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+--- Thread: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. (/showthread.php?tid=17742)
Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Kallera - 11-16-2016
I'm trying to work on my character's(Kallera's)backstory. One gap that I have however has to do with her job and the nature of Darkside. As a Dark Knight, I tend to have her hide her weapon and glamour her armor to look as far away from a knight as possible, she is still one as far as her skills go.
1. In what sort of ways does a dark knight become one? Is communing a method to advance their learning of their art?
2. Is Darkside one common impulse of violence, or does it manifest in differently in different people like a Jungian shadow? Would Kallera's Darkside be different than another Dark Knight's?
3. iirc, "Frey" was seen as a rare occurance by Sidurgu, how is control over the Darkside usually attained? Is it again a matter of psychology between the user and their impulses?
4. I take it a habit of using Darkside for the effects would be a nono, right?
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Warren Castille - 11-16-2016
In order, to the best of my knowledge:
1) Dark Knights are basically The Punisher, located in Ishgard and focusing on combating the abuse of authority from corrupt clergy members. Where they stand after 3.4 is currently unknown.
2) Darkside is much like the Sith usage of the force, if you're a Star Wars geek: It's using strong emotion to power abilities. The DRK storylines reveal/imply that caring emotions are ultimately better suited than negative ones.
3) We're only ever given the Warrior of Light's perspective on how things work. Sidurgu and Fray aren't the every-man experience other Dark Knights have gone through. Your own idea is probably just fine.
Worth mentioning as well: We have no idea how many, varied, or distinct the other DRKs are. The storyline gives us absolutely no insight into the organization as a whole, if it can even be called a such. Someone with a lore book might know more here.
4) Keeping that on in RP varies from "not a big deal" to "completely obnoxious." Personal taste applies, but to my knowledge the general feeling is "please don't idle in RP environs with this on." It doesn't really serve a purpose.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Yssen - 11-16-2016
The lore book does clarify a few things.Â
1. There are no real clarification details on how people become Dark Knights, just that the first wave of them were inspired by Trypaniel the Unshod's actions in 960 of the 6th Astral Era. Tryphaniel is credited as the first Dark Knight, and the one who started the Dark Knights' crusade for the common folk in Ishgard. There are no real details on how he tapped into his Darkside or when (though it was likely in his trial by combat over killing a clergy member for molesting a child or shortly after when he was stripped of his knighthood). There were just accusations that he had "fallen to darkness." The entry for Fray talks about both book bound and physical aspects to Dark Knight training, and other bits of the Dark Knight entry confirm that DRKs have a lot of caster in them as well as just swinging a GS around.Â
2. Ones actual Darkside does appear to be very personal. Fueled differently for each person. The only common descriptors for Darkness and Darkside are that they are stygian, shadowy, and, entropic in nature. There is also mention that the Dark Knight does have to maintain control of their own Darkside or face a form of backlash (described as being entropic energies) for failing to maintain control. Fear and wrath are the most common emotional fuels, but we know there are other emotions that can fuel it from the DRK quests.
3. Again, no real clarifying details. I thing this speaks to the personal nature of tapping into and controlling one's Darkside, so your best bet is coming up with your own drives and such.
4. Covered a little above, but so long as you remain in control over your own power, you are all good. Backlash if you don't remain in control. It should be noted that Darkness, Darkside, and Dark Arts are all considered to be "forbidden" techniques. They are also all distinct things. It is mentioned that Dark Arts were not even invented until several centuries after the early Dark Knights were running around.
As Warren mentioned, there is not an overarching organization of Dark Knights that has been mentioned in game and the lore book does not clarify that much. Master and Student relationships are talked about, but nothing past it. This leads me to the conclusion that the Dark Knights are more of a loose fellowship/confederation of individuals, rather than a formal organized group. They really don't go into what they are doing past 3.4 either. As long as there are commoners being oppressed somewhere, you are likely to find a Dark Knights springing up, though.Â
I hope this has been helpful, yar.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Kilieit - 11-17-2016
Because I'm bored and trying to wake up / warm up before doing some actual real writing, here is a transcript of the lore book's double-page spread on Dark Knights.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Sounsyy - 11-17-2016
Since Kilieit covered the lore book info, I figured I'd post the DRK lore we get from the questline. Granted, it's not a ton. But I am putting the info behind spoiler tags because does contain some spoilers from the DRK storyline.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Rahferu - 11-24-2016
I play my character as Drk-type, but it's hard to explain.
I tie his character closely with the struggles seen against the WoL and their 'darkside' that ensues during a few cutscenes on the level 50 Drk quests (iirc.)
Rah also has a split personality, which can be sort of tied to the fact that he is what he and ignores his instincts to cause havoc, do bad things, etc. Basically it's the Rah that is capable of love, reason and compassion for others vs. his instincts to do bad things, tell everyone how he "really" feels, etc.
The drk thing happens to tie very nicely with what I already have going in his giant, far-reaching mess of a backstory. I definitely wouldn't say he's not your stereotypical dark knight perhaps--he uses his inherent dark abilities as a means to protect that which he values most, and he's perpetually at odds with said darker side. I wouldn't say he's a certified dark knight, but he's that way naturally. His is probably different than a regular dark knight's, and that's okay!
In Rah's case, I would even argue that the "darkside" is actually the real Rah, or who he should've been...but for space's sake I won't indulge the rest of the surrounding context for that.Â
How you want apply that to your character is up to you. But a much of it seems to be turning one's suffering and negativity into a shield to protect others and one's values. I'm very interested to see how you put this together, though! ^^;;
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Mordred Lyloche - 11-24-2016
I personally believe that most classes and jobs have their place in most cultures in the game, as headcanon-y as that might sound? Let me clarify a little bit.
For example, R'khan was a member of the Sultansworn. He served dutifully and proudly, without falling to temptation or bribery like some of his peers. When word reached him for how foul his comrades were, he and his companion left the order to join the Immortal Flames.
Recently, with the Immortal Flames venturing to Ishgard, both companions happened upon the crude and deplorable sight - of what appeared to be - two dark clad knights slaughtering valiant knights of Ishgard. While the truth was quite the opposite of that. In this example, the Temple Knights can very clearly be made the parallel to that of the Sultansworn of Ul'dah.
In the wake of this meeting, R'khan and his companion picked up on the trades that the two darkly clad knights were wielding, helped along by a soul crystal of their fallen comrade and took those skills back to Ul'dah with them. There, they have indeed used their abilities against the corrupt Brass Blades and self-serving Sultansworn that forced them from their roles years before, but they also began to wander the countryside in service to the common people.
In such a way, they adapted that of the Dark Knights of Ishgard to becoming something akin to Dark Knights of Ul'dah.
Most jobs and classes can be adapted to your character's cultures and what have you. There's very little to suggest that where your character might come from - should they be from Othard or something of the like - couldn't have their own twist on certain techniques and what have you. But I would suggest to use this very conservatively. Don't go too too far with it, but it's a handy tool for character building.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Kilieit - 11-24-2016
I also RP a non-Ishgardian dark knight. My character's soul crystal was given to him by another player-character, who I think was given it by an Ishgardian dark knight. I find it really funny that the Rogues' Guild quest chain and the Dark Knight quest chain were written by the same writer, because they both follow the same "justice in the darkness" trope, haha...
Ah... to answer something in the OP I didn't throw my 2p in on yet...
I think "darksides" are highly personal (based around the person, their experiences, the experiences held within the specific soul crystal they own, and how they would expect or want such a thing to manifest), and so I think... how you choose to present/shape it is down to you, and what makes sense for your character...
As long as it has the same drawbacks as it should, i.e. that it's possible to give onesself over to it too much and cause onesself harm. Remember that at its core, no matter how your character perceives it or describes it to other people, it's an ability that feeds on your character's inner aether to provide strength.
My character's Darkside did "take a face/voice", superficially similarly to how Esteem took Fray's, but that's because his predecessor told him to expect it to. It doesn't pull the wool over his eyes in quite the same way Esteem did the Warrior of Light, because my character has an actual real physical mentor to advise him on what it is and what it can (and can't) do. Its apparent "behaviour" is heavily informed/guided by how my character expects it to behave, based on what his mentor has told him and what he expects out of the person whose voice it mimics.
If my character's mentor had told my character to expect it to be a feeling in the back of his mind, then it probably would've manifested like that instead. IDK, I think all we can know from canon thus far is that it's highly variable based on circumstance - I try to inform my writing of it in equal parts by what the quests were like, what little I've seen of how other players play the job, and what I think works best for my character and the role I want his soul crystal to play in his overall story.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - John Spiegel - 11-25-2016
It would be silly to believe Ishgard is the only place dark knights happen. Sure, yeah. Calling them dark KNIGHTS is a thing in Ishgard because they cast away laws and order and whatnot. But to believe in the entirety of the history of the world that in other lands or individuals didn't drink deep the darkness to protect others. They just weren't called dark knights. Anyways! If you call JJ a knight, he will say he was never no knight. Dark Knight is just a common realm term because of the history Ishgard has with such.. that's what I'm going with anyways...
ANYWHO, HERE'S YOUR QUESTIONS!
1. In what sort of ways does a dark knight become one? Is communing a method to advance their learning of their art?
One becomes a dark knight by 'scratching that itch' of a whisper in their heart, the soul gem amplified one's inherent abilities as is lore for soul gems. I equate Communion as something similar to the way the Greybeards taught the Dragonborn shouts, through sharing one's knowledge/aetheric imprint of an ability as a means to "light a torch along one's Dark Path"... kind of lets one's mentor or whatever give the student a flavor ability or whatever.
2. Is Darkside one common impulse of violence, or does it manifest in differently in different people like a Jungian shadow? Would Kallera's Darkside be different than another Dark Knight's?
The Darkside is merely your internal self-preservation speaking up. It can and should manifest in people differently. The way my group goes about it is that the person's strongest emotion, positive or negative, is the root of the Darkside. Say deep down you are really an angry person, anger always having been the emotion you used to hide how hurt you were. That is amplified by the Darkside and would be a pretty good standard emotion of your Darkside when in your headspace. Say your deepest emotion was sadness, the visual representation of your Darkside could be the standard red-glowey-eyed form PLUS a trail of red from both eyes like tears.
3. iirc, "Frey" was seen as a rare occurance by Sidurgu, how is control over the Darkside usually attained? Is it again a matter of psychology between the user and their impulses?
I like to think of it as remembering why you became a dark knight as being what helps you gain control (or lose it). Those that travel the path for others safety have that matter of grit to remember to not drink deep the abyss. Those that did it for pure power and selfish reasons might find themselves slipping deeper and deeper out of control..
4. I take it a habit of using Darkside for the effects would be a nono, right?
With great power also comes great crux. Having no adverse effects to some power, whether it be having to take time to recharge that photon laser beam or having to eat cookies to recharge magic juice for spellcasting, a good RPer will have some sort of built-in system for this... someone that uses the Darkside constantly is probably getting drunk off power so they'll lose control and whatnot.
All that being said, everyone does things differently. These are just a short summary of how -I- go about the Dark Knighting.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Valence - 11-25-2016
It would equally be silly to believe that this 'science' must have been discovered somewhere else. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Why would it have to be by necessity?
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Gegenji - 11-25-2016
(11-25-2016, 02:19 PM)Valence Wrote: It would equally be silly to believe that this 'science' must have been discovered somewhere else. Maybe it has, maybe it hasn't. Why would it have to be by necessity?I think Ishgard's caste system and whatnot are actually why Dark Knights actually managed to manifest as they did. I mean, you CAN argue that Ul'dah has its own little... hive of scum and villainy thing going... but that's more due to coin being the law rather than an abuse of rank and lineage. Plus, the whole heretic situation.
So, I'd actually imagine more of an inversion of the Paladin abilities (Spirits Without, I suppose is an IG example of this?) happening before someone there spontaneously developing similar skills. Or perhaps going more towards a spellsword sort of approach using Thaumaturgic magic. Of course, with the gates open now, there's nothing keeping the DRKs or their knowledge crossing borders.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Rahferu - 11-25-2016
We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Mordred Lyloche - 11-26-2016
(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)
You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.
My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.
But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Rahferu - 11-26-2016
(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:Actually,(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)
You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.
My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.
But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.
That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â
You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.
I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.
Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.
RE: Questions about Dark Knight and Darkside's nature. - Virella - 11-26-2016
(11-26-2016, 02:37 AM)Rahferu Wrote:The thing is, it is confirmed in lore, so there is no speculation left.(11-26-2016, 01:47 AM)R Wrote:Actually,(11-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Rahferu Wrote: We have reason to believe that there were so many civilizations (contemporary or not) Â were full of unfair happenings that could've urged dark knight-type folks to take the DRK path, so to speak.
Every civilization in ffxiv has(or had) its own issues. Where there are societies with unfairness, there are people who will experience injustice and therefore pain or loss of some kind. And that's really all there is it to it. They may have been officially recognized more in Ishgard, but due the fact that ishgard hasn't been the only hive of injustice, villainy, etc. so I'm sure the concept of dark knights didn't start there. Maybe it earned its name and a more substantial following
I'm sure there were dark knights or people who did what dark knights do long before Ishgard's dark knights were officially dark knight'ing (that sounds sorta of sorta hipster-y, but it seems likely to me tbh.) My character would be one such example. People have definitely had access to using "the dark arts" before Ishgard was around, too. I think it may be a matter of documentation--some of these earlier people that might've fallen under the DRK category weren't mentioned as dark knights. Rah's a monster-esqe character who tries his best to be as much of a person or as "human" as possible.Â
I also think the stipulations and details of the "darkside" depends mostly on the person, but we do know that the it consistently does and says the edgy things that the person's counterpart wouldn't do (a bit like when someone asks you for a favor, but you're itching to to tell them 'no'. Out of courtesty or whatever, a lot of people would say "yes" anyways....the darkside is the pent up bit inside saying "HAHAHA GUESS WHAT, HERE'S HOW I REEEEALLY FEEL >8D".)
You're taking it a little too far in the regard that there's the capability out there. Saying that there -must- have been Dark Knights (named or otherwise) out there before Ishgard simply because of tyranny and the like is ridiculous. Not to mention the lore book goes into detail about the Dark Arts being something that was picked up on much later than the first Dark Knights beginning their long, perilous duty of service.
My post about adapting the teachings and mentality of the Dark Knight to other cultures and sort of threading the line is just that: adaption and the like. You shouldn't make up lore to suit your character. R'khan, for example, adapted what he learned of Dark Knights to that of what he knows of Ul'dah, beginning his own service in that regard and even beyond that: to Eorzea as a whole.
But yeah, you should definitely stay away from spitting your own thoughts, scribblings, and the like as true blue lore.
I'm pretty sure that nothing I said about that being a possibility due to the factors of injustice, political unrest and people having access to learn about dark arts prior to Ishgard was untrue. I think you're misinterpreting me here.
That's NOT the same as making up lore. There is a difference between using reasoning FROM THE LORE to justify/explain why your character has a tie to something--which you did, yourself.Â
The lore doesn't provide direct examples of what YOUR character did, or what many other people's characters did. You make a character and try to fit the storyline somewhere within the lore boundaries. Just because something isn't 100% proven in stone doesn't mean it isn't, or couldn't be, canon--given how SE actually gives us a lot of room to wonder and fill in the blanks.Â
You also said earlier on in this thread that we aren't sure WHERE dark knights originally came from--and I'm saying that the materials and conditions for a dark knight to function and exist in some form were very much around before Ishgard was.Â
The "true blue" lore tells us that there was suffering, access to the dark arts, and that people were victimized by severe injustice and villainy in other places pre-ishgard.
I am allowed to speculate, too--and so is everybody else, especially when I bother to research and justify my claims--which are TOTALLY based on the lore here. I'm not saying YEAH THAT WAS TOTALLY THE CASE, no questions asked....I'm saying it definitely seems likely, and here's a bunch of reasons why. This is part of RP and how people make characters. I fail to see how that's ridiculous.
Furthermore, I am NOT the only one in this thread to have suggested that it could've happened in other places and at other times. I think I've actually re-iterated what other have said and provided why my character personally has a tie to the concept of dark knights too.
Might just be me, but people speculate about the grey areas, or things we don't know. But I might just be wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯