Hydaelyn Role-Players
If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Final Fantasy 14 (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=41)
+--- Forum: FFXIV Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. (/showthread.php?tid=16955)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Gegenji - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 09:48 AM)Kage Wrote: It's just, in the end I want people to put their best foot forward and run at their potential and efficiency. Even while lazy DPSing, I'm still watching how fast I kill things (or not) and do my best. Drives me insane when people talk about netflix and chilling wile they just see about "but did you wipe?"

/triggered by just typing "but did you wipe?"

To be fair, I've slogged my way through several groups that had people that rubbed me the wrong way in some shape or form. DPSing their own targets, running ahead or lagging far behind, not shutting up (I had a "delightful" VArk with a pair of players that spouted inane chatter about baby daddies and whatnot THE ENTIRE WAY THROUGH), dying to mechanics. Mostly just because I find myself thinking that clearing out this run, as annoying as the other players may be, is still better than having to re-queue and do all that work all over again.

Unless it's blatantly obvious we're not going to progress - such as in some Trials. Then I still give it a few tried before ducking out.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Sounsyy - 08-16-2016

(08-15-2016, 04:56 PM)Faye Wrote: Imo, cleric stance and attack skills were put in the game largely for solo-leveling (and if you have solo-leveled, say, a WHM, you know exactly how much damage these skills put out for you: not very). Sure, the game teaches you how to use them in instances and parties, because that's a thing you can do and is super helpful if you're able.

I only point out this quote because apparently it's a highly prevalent excuse in the community, that Healers have access to DPS abilities only for the sake of solo content just like all DPS classes have defensive abilities that allow them to solo without getting eaten horribly. So I threw together a little something a while back.

Over 1/3rd of every healer’s action list is made up of abilities that deal or affect damage. This is more offensive abilities than most tanks have defensive abilities. And a far greater number than the minimal “solo abilities” afforded DPS classes. See below:

Healer Offensive Abilities

WHM: 10/28 (35%)
SCH: 11/28 (39%)
AST: 9/28 (32%)

DPS Defensive Abilities

MNK: 4/28 (14%)
DRG: 2/28 (7%)
NIN: 3/28 (10%)
BRD: 3/28 (10%)
MCH: 1/28 (3%)
BLM: 4/28 (14%)
SMN: 6/28 (21%)

This is what “solo capabilities” looks like. 1-4 abilities across the board. SMN being the obvious exception due to its affiliation with SCH. That said, they are still not a viable healer class just because they have more defensive abilities, unlike SCH they do not have access to Cleric Stance to modify their Mind stat.

Tank Defensive Cooldowns

WAR: 7/28 (25%)
DRK: 7/28 (25%)
PLD: 11/28 (39%)

With the exception of PLD, tanks have fewer defensive cooldowns than all healers have offensive abilities. Which brings me back to my qualm with the discussion at hand. There is no end to the (justified) complaints against tanks not using defensive cooldowns in DF, even though they are realistically a non-essential part of tanking lower tier content. We've all seen the "minimal effort" tank who facerolls groups and never once touches a defensive cooldown.

Please, stop perpetuating the solo excuse. If SE intended Cleric Stance only for solo/raid use, they wouldn't have included these lines in the Hall of the Novice for healers, which is specifically for learning low-level group play:

Master of Magicks Wrote:When you've healed all there is to heal, there may be time to weave in some offensive magicks. But keep an eye on your companion! You should not be blasting if someone is bleeding!
Master of Magicks Wrote:Well done! A focused healer is a boon to any party! Even when it's safe to attack, always keep one eye on your allies' health!

And I think the Master of Magicks sums up when Healer should DPS perfectly! When it's safe, and when you're able to. If you're not comfortable, or the fight is rough, or tank is not using cooldowns, whatever- don't do it! It's that simple. But the overwhelming sentiment I've read in this thread is that Healers are going to give you one or the other. If someone asks me to DPS, I'm going to dps and not heal and its your fault if you die! Or, yeah, I'm a healer and I heal to heal so not touching it ever. But that's not how Cleric Stance or "stance dancing" is supposed to work. It shouldn't be 100% on or 100% off. Wax on and wax off as appropriate.


If you're uncomfortable stance-dancing, you don't have to do it! BUT, you should be practicing it so you are comfortable with it! (You're never going to get comfortable with it if you never use it!) This is what the leveling dungeons are for, learning your class. Take your healer to some FATE parties and practice Cleric Stance dancing there in a relatively safe and anonymous environment.

But I've been around the Vent thread long enough to see many many people, some of them people in this very thread, complain about people who don't know their jobs by Lv60 and are doing Expert Roulette or doing Trials. In this game, knowing how to deal damage alongside maintaining your party is a big part of knowing how to play your job (over 1/3 of your job actually) and it should be something you should be comfortable doing by level 60. A BRD has to be comfortable with using their songs in combat as much as they're comfortable with Wanderer's Minuet. It takes practice and I know BRDs out there who'd rather just straight DPS, but that's not all their job is.



(08-16-2016, 03:49 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Realistically, we're talking about dungeon pugs. You're honestly lucky if you get three other people who aren't picking their collective noses and attempting to throw themselves off the side of any unguarded cliffs. Most people are just trying to get through the dungeon without killing each other. Acting like everyone has to be playing at Extreme Primal level is just silly.

Okay, but if you're the Healer in a DF dungeon and you're just spamming Cure or Adlo or Regen you're also one of those three nose-pickers? Yes, you can absolutely have a random DF experience where everyone is minimal efforting- the tank isn't using defensive cooldowns, the DPS are doing something resembling a rotation and not using damage buffs, and the healer is just sitting around waiting for their tank to dip to 90% before queuing up another Cure.

But it honestly doesn't have to be that way. The "It's just roulette, not endgame" excuse to be low effort really grates at me. Just because everyone else in the party might be bad or lazy, doesn't mean that you have to be also. Does that mean go off on everyone else verbally? NO. Does that mean treat the other people disrespectfully? NO. But if you know how to do something properly, it should be done in all public content, no matter how easy.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Kage - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 10:17 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 09:48 AM)Kage Wrote: It's just, in the end I want people to put their best foot forward and run at their potential and efficiency. Even while lazy DPSing, I'm still watching how fast I kill things (or not) and do my best. Drives me insane when people talk about netflix and chilling wile they just see about "but did you wipe?"

/triggered by just typing "but did you wipe?"

To be fair, I've slogged my way through several groups that had people that rubbed me the wrong way in some shape or form. DPSing their own targets, running ahead or lagging far behind, not shutting up (I had a "delightful" VArk with a pair of players that spouted inane chatter about baby daddies and whatnot THE ENTIRE WAY THROUGH), dying to mechanics. Mostly just because I find myself thinking that clearing out this run, as annoying as the other players may be, is still better than having to re-queue and do all that work all over again.

Unless it's blatantly obvious we're not going to progress - such as in some Trials. Then I still give it a few tried before ducking out.
It also just really depends on how burnt out I am and whether or not I have the patience. I'll stay in Nidhogg normal until any of these things make themselves apparent: a) people are too slow and are not learning mechanics b) it's obvious the DPS is lacking c) no one is filling this and we are better off vote abandoning.

I typically give some tips/pointers and I might gripe somewhere in a different LS, tumblr or other out of game chat. I strive to not actually berate anyone. We all make some mistakes and I've made them a few times (like some A7 tanking oops). It hurts when people become dicks about it and that's the type of thing I strive not to do.

People have different levels of comfort for stance dancing. For me I start to be a lot more cautious when I see tank hp dip to 50% and stance dance less because I think they're not utilizing their CDs as much as I would as a tank. What I've done as a WHM is Stoneskin, regen once the mobs are green, Cleric, swift holy about 2-3 times and then get back to healing. If only one pack was pulled it means most of the mobs are dead or the dps is crap or... the tank has an i44 sword and the mobs were on my at the time I holy'd 1-2x. >.>;

I'm much more comfortable in stance dancing as a SCH than I am a WHM but I am pretty antsy stance dancing as AST. I haven't found my comfort zone with nocturnal quite yet so i typically stance dance more in diurnal but not nearly enough as I would with the others. I'm not sure if it's how AST plays or just that I only spent 30 levels in AST...

(Hell I remember people talking about stance dancing in the vault and my thoughts were oh god yiiikes)

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Valence - 08-16-2016

Yeah what Sounssy said.

For people not comfortable with it, if you have a bit of a competitive mind like I do (well I'm not really competitive actually, I don't like the pressure, but I like knowing I'm performing well more exactly), pop up a parser and start giving yourself little challenges. Try to up your DPS every time. Try to beat that SCH in a trial. Whatever.

And yeah, surprisingly, it feels kinda satisfying when you suddenly notice that you deal more damage than a quarter of the party DPS roles in a 24 men raid as a... WhM. It's really nice to be happy about your own performance I find (and suddenly you start to understand how some players can be abyssmal bad at the game).

But maybe it's just me.

At first I hated cleric. It feels clunky and unsafe. After so many runs it just feels more or less natural now. Do mistakes still happen, and I'm suddenly healing in cleric? Yeah, it happened to me yersterday because one of the problems in that game is that some skills or buttons are super unresponsive, and cleric can be at times. It's pretty obvious when it does, it can make you sweat a bit, it makes you swear, but then... You shrug it off and carry on.

Every class makes mistakes at times, and sometimes it can lead to a wipe. I find people are cool with it when it's obvious you stumbled on the 1/1000 times it happens to you. Just apologize and carry on really.

Edit: I noticed that the tone you take can even change everything. Sometimes a stupid wipe due to cleric actually makes people laugh. Like once I rushed to gorilla/bomb duty in A5 and tossed the bomb in the wrong direction.... directly on top of the party. People were like "lol wtf".

I notice that I tend at times for example, after a panic moment when I try to reach the Benediction button, that I reach the Raise button party chat macro just next to it. It leads to awkward moments like trying to raise someone not dead, or the boss. I was thinking to swap its position until I noticed that people will often giggle at it, so I decided to keep it there.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - LiadansWhisper - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Okay, but if you're the Healer in a DF dungeon and you're just spamming Cure or Adlo or Regen you're also one of those three nose-pickers? Yes, you can absolutely have a random DF experience where everyone is minimal efforting- the tank isn't using defensive cooldowns, the DPS are doing something resembling a rotation and not using damage buffs, and the healer is just sitting around waiting for their tank to dip to 90% before queuing up another Cure.

But it honestly doesn't have to be that way. The "It's just roulette, not endgame" excuse to be low effort really grates at me. Just because everyone else in the party might be bad or lazy, doesn't mean that you have to be also. Does that mean go off on everyone else verbally? NO. Does that mean treat the other people disrespectfully? NO. But if you know how to do something properly, it should be done in all public content, no matter how easy.

If I expected everyone to play at Endgame level in dungeons - Experts or no - I would lose my mind and be so frustrated all the time. It's not going to happen, and I'm not going to stress myself out by expecting it.

If there was a Mythic+ analogue in FF (Mythic+ is a dungeon system in WoW that requires you to pre-form your parties, and is much, much harder - and scales! - than regular queue-able dungeons), then I could see what you're saying. But everyone is able to queue into Experts. You always end up with a mixed bag. Why stress yourself out expecting everyone to play up to your standards when you're pugging?

If you want that, form your own parties ahead of time so you're not pugging.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Aaron - 08-16-2016

IMO,

It's ok to half ass a Expert as long as you do enough to ensure you're going at a reasonable pace. Sometimes you just don't have it in you to go above and beyond, you might be sick, you might be a bit moody, you might he multitasking irl things too. But nobody can say you died and didn't at the least, keep things going. It's like you are at work, and you have a text you've been waiting to answer as soon as work slows, so you answer it instead of doing miscellaneous stuff.

It's also ok, to get irritated if you're in an Expert and you see others not doing as much as you, I get it, I've felt the same way at times. It's like you're at work and that one coworker is on his phone casually when things are slow while you're wiping off counters and sweeping.

I've been on both sides, I've also bitched about both sides, there's really nothing solidly built to justify either option. So long as you clear in a decent time,and nobody dies. Great, you've got your expert done. If you had EVERYBODY doing their best and cleared? Great, you had a perfect party.

Now, I'd rather have either of the above two instances happen over being apart of an completely incompetent party where literally everyone is fucking up.

There's a difference between slacking off on your job duty, and "Oh lol sorry I was watching E3" 

Preferences shouldn't be put over actually accomplishing the job when it comes to things like clearing an Expert. This isn't a large corporation where everything has to be to the letter, it's a casual expert roulette.

I'm not saying preference is wrong, but I do think people could lower their expectations if anything to avoid getting worked up TOO much. Bitching about stuff in itself is fun sometimes, however it shouldn't be associated with "everything needs to change and not just that one encounter I had."

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Sounsyy - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 12:20 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 10:39 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Okay, but if you're the Healer in a DF dungeon and you're just spamming Cure or Adlo or Regen you're also one of those three nose-pickers? Yes, you can absolutely have a random DF experience where everyone is minimal efforting- the tank isn't using defensive cooldowns, the DPS are doing something resembling a rotation and not using damage buffs, and the healer is just sitting around waiting for their tank to dip to 90% before queuing up another Cure.

But it honestly doesn't have to be that way. The "It's just roulette, not endgame" excuse to be low effort really grates at me. Just because everyone else in the party might be bad or lazy, doesn't mean that you have to be also. Does that mean go off on everyone else verbally? NO. Does that mean treat the other people disrespectfully? NO. But if you know how to do something properly, it should be done in all public content, no matter how easy.

If I expected everyone to play at Endgame level in dungeons - Experts or no - I would lose my mind and be so frustrated all the time. It's not going to happen, and I'm not going to stress myself out by expecting it.

Why stress yourself out expecting everyone to play up to your standards when you're pugging?

Quite literally said nothing about expecting others to play up to your standards. I only said that if you have the know-how, don't be part of the problem by also playing low-effort, even if everyone else in your PUG is.

But now that you mention it, I find it hilarious that the FFXIV community at large considers using 1/3 of your skillset as "Endgame-level" exclusive LOL. Like, WHMs or SCHs haven't had almost all of their DPS abilities by the early lv30s or 40s. Like only endgame level Tanks need to use cooldowns because there are no tank busters in Roulette dungeons?

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Caspar - 08-16-2016

If simply using all the abilities taught was Endgame Level, there would be a lot more Savage clears. If anything understanding what your abilities do is the bare minimum. I can't get past the sticking point for me: In a normal dungeon, where the strain on a healer is nil, what are you doing in the time you are not healing? If you're taking a break, when are Tanks and DPS offered that luxury? And if you are DPSing, could it be difficult to slip Cleric stance in and just practice it from time to time?
I'm not going to be upset if the healer doesn't dps. I simply feel there is no good reason for them not to.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - LiadansWhisper - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 12:57 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Quite literally said nothing about expecting others to play up to your standards. I only said that if you have the know-how, don't be part of the problem by also playing low-effort, even if everyone else in your PUG is.

But now that you mention it, I find it hilarious that the FFXIV community at large considers using 1/3 of your skillset as "Endgame-level" exclusive LOL. Like, WHMs or SCHs haven't had almost all of their DPS abilities by the early lv30s or 40s. Like only endgame level Tanks need to use cooldowns because there are no tank busters in Roulette dungeons?

You do realize that's an absolutely silly comparison, right? You're comparing something that is completely within the domain of the role - tanking CDs being used by a Tank who is there to tank - to something that is outside of a stated role - damage output on the part of a Healer who is there to heal.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - LiadansWhisper - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 01:10 PM)Caspar Wrote: If simply using all the abilities taught was Endgame Level, there would be a lot more Savage clears. If anything understanding what your abilities do is the bare minimum. I can't get past the sticking point for me: In a normal dungeon, where the strain on a healer is nil, what are you doing in the time you are not healing? If you're taking a break, when are Tanks and DPS offered that luxury? And if you are DPSing, could it be difficult to slip Cleric stance in and just practice it from time to time?

I've done a lot of Experts where the strain was pretty high. Generally speaking because of tanks overpulling and DPS taking avoidable damage. Particularly with certain classes that are fine as long as their CDs hold, but then become mana sponges the moment their last CD runs out. I have had groups where I nearly went OOM because I had to spam Cure II, and I could not stop because the tank would quite literally drop between one cast and the next if I even so much as paused (overpulling DK tanks make me rage). Most likely part of the problem was slow DPS, but all I can tell you for sure is that the tank's health was a nightmare. I don't break TOS rules to use parsers as I have an aversion to being banned, so I'm in the dark as to the DPS in my dungeons.

I've done a lot of other Experts where there was almost no tank damage and I felt comfortable DPSing. But I don't pretend the first scenario doesn't exist when talking to new healers. Healing is a shit job. There's a reason why the Healer queue is faster than the DPS queue. I'm not gonna look down my nose on someone for being afraid of doing extra when they're still not entirely comfortable with their role.

Or, hell, maybe they just don't like DPSing. That's fine, too. Unless they're doing endgame, I don't see the point of getting mad at someone for not liking DPSing. Like, why does it matter? It's an Expert. It's vapor. It's not the end of the world. It doesn't even matter.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Caspar - 08-16-2016

The pressure may not be as high, but I mostly see it as a matter of courtesy. If I can do something to make Experts less painful or waste less time for myself and others, I'll do it. I want other players to respect my free time as much as I do theirs. It's precisely *because* expert is easy that players should take the opportunity to DPS as they may not have the privilege of doing so in raids. It's because nobody wants to be there and the challenge isn't outrageous that players ought to try to be efficient in Expert. That's how I feel anyway. Being needlessly mean to the healer for not doing danage is unreasonable, but that's got more to do with the personality of the player than anything else.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - McBeefâ„¢ - 08-16-2016

Honestly I'm not even watching the screen most of the time in Expert DRs.

I'm just watching anime and going through the motions. If it takes 25 minutes instead of 20 I'll just start a new episode. I often go through long parts of the dungeon in the wrong stance because I don't notice. People probably get mad at me lol. 

I only go crazy when I'm with people I know, as it's fun to make them sweat.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Parvacake - 08-16-2016

When someone harasses me about stance dancing and healing? I go all:

[Image: giphy.gif]

It's the 'let's see how low I let your health drop until I mass burst you back to full health and give you cardiac arrest 4 times in one EX Roul.'

[Image: 5147938-tumblr_me0p5brbx21qb5hljo1_250.gif]

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Sounsyy - 08-16-2016

(08-16-2016, 01:10 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(08-16-2016, 12:57 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Quite literally said nothing about expecting others to play up to your standards. I only said that if you have the know-how, don't be part of the problem by also playing low-effort, even if everyone else in your PUG is.

But now that you mention it, I find it hilarious that the FFXIV community at large considers using 1/3 of your skillset as "Endgame-level" exclusive LOL. Like, WHMs or SCHs haven't had almost all of their DPS abilities by the early lv30s or 40s. Like only endgame level Tanks need to use cooldowns because there are no tank busters in Roulette dungeons?

You do realize that's an absolutely silly comparison, right? You're comparing something that is completely within the domain of the role - tanking CDs being used by a Tank who is there to tank - to something that is outside of a stated role - damage output on the part of a Healer who is there to heal.

I don't see how it's silly. I literally do not have to use CDs in a dungeon to survive. After all, my job is to hold hate, it's the healer's job to keep everyone alive- or so I've been told in this thread. And damaging isn't outside the stated role of a healer, as I expressed in the first post, it's actually 1/3 your role. It's just a part that the community at large has chosen to ignore because of personal preference because it isn't "required" for Expert. You don't not buff people with cards as AST because you're called "Healer" and not "Support."

So, again, I pose: I as a tank main am not "required" to use cooldowns in order to hold hate, nor will enemies flatten me in any dungeon because 1] unless I pull big I won't be taking that much damage, 2] no tank busters, 3] I have a Healer who's doing nothing but healing. And you literally see these tanks all over DF. I've healed them myself. I've raged at the rate at which their HP drops, but it was my job to heal them none-the-less.

Here's what I think the community doesn't understand, or ignores, whichever. No job in FFXIV is strictly bound within the Tank | Healer | Damage holy trinity. Every job, but especially tanks and healers, have abilities which allow them to flow seamlessly into additional roles if played effectively. It has been this way since early 1.0 and continues well into 3.0. When tanks regularly and habitually use Cooldowns and Self-heals in any and all content, it makes the Healer’s job significantly easier. And when a Healer is spending less time and MP cure bombing the Tank to keep them alive, it allows for the Healer to have the option to DPS. When a Healer is able to steadily dps for even a short amount of time, it makes the DPS’s job significantly easier, having less total damage to dish out between the two or four of them. This in turn helps conserve party resources (CDs, TP, MP) by reducing total fight durations. This isn’t just about beating an enrage timer, you can make your 4-man dungeons run much more smoothly as well.

Now, in a random PUG group, you won't always get that helping hand. We all know that. But that doesn't mean you can't still play out your part in that cogwheel. I can choose, as a tank, to pop cooldowns and make my healer's life easier. I can choose to swap into a DPS stance if I'm diligent in my cooldown usage and help damage-dealers. Or, I can just stay in tank stance and do my combo and not lose hate and let the Healer do their job all on their own. That is how the comparison is not silly.

RE: If you ask me to stancedance one more fucking time.. - Valence - 08-16-2016

That whole affair sums up pretty well how even SE does seem to have lots of internal debates on the matter themselves, with all that DPS heals are supposed to do or not to do and whatnot.