die. The Elementals don't seem to have an issue with this. Maybe the Coeurlclaws and company are slipping in under the wire, as it were, with similar intentions. They just want to live free in the wood and survive. Grow their pack, have their babies, pass along their home to their offspring. They're not poaching for profit or to take things away from the wood and send them somewhere else. They want the wood to be okay. Because it's their home!

Even if Gridania's laws are not capable of seeing the difference, the Elementals would be able to, especially when weakened and with more important things to expend their energy on rejecting.

You really have to do away with the notion that specific words, actions, and reasons are important. It's all about emotions to an Elemental.

(07-30-2016, 04:54 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Please bear in mind that it's stated in multiple quests that Elementals simply cannot understand the speech of mortals anymore than mortals can understand the speech of Elementals. Hearers (and, by extension, Padjal) bridge this gap because they are capable of communicating with the Elementals, while naturally being able to understand and communicate with other mortals as well. They're the translators.

The Elementals have also been shown to lack care for the intent of mortals who draw their interest or provoke their anger. Again, they are still wholly unable to communicate with a regular person with anything other than violent response. We are two sides speaking entirely different langauges, in a situation where even body language doesn't translate.

It doesn't matter if your intentions are good. You could have the best intentions in the world, but if you do something the Elementals aren't okay with, they're still going to try to kill you...and everyone around you, probably.

Quote:It doesn’t seem possible to… explain things to Elementals, I guess? They perceive your existence by looking directly at your aether and what it’s doing, how it’s resonating, what aether you’re similar or different from.

Quote:They’re probably not so keen on “if I do X, it’ll hurt the forest temporarily, but in the long run it’ll bring about Y” either. All they’ll perceive is your lack of inhibition towards hurting the forest.

Quote:We know Elementals can’t really differentiate between different individuals with similar aether.