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New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Printable Version

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RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Zhavi - 07-27-2017

I once had a pretty good arc going with Zhavi and a player playing a yellowjacket character. Zhi's a petty criminal, but her shenanigans eventually drew the ire of the jack, and eventually she wound up getting caught and jailed. Due to her help with another crime, she got boosted out of jail. We played it a little fast and loose because we don't know the exact penal code for Limsa, but you know -- it wasn't all doom and gloom. I had a lot of fun with it.

Another thing to remember is that not everyone wants to get your character turned over to the law -- or necessarily even knows a crime is being committed. Once upon a time Zhi and her partner-in-crime convinced a man that this other guy had done some bad, bad stuff to zhi, and convinced the player character to beat and almost kill the dude, who was innocent.

When he found out, he wound up beating Zhi pretty thoroughly and then extorting her, so she had to lay low for a long time (I actually had someone ask me oocly if I wanted them to step in icly when the beatdown was happening, haha).

I had lots of those with Zhi. My point is that all you gotta do is just work with the people you're playing with. You can have a character who is a total piece of shit, have them do bad things and get away with some of those bad things, and get caught on other things. It's a matter of give and take, like with all rp. Your character doesn't have to go away forever, or get killed. There are innumerable varieties of consequences and possibilities! Don't be afraid to explore them. Smile

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Valence - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 10:01 AM)Erah Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 09:34 AM)Valence Wrote: Well, the world isn't like that. Bad stuff happens. Bad guys don't always get "caught". Lots of petty crimes especially, get unnoticed, or even condoned by the society itself. The 5 Eorzean city states are perfect examples of that. The world is grey. People tending toward black aren't necessarily going to be doomed more than someone tending more to the white.

...

So, what about all those shades of grey? Why would someone like Lolorito (don't tell me he isn't portrayed a villainous character) would have to be doomed from the beginning? 
((other rather interesting stuff from Valance cut, I'm just not quoting it all because it's a long but well constructed post.  Go read it.))


The problem with comparing this to open RP is open RP is there to get noticed.  If petty crime open RP happens and doesn't draw a response, what is the point other then chest beating? Once a direct action draws a response, a story begs a resolution.

Lolorito is a grand example of a 'good' kind of antagonist to play.  He rarely acts overtly, he manipulates situations to his own end.  If he stays subtle there'll be a lot of grumbling about him but nothing actionable.  Because he doesn't drop to the level of 'stupid evil' he doesn't warrant a direct punitive response.  In fact he's positioned himself to where a direct response would probably have the actor fall on the wrong side of the law.

Lolorito is the best sort of example of a RP-able antagonist.  I wish I'd have thought to mention him in my earlier post.

Well I mean, we could even take Thordan. He's portrayed as a villain for the reason the game and narration takes the bias for a conciliatory and open/liberal society, but politically he's actually very pragmatic, protective of his nation, and overall, is a perfect sovereigntist. The ends justify the means, etc. It doesn't sit well with our own usual view (and yet, not so sure those days), and the narrative that takes a very western progressive and liberal view.

The same way people can have a hard time separating IC from OOC, I find they have a even harder time to keep political neutrality in their take on the world. Of course everyone will have more or less strong political views on everything OOCly, but that's 1) not necessarily the case for their character and especially 2) not necessarily how the world works. The world is neutral.

As soon as you try to shift the balance of the world to suit a message through your story, like the FFXIV story does very strongly with with some black and white strokes by the way, then you have to accept that not everyone will subscribe to that view, and I find it safer to just take on the principle that everything is neutral as a basis. It's all about cultural relativism, which is absolutely atrocious at times IRL, but pretty mandatory in my opinion for roleplay.

So... Seeing petty thieves trying to cut purses in public RP is pretty boring in my opinion. If that's what float people boats, sure. But having actual "villains" show up and behave in the boundaries of the law, being very amicable and socializing, is where it shines the most. It is always fun to make goodey two shoes characters and white knights grind their gears by showing up and speaking about touchy subjects. Or just offering a very debatable point of view like "Thordan did nothing wrong, peasants". "Not everyone is born equal and some cultures are better than others" and whatnot. Is that something that a mustache twirling villain would say? Sure. But not only. Just open your eyes and you will see plenty of your average joe around you IRL to have similar beliefs.

And people don't do that a lot because they get immediately dogpiled and shunned by other characters most of the time. Which is to be expected and pretty rational. If you have someone from the nazi party showing up at a commie rally in 1939, you might expect it to end up like that, or worse. This is why I said it's a vicious circle. Nobody plays it, with that fear in mind: everyone is good, so playing a baddie would be social suicide at the very least. And they are right to do so, because alone, that wouldn't work. The question wouldn't even be asked if there was a good ratio of characters with "different views".

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Erah'sae - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 10:34 AM)Valence Wrote: (snipped good stuff)

And people don't do that a lot because they get immediately dogpiled and shunned by other characters most of the time. Which is to be expected and pretty rational. If you have someone from the nazi party showing up at a commie rally in 1939, you might expect it to end up like that, or worse. This is why I said it's a vicious circle. Nobody plays it, with that fear in mind. And they are right to do so, because alone, that wouldn't work. The question wouldn't even be asked if there was a good ratio of characters with "different views".
I think we're getting a bit off the original topic, but it's a good topic.  Maybe we  should spin up thread to discuss this part further?  The original poster was asking on 'random open rp villainy' where we're delving into the dangers of differing views from popular opinion and resulting antagonistic responses.

That sort of antagonistic behavior over alternative viewpoints is society though, and it shows in game at times.  The Ishgarde's story line has some good examples of this too over the peace with the dragons.   Even the main characters have some issues with radical viewpoints (or even simple ones.  There's some trash talk about pirates from a certain scion.)

While the world of Eorzea is neutral at a high level, and that shows a lot in the MSQ, at that level you're dealing with people who have continuous external threats to deal with as well.  This is a strong unifying force that causes many 'sins' to be overlooked.  (I could go on about how this sort of thing also works in the real world but that'd delve into topics best left off public forums these days.) 

Once you get to the common folk, you start to see the polarization show up again.  Ul'dah with the Ala Mhigans.  Ishgarde with Asyale's followers, etc.

I do it's valid for characters to coalesce around like minded viewpoints and reject those they find offensive.  That is probably more the core of why we don't see more RPers taking more extreme stances.  You really need a base to work with to cause that sort of conflict and not have your roleplay just dry up.  To get more varied viewpoints someone has to be the first to create a base for that 'different view' and get others to buy into it as well.

A good example of this I've recently seen a group of Garlean sympathizers Rping about doing just that.  They have established a group to freely RP those characters in while interacting in the world and causing other people teeth-grinding headaches.  There hasn't been much dogpiling of them (there was once I saw in the middle of Gridania proper...  that's kind of to be expected though.)

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Accendie - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 03:57 AM)Skye Noctis Wrote: Heya folks Smile
 I have been playing this game for roughly half a year, still levelling slowly to reach the StormBlood areas. So I really only had the time to observe the random RP in Ul'dah Inn and passing groups for a minute each. 

I have been having this character really since HW release because I had ARR trial and HW gifted during its launch and made a character. Which then played very briefly before leaving it to dust for years, which only recently putting my hands on to this game.

So I went to ask questions, only to be a little disappointed due to the fact that the community mainly revolves around "parking" RP and all of them being the good guys. Which makes random public RP a bit boring without any conflict that can cause interesting RP for character development. There are FC that allow "villains", but that's about it. I really like my social FC that I am right now, have put a lot of effort and dedication into it to change for a RP one. 
I am mentioning this, only because mine and my friend's characters aren't holy souls, not good guys at all, as if they can be violent if provoked but totally can be in a social community when comes to specific circumstances peacefully.  (I RPd for years in other games being the good guys, and I got bored of it eventually hence the character's alignment of choice) 


So I need a little bit further insight about this matter, to if the information given was true and possibly more that I'm missing.

Hope you guys don't mind if I go back to the OP for a bit.

Like Erah'sae said, what it sounds like you want is more of an antagonist rather than just a 'villain'. Really that term is something most who have studied storytelling (writing, acting, etc) try to avoid because, you might have heard this before, "Every 'good' villain is the hero of their own story." 

First let me explain much of the RP that I've observed (sadly from the sidelines as IRL has kept me away from the community for much the past year) since I started playing. The RP on Balmung seems to fall into a few categories, usually based on 'depth' and 'time involvement'. 

In my experience it seems that most of the 'random public rp' you'll find is simply the casual 'let's sit and chat' type stuff. Perfect for folks who only have a limited about of free time and just want something relaxing, fun and social to do. Most of my RP is like this because my IRL simply doesn't allow the time to put into more deep plots and storylines. This seems like this is the only RP you've experienced so that is why you haven't seen any antagonists. More on this in a bit.

A step up from there is the 'public event rp'. Things like regular tavern nights, fight stuff, shops, club crescent, etc. Because these are regular scheduled events you tend to get the same groups of people going and their personal interactions deepen and you can get a bit more 'story' out of it as your character get to know one another. However, in general there isn't much overall 'plot' so it's still very casual. Usually the FC/groups who put these on will have their own plots that these events touch on.

From there you get into the more 'group rp'. Wither it's FC related or just a group of friends doing their stuff, this is where you find your plotlines and major story arcs. Very time and energy intensive (if done right). This is where you'll find your antagonists. Why? 

Because the key to any good antagonist play is communication with your protagonist players. I played a Neutral evil support character for -years- on WoW so trust me when I say that communication is key. It's good for any roleplay but even moreso with Antagonist RP. This doesn't mean you have to warn your protagonists of every move you make, but rather that if there is something going on all parties involved know how to work out when something is happening. Back when I ran Fight Club we had someone do a bomb attack. At first I think they were wanting it to be just a small thing but because we had good communication we were able to make not only the whole thing run fun but random attendees were able to participate and I don't think I heard a single complaint about it. 

That's why it's really hard to have the random open rp antagonists. Could it be done? Yes. It's -really really hard though. I think that's why most just.. don't do it. Many put on their public 'nice' face and save their evil schemes for the more indepth plot driven storyines with their groups. Many of the RPers I've met here on FFXIV have been RPing for longer than the game (I've been rping longer than some of you kiddos have been alive) and we all know the pitfalls folks can fall into with open RP. It's just easier to do that type of RP with a set group.

The other hard part is, like mentioned before, the 'consequences'. What happens when your antagonistic get's caught? Is there a law enforcement group to play 'cops'? how do you handle being jailed? Are you willing to let your character being killed if the protagonist decide to resort to extreme measures? Too many RPers invest themselves into their characters and don't want them gone. But if the protagonists can't effectively stop the antagonists then things can get frustrating and repetitive and in the end no one is having any fun. (I've seen this happen!) One solution my old group has was we had a corrupt judge we could pay off to 'get off with a slap on the wrists'. However, it get's old fast. 

One of my ideas I was trying to do was to create an FC of 'disposable' characters that people could 'rent'. Not necessary faceless generic NPCs (which would be available of course), but also more in depth characters with full backstories and whatnot as needed. Characters not 'invested' in that once the plot was done I could phantasia them into someone else and no worries. 

Then, like Erah'sae pointed out, there is the option of being the 'subtle antagonist'. Someone who has schemes that drive the protagonists nutz but are just this side of tolerable so you don't want to outright kill them. Lolorito really is an awesome example of this. Through the MSQ you despise him but then he does things that help you out and you can't bring yourself to want to stab him at first sight. He's USEFUL. 


In any case, if you're wanting some really good indepth storyline driven RP then I suggest getting in with a good RP FC.


*goes back into lurk mode now that she's changed characters*

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Gegenji - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 01:30 PM)Accendie Wrote: One of my ideas I was trying to do was to create an FC of 'disposable' characters that people could 'rent'. Not necessary faceless generic NPCs (which would be available of course), but also more in depth characters with full backstories and whatnot as needed. Characters not 'invested' in that once the plot was done I could phantasia them into someone else and no worries. 

There used to be an FC on Balmung that did something like that. Called... NPC, I think? Just a place for people who played support characters and the like that people could hire to fill in for various roles in plots and such. Was pretty neat... dunno if it's still going strong or not, since I haven't seen their tag in a while.

... Though given their purpose, I guess that's not too surprising? Blush

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Accendie - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 01:43 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(07-27-2017, 01:30 PM)Accendie Wrote: One of my ideas I was trying to do was to create an FC of 'disposable' characters that people could 'rent'. Not necessary faceless generic NPCs (which would be available of course), but also more in depth characters with full backstories and whatnot as needed. Characters not 'invested' in that once the plot was done I could phantasia them into someone else and no worries. 

There used to be an FC on Balmung that did something like that. Called... NPC, I think? Just a place for people who played support characters and the like that people could hire to fill in for various roles in plots and such. Was pretty neat... dunno if it's still going strong or not, since I haven't seen their tag in a while.

... Though given their purpose, I guess that's not too surprising? Blush

Possibly. I know we had our "Redshirts Inc" FC for quite awhile till my IRL got busy. Man I'm hoping this year isn't quite as busy cause I miss RPing. I'm still hoping to get this off the ground since RPing several NPCs would be a ton easier on me.

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Lydia Lightfoot - 07-27-2017

(07-27-2017, 08:30 AM)Jajape Jape Wrote: Lydia, please lighten up. This person seems new and you're obviously scaring them.

Everything she said aside, people are generally willing to work with you if you plan things out OOCly in advance so everyone can get sorted before the situation actually happens, and there are no toes stepped on. If you plan for the villain to get out after a week or so in jail, then the heroes can't complain without seeming like assholes.

As others mentioned, the OP had specifically mentioned random RP, which implies no planning has taken place. Obviously villainy can be played out quite well with a closed group that's taken time to discuss and scheme OOC to set the framework of the scenario and agree upon the outcome, but that wasn't quite what was brought up. Smile

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Meena - 07-27-2017

As far as I am aware, not only OOC but lore-wise being committed of a crime in any of the city states, depending what it is, is dealt with sevre consequences. So there is also that aspect of the game you have to look at too. Tonberry

In Gridania, they have some of the most severe punishments of any city state. Which, is generally why the city is so peaceful. 

I'd recommend summoning someone more of a lore expert of the city-state laws than myself for further information, but honestly  - if you arent willing to accept the lore consequences set by city states for your actions, it's probably best to  not A) Get caught. B) not play a villain.

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-28-2017

I've personally run into a slump myself given my character's current story in catching a spy and it's leaders that result in this unwanted attention. I posted looking for garleans or any form of villainous type that could help with this but I've yet to find anyone, mostly I've only received pm's as well. As the objective for my character is to catch and stop the ambushes and spies to aid in the Ala Mhigan resistance. So I'm left with either capturing and they escape only to repeat this sorta thing... or death. There's also another option though unlikely for villain RP characters to follow through on, which is the "surrender and give up your evil ways" trope. Where the villain admits to it and then just goes right back to it... Gilgamesh pretty much falls into this territory really, though he's more of a rival than a bandit or villain.

There's another confusing point, is the concept of "rivals" vs "villains". A rival can be a morally grey person that interferes with your character's concepts of morality and still live to get away with things, maybe fight every so often but no deaths. Villains on the other hand end up either having to be extremely crafty to never get caught, always get out of jail, or die. So it's been difficult for myself to find someone willing to join in my character;s plot as I wouldn't want to create that for their story to halt their character in it's tracks. At the same time... defeats the point of the story to have it in a never ending circle or lead to the inevitable point of how it began. Going all that way to catch a thief or end their cycle of terror only to let them get away feels a lil... lackluster? I'm not sure what to do about this either atm.

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-28-2017

I had some responses to this in a related conversation elsewhere. I'm gonna quote them here. Names of related quotes inside have been changed and the post link information removed.


Someone Else 1 Wrote:Why are people so hypercritical of crime rp?

Is it the new White Mage/Dragoon?

Did I miss something?

Am I bad?

Someone Else 2 Wrote:I imagine it has something to do with an incident in which a law enforcement RPer recently tried to godmod arrest two people acting vaguely suspiciously in Kuugane and didn't accept getting captured. It probably inspired a lot of other RPers who wish they could arrest half the QS into wishing there were more universal public RP rules.

I can kinda understand but you really can't enforce anything in such a large, disparate set of people

Someone Else 1 Wrote:ohhhhh that, right.  Thanks!

Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:It's also just "one of those things." Because there aren't some universal rules of RP beyond "please don't god mod, please don't metagame, please don't be an ass OOC" there can't really be perfect unmoderated/not-DMed spontaneous public antagonist RP because we run into the same issues as everything else. Someone will try to overstep. Someone will oversell. Someone will get mad because at some insufficient communication mishap. Someone will already have that really cool idea they didn't want interrupted. And so on until we have decaying horse tartare.

It's basically the same thing as freeform combat. Trusting random people is difficult. Especially when one has no idea what they're gonna type.

It's also why I keep my villain stuff neatly tucked away for that sweet sweet pre-planned RP.

Someone Else 1 Wrote:I think I'm just behind the times.  When I did a lot of crime rp it was pretty unheard of for anyone to walkup, ever.  We'd just skulk around a lot and complain at the lack of yellowjacket characters, haha.

then again I also do way less open world rp than I used to.

Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:My FFXIV RP beginnings were during the "let's be a Sultansworn" craze. So a lot of what I'd seen when I started was RP issues about law enforcement RP boundaries, too many heroes, etc. I have to assume any RP that incorporates freeform/interpreted combat had these issues though.

Someone Else 1 Wrote:I started shortly before that, so it was mostly the same for me, except I exclusively rped in Limsa, so I watched all the Ul'dah rp with greedy, envious little eyes, haha.  But it was the opposite end of the coin there, I felt, with most of the criticism being on brass blades/sultansworn.

Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:It was on both sides.

Issues because law enforcement "can't tell me what to do" being coupled with uncatchable villains who can never be caught or found out heh hehe hehehhh allmyrpinsaychat that would make every single "hero" RPer focus target them. And then there is/was always the inevitable bar argument going physical and suddenly all those wallflowers have their armor on and their swords and shields out and are ready to pounce.

Like, a lot of people want that antagonist RP, but there aren't enough antagonists to go around. Or when there are, one or both sides gets touchy. The idea of a delayed reaction to antagonstist RP could help the issue. Like someone noticing they were robbed 5-10 minutes later like it was mentioned in the originating thread. ...at the same time, we hit that "I can only give so many responses and handle so many people in a scene" when a stupid evil villain walks in and 20+ people suddenly all want in on that.


RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Skye Noctis - 07-28-2017

Thank you all for the responses!
It's a shame that RP is viewed the way it is. I was hoping things were a bit more free and fluid. 

I guess when I start and try out roleplaying I will just need to prepare myself for a more casual experience and see how I get on. 
I can't help feeling that anyone wanting to be a little below the law, even if it's just brief, would immediately get swamped and given the ultimatum of 'jail forever, or execution'. There seems to be a lack of empathy to anyone wanting to have a little fun and give protagonists something interesting to deal with. 

On WoW if you wanted to play a criminal, then when you inevitably get caught (which makes for interesting RP anyway) you'll go to jail. Log off and come back in a day or so. And if you didn't take the piss and actually behaved for a bit that was more or less it. this is an example of course for theft or assault. Actual murder or along those lines is more frowned upon I'll agree.

But the way you guys have talked about it, any punishment is supposed to replicate real life, or at least real life in medieval times. Aka life in prison or death. I don't see much empathy for someone wanting to add a little spice to life.

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Zhavi - 07-28-2017

(07-28-2017, 06:30 PM)Skye Noctis Wrote: Thank you all for the responses!
It's a shame that RP is viewed the way it is. I was hoping things were a bit more free and fluid. 

I guess when I start and try out roleplaying I will just need to prepare myself for a more casual experience and see how I get on. 
I can't help feeling that anyone wanting to be a little below the law, even if it's just brief, would immediately get swamped and given the ultimatum of 'jail forever, or execution'. There seems to be a lack of empathy to anyone wanting to have a little fun and give protagonists something interesting to deal with. 

On WoW if you wanted to play a criminal, then when you inevitably get caught (which makes for interesting RP anyway) you'll go to jail. Log off and come back in a day or so. And if you didn't take the piss and actually behaved for a bit that was more or less it. this is an example of course for theft or assault. Actual murder or along those lines is more frowned upon I'll agree.

But the way you guys have talked about it, any punishment is supposed to replicate real life, or at least real life in medieval times. Aka life in prison or death. I don't see much empathy for someone wanting to add a little spice to life.

My advice is to get to know people and set up stuff privately if you wanna avoid the grab-bag that can be public opinion. There's always someone willing!

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Melkire - 07-28-2017

As has already been mentioned, there's a common theme throughout fiction that gets brought forward into the limelight in certain genres (heist, noir in general, etc.):

Smart criminals don't advertise. Most of the time, you only catch the dumb ones.

Substitute "villains" for "criminals" and you have the fundamental problem with "bad guy RP," which is that the overt ones don't last long and the covert ones don't get noticed. This is further compounded by hero types outnumbering villain types, which only incentivizes more caution and discretion on the villain's part. This is even FURTHER compounded by competing interests in conflict resolution, and that gets more complicated in an open setting compared to a private one.

Sadly, villains in FFXIV RP work best as one-shots or as central figures in a private storyline with a DM a la pen-and-paper gaming. That's not to say that a villain in an open setting doesn't work. It just takes a lot more effort (planning, communication, inevitable drama, and so on). A lot of that is owed to the gravity placed upon criminal or morally reprehensible activities in XIV's RP scene. There's an appreciation for the significance and "weightiness" of murder, for instance, that parallels and is most likely drawn from attitudes on display in FFXIV's Main Story Quests.

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-28-2017

Genocidal murdermongerer like Thordan and Zenos = gets spanked and made into heroes' little bitch

Semi-nakama bumblefuck like Gilgamesh = beloved by all and sundry

You do the math

RE: New RPer Help. Good and Bad guys? - Arashin Kujqai - 07-28-2017

(07-28-2017, 09:19 PM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: Genocidal murdermongerer like Thordan and Zenos = gets spanked and made into heroes' little bitch

Semi-nakama bumblefuck like Gilgamesh = beloved by all and sundry

You do the math
That kinda falls in line with what I was saying about the concept of "Villains" Vs "Rivals". Gilgamesh isn't inherently a bad guy from what I can tell, just like the asshole from the lancer questline. He may have been an opponent(and died too, geez no one gets breaks huh?) that disagreed with the lancer guild's concepts but he wasn't out committing crimes or planning schemes. Just simply someone who opposed proper training and the guild + wanted to prove true strength through his dumbass means.

Really wish there could be some middle line drawn here as I'd love to find a villain of course as everyone's stated above, I'm sure every noble would love to.