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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Spying In Character: Communication is Key? (/showthread.php?tid=21091)
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - rinlai - 12-15-2017
To your concerns about people being picky Ic and not wanting others to join into their public scene, I'd say your best response is to leave them alone and not interact--as a person who holds those views will likely be a very rude RP'er. In my opinion, the adherence of IC stands above OOC communication, and not breaking that immersion is something I take somewhat seriously. You are right, there are /many/ people who will change their behavior based on what you communicate with them, because a majority of more criminal RP'ers want to get away with what they do wrong, so my best advice is as I stated above--keep as much as you can Ic and just play it out as it would progress should the world be reality. If they speak in public, they can be heard in public, if they do crimes in public, they can be held accountable by witnesses, and if they rely on OOC boundaries to protect their IC actions--they're a rude RP'er, and I'd find others to interact with at that point.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Dawnstar - 12-15-2017
I always announce my presence via a /e or other actions if I am spying on someone.
It only seems polite to let others know. After all, they may not want that kind of interaction. This does mean that players can, and sometimes will, metagame and tactfully not mention things they otherwise would when I'm around.
But I perhaps naively feel that if a player is the type to metagame, perhaps I've chosen the wrong person to spy on and it's not right to mistrust people as a starting point.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Teadrinker - 12-16-2017
(12-14-2017, 10:47 PM)Akeno Asukai Wrote: Now, what I'm getting from the community thus far is that it is still pretty divided however, it would appear (to me at least) that a good portion of the community shares my thoughts: if you're in a public hot spot, using /say and my character is clearly within a reasonable range -- your information is mine. It also seems that while people here aren't necessarily against someone listening in, they do feel that even in public, eavesdropping warrants a response -- whether it be an out of character whisper or an emote directed to the person(s) being watched.
Some points have been brushed over -- such as people being "picky" when it comes to walk-up role-play and it does lead me back to my concerns (which have already happened on Balmung) regarding people who intentionally change their behavior when they know someone is watching them.
   I'm willing to chalk this up to a bad experience, but when it's someone who is considered by others (who were close to my character at the time) to be a "major player" and a little unavoidable unless I cut ties in-character with the people specifically linked to this bad experience. How, exactly, does the majority of the community handle this kind of... situation? Do you just abandon the whole eavesdropping on this person? Do you respect their decision and continue to make attempts at eavesdropping on semi-public and public scenarios? I am genuinely curious as to how people prefer to handle these situations -- especially since I have some very public, very unsettling outcomes to this kind of seclusion behavior on other platforms.Â
People can say that what people say in /s is theirs to do whatever with all they want. At the end of the day though, if Bob doesn't want X situation having a major impact on his character because playing it out is going to make him loathe playing it then that's that. End of discussion. How and if you interact with Bob from there on out is your call.
It's sounds like you're citing a particular situation without directly citing it. A lot of these situations have small details and nuances that you can really only factor in properly when knowing all the details so I'm not sure you're going to get the feedback you want here as it exactly pertains to this situation.
What happened here could span the gambit from Bob feeling like he wasn't communicated with to others saying Bob just doesn't like consequences for his actions. The folk involved just need to communicate and work that out among themselves and I think that's the best advice anyone can give.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Mermaid - 12-17-2017
(12-16-2017, 08:48 AM)Teadrinker Wrote: People can say that what people say in /s is theirs to do whatever with all they want. At the end of the day though, if Bob doesn't want X situation having a major impact on his character because playing it out is going to make him loathe playing it then that's that. End of discussion. How and if you interact with Bob from there on out is your call.
It's sounds like you're citing a particular situation without directly citing it. A lot of these situations have small details and nuances that you can really only factor in properly when knowing all the details so I'm not sure you're going to get the feedback you want here as it exactly pertains to this situation.
What happened here could span the gambit from Bob feeling like he wasn't communicated with to others saying Bob just doesn't like consequences for his actions. The folk involved just need to communicate and work that out among themselves and I think that's the best advice anyone can give.
After reading this thread that's pretty much my opinion. This is my first time attempting to do MMO based RP and seeing this mentality of 'anything you write in /say is fair game for anyone' honestly makes me never want to use /say. I can only assume it's due to the prevalence of walk up RP where in most of my previous communities that wasn't exactly a thing.
If I post a thread in a public forum and clearly label it as closed does that mean you should be able to jump in? The forum is public and everyone can see it, after all.
If I decide to run my D&D campaign at a game store does that mean you can drop a sheet and a mini on the table, pull up a chair, and announce that you are joining the campaign? I should be running the game at my house if I want to be private, right?
I honestly do believe that if you want something to be private you should keep it to /party or /tell but who am I to tell someone how they should be RPing. If someone wants to discuss their black market dealings using /say in the Quicksand without the Brass Blades/Immortal Flames/whoever arresting them then they have every right to even if people disagree with it. You never know why someone doesn't want you involved.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Arashin Kujqai - 12-17-2017
(12-11-2017, 06:58 PM)Sophia_Grave Wrote:Just my perspective here, while I understand entirely what you're saying.. But if that's the case, they typically use their own party chat or linkshell or etc. They probably wouldn't be using /say chat openly when it's still just Pearl Lane there, even if they're using it as something else for their session.(12-11-2017, 06:30 PM)Therion The Witch Wrote: *snip*
Well the issue with that is (not that I agree with this response) that not every RP session that happens is considered 'open' and that some people are happy to use locations in the game as private spaces just as a type of 'setting placeholder'. For example, the Pearl Lane is really the only area in the game (among one or two others) that fit the 'shady alley' setting. I personally know people who have used it as such without it actually being the Pearl Lane. I mean, I think that's pretty fair? Some people really like to have a visual setting to stoke their RP creativity. If they didn't, we wouldn't need to RP in the game at all, really.
The point is, you never know the circumstances of an RP session unless you ask and talk to the RPers. That's the challenge with playing any sort of subterfugal character. You're always going to need OOC permission, but you also have to keep it interesting. Outside of that, you'll have to rely on OOC trust that the other person wants the same things out of the experience so you can do what you trying to do, and that's in very short supply when it comes to walkups or RPing with strangers.
Probably a bad metaphor but it's all I can think of. It'd be like going to Walmart and telling people openly around you that you're actually in K-mart. While those with you as a group understand it, everyone else that you're telling publicly or that hears will be confused to what's even going on.
The way I see it, anyone who uses /s chat openly and has a tag on (or clearly are IC).... their chat can be used/taken as it was said. They're IC the moment they decide they are, and their actions/chat reflect their char and interact with the world around them. If they weren't already aware of this, they wouldn't be using /s chat to begin with because it would defeat the point. The only ruling I'd go about with spying is just not to use anything your char doesn't actually hear ICly or it'll be one of those OOC interactions that won't be fun. Like if your character has left the building or area ICly and you just wanted to stay/watch OOCly, means you shouldn't be using any context as if your character heard it ICly, regardless if you read it OOCly.
In any case, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Most RP'ers like being immersed ICly, so they'll probably feel more complimented at the fact your char is using context from their own chars. Worst case scenario if things aren't panning out well, you can OOCly apologize and say your char is a spy.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Kieron Lohengrin - 12-17-2017
(12-14-2017, 10:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Writing in public and not wanting people to join you isn't roleplay. It's masturbating.
^ this
(12-15-2017, 11:45 AM)rinlai Wrote: To your concerns about people being picky Ic and not wanting others to join into their public scene, I'd say your best response is to leave them alone and not interact--as a person who holds those views will likely be a very rude RP'er. In my opinion, the adherence of IC stands above OOC communication, and not breaking that immersion is something I take somewhat seriously. You are right, there are /many/ people who will change their behavior based on what you communicate with them, because a majority of more criminal RP'ers want to get away with what they do wrong, so my best advice is as I stated above--keep as much as you can Ic and just play it out as it would progress should the world be reality. If they speak in public, they can be heard in public, if they do crimes in public, they can be held accountable by witnesses, and if they rely on OOC boundaries to protect their IC actions--they're a rude RP'er, and I'd find others to interact with at that point.
^ also this
When you behave IC in /say you're not running a "private D&D campaign," you're participating in a world that others also inhabit. Other players aren't background NPCs for your benefit.
Ostensibly private RP belongs in private channels. It's weird that ERPers of all people get this yet many others still don't.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Maril - 12-17-2017
I am in camp if you spill your guts in the quicksand/(Public area of your choice) about your evil misdoings, please count on it being heard. The only cases where I'll disregard something happening in that nature is if people actively and continuously point out in emotes or in ye olde *low* fronters that the conversation that is taking place is below normal earshot hearing levels.Â
It is nice of you to toss an emote, but in my opinion if you're in a public place like say Pearl Lane, and you walk up, you have your RP tag on and you stop within earshot of a conversation then you shouldn't strictly have to - Just following wysiwyg, you are there and they should (if they want to of course, people do whatever) count on that being a thing that happens. If you run up because you were OOC, see people being IC, then switch to walkmode and put on your RP tag - That's a situation where I'd throw an emote because there needs to be an establishment of how your character presumably didn't just appear out of thin air. If you're using any extra measures for being unseen, like magic or whichever, emote emote emote. And be prepared to get busted because of those extra measures, you will never be 100% invisible because other, especially spellcasting characters, might notice your aether hanging about.Â
What I myself can be annoyed with when it comes to people eavesdropping, spying and so on, is that sometimes I find people take the range of hearing to an unreasonable point. If you sit in a crowded tavern with 20 other people, just as the chatspam gets intense, you shouldn't actually count on your character being able to follow a conversation across the room. I also firmly disagree with the notion that you can hear across floors in a house because the dev team at final never asked themselves if the say-range should have a height limit, and that is no matter which race's super-hearing you're using. And if that is something of an overpowered skill your character has; again, emote for it.Â
And then if you want to use whatever information you spied up, ask for permissions before consequences come-a-knocking on their doors. Though that is, as I see it, really just common courtesy to do towards anyone you don't know and who might not expect Bad Things to happen out of the blue coming from yourself. I wouldn't waste too much time on people who get antsy about their plot-details being picked up on and acted on because they spoke of them in super public areas, better just to leave them be. You can still use what you heard but refer to it as coming from some sort of NPC instead, if you for example are into rumor-brokering.Â
/puts two gil in a box
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Edric W. - 12-17-2017
Imagine if someone did the same thing you're about to do to you. If it'd make you think "Wow, what a prick." or "Oh piss off would you?", or anything in that vein, don't do it. Or do, if you don't mind being seen as a bit of a knob-jockey.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - ExAtomos - 12-18-2017
We've paddled this boat before!
I am firmly in the camp of "if you RP in a public area, the public can overhear". Same as if you were in Walmart and talking out loud about robbing the place. Someone will go alert the security guard.
I also sincerely wish we had another chat channel that was a smaller zone than /say, but not as private as /tell. A true whisper that could only be heard if you are right next to the speakers.
If someone eavesdrops on a convo of mine without my knowledge and uses it against me, I'll be more annoyed than anything... cause I've been caught. My bad for yakking in public. If someone sends a /tell that they are dropping some eaves, I reflexively change how I rp. I legit can't help it. Either I think that the watcher deserves to be entertained or I go into defensive mode and hide more than I would if I thought I wasn't being watched.
I do hedge things a lot when rping in public by using emotes like /em pitches his voice low enough to only be heard by <t>. If someone is icly listening in, it is much harder for them to not godmode by saying they heard everything later on (magitek devices notwithstanding of course. lol.) Can they oocly see it and maybe use the info for an unrelated ic hook later on? Sure!
In the open world, far from the crowds, it's also a hell of a lot harder to actually hide your spying character. Good luck in the Azim Steppes, for example. xD
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Faye - 12-18-2017
(12-17-2017, 04:40 AM)Mermaid Wrote: If I post a thread in a public forum and clearly label it as closed does that mean you should be able to jump in? The forum is public and everyone can see it, after all.
I don't really think that's an accurate metaphor, though? It's more along the lines of, what if you made a thread on a public forum and didn't clearly label it as closed in a community where such threads are typically understood/assumed to be open, and then proceeded to exclude or ignore anyone else who posted, or get angry with them, or message them OOC to tell them they can't be involved because it's private, etc.? /Say and /em and open world RP are generally fair game. It's assumed that if your avatar is standing there and you are posting in open chat there, your character is physically there in the world, and therefore approachable because they are, well, a part of the world all our characters are sharing and seeing. That's the draw of in-game MMO RP after all--that we have a complete little immersive IC universe here. If people want to have closed RP's in public channels, that's totally fine, but if others are gonna see them as standoffish, or rude, or weird because of it, I think the onus is on them to accept that for going against the norm and bringing out candy they're not going to share with the whole class.
More related to the topic, I think Maril said it all best and I don't want to be too repetitive, but imo, anything in public RP that a character could believably hear is fair game. This is a somewhat unpopular opinion, however, so if you want to avoid drama, it may be better to check OOC first. Yes, some people will metagame with that knowledge, sadly, but you have to ask yourself if those are the people you want to be role-playing with, anyway.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Mermaid - 12-19-2017
(12-18-2017, 07:49 PM)Faye Wrote:(12-17-2017, 04:40 AM)Mermaid Wrote: If I post a thread in a public forum and clearly label it as closed does that mean you should be able to jump in? The forum is public and everyone can see it, after all.
I don't really think that's an accurate metaphor, though? It's more along the lines of, what if you made a thread on a public forum and didn't clearly label it as closed in a community where such threads are typically understood/assumed to be open, and then proceeded to exclude or ignore anyone else who posted, or get angry with them, or message them OOC to tell them they can't be involved because it's private, etc.? /Say and /em and open world RP are generally fair game. It's assumed that if your avatar is standing there and you are posting in open chat there, your character is physically there in the world, and therefore approachable because they are, well, a part of the world all our characters are sharing and seeing. That's the draw of in-game MMO RP after all--that we have a complete little immersive IC universe here. If people want to have closed RP's in public channels, that's totally fine, but if others are gonna see them as standoffish, or rude, or weird because of it, I think the onus is on them to accept that for going against the norm and bringing out candy they're not going to share with the whole class.
I guess that's fair since my example clearly had a tool to label. The point was really just to show examples where something being public didn't mean it had to be open for anyone. Really, it's the open to anyone part that bothers me. The part where simply saying no means you're "rude" or "standoffish" without people stopping to think you might have your reasons.
Things like spying, eavesdropping, and blackmailing can be extremely sensitive. Heck, anything potentially leading to conflict can be sensitive. I've dealt with my share of bad RPers (bad players in many cases) so that's not the sort of thing I'd want just anyone dropping on me without even asking. In any sort of conflict, I want to see you're not the sort of person to get pissy if things don't go the way you want (I have met too many of these people) before I engage in it.
Most of the RPing I've done in the past has had to be consented to in some way or another. The forum stuff I did ages ago, for example, often required you to fill out a profile for your character and submit it to the person who made the thread for approval. This meant the characters involved usually fit the setting decently well and didn't have ridiculously powerful abilities. So this whole 'I can do any kind of interaction with any character without consent' comes off as a little scary to me.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - waylander13 - 12-19-2017
Just don't do it. Don't RP as a spy, people are too pissy to handle it.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Faye - 12-19-2017
(12-19-2017, 03:32 AM)Mermaid Wrote: snip
Personally, I'd rather take the "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" approach than assume the worst up front and make others prove themselves otherwise to me before there's allowed to be any sort of IC conflict. Conflict is what fuels stories and while that conflict doesn't necessarily have to be with other player characters, that's a facet that's unique to role-play and worth exploring to most people. I understand it can be hard to gauge reactions sometimes and that some characters or the role-players behind them can be unpredictable, but I don't believe it's fair to do something that could likely cause conflict (talking about sensitive information, committing a crime, doing something insulting to other characters, etc.), but then refuse to accept any consequences or let the RP flow in its logical direction because of a desire to avoid said conflict.
There are plenty of places someone could go to RP these things undisturbed, be it a personal house or FC house, or RPing in a linkshell or party chat, or even RPing out of game as many people do. Or just continue to RP in public but leave out the bits that are likely going to lead to outcomes you don't like. You don't have to RP with everyone, but having a few exclusions is different from closing off your public RP to strangers altogether. Some people just don't mesh, be it for personal reasons or just conflicting RP styles, and it's okay to avoid those people for you, but yes, I do think it's 100% rude to RP in public yet consider it to be a closed RP, or for someone to exclude anyone from joining if they are not doing it in exactly the way they want despite their approach being appropriate or even expected.
If someone wants to start conflict with my character and I think the prospects look grim for their character and they might not to take it well OOC, I shoot them a message about it OOC. If you think the RP might be approaching an iffy situation, you can reach out to the other person rather than expecting them to do it first. No one can know upfront what you are or aren't comfortable with, and while it never hurts to ask, something as mundane as eavesdropping on things that could be realistically heard by another character isn't something I feel should need them to check with you beforehand. You don't have to ignore people or make them prove themselves to you beforehand to avoid a potential bad situation that might never occur, you can just excuse yourself from the bad situation if and when it does happen. The great thing about RP and the internet in general is you can just walk away at any moment, retcon, blacklist if you have to.
Personally, I think it's better to deal with things as they happen rather than become aloof to avoid the possibility of them. It's a problem I think is rampant in MMO RP communities. Closing ourselves off for fear of other RPers being "bad" is how we get reputations for being clique-ish, alienating, and rude when we primarily RP in private housing or when we rebuke people trying to join in when we RP in public. Getting defensive with anyone we feel is not a "real" role-player and therefore may be a "troll" is how we get a reputation for being sensitive, dramatic, and socially inept. Ironically, we drag down the community with our paranoia of being hurt by other people in the community.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Mermaid - 12-19-2017
(12-19-2017, 03:57 PM)Faye Wrote: Personally, I'd rather take the "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" approach than assume the worst up front and make others prove themselves otherwise to me before there's allowed to be any sort of IC conflict. Conflict is what fuels stories and while that conflict doesn't necessarily have to be with other player characters, that's a facet that's unique to role-play and worth exploring to most people. I understand it can be hard to gauge reactions sometimes and that some characters or the role-players behind them can be unpredictable, but I don't believe it's fair to do something that could likely cause conflict (talking about sensitive information, committing a crime, doing something insulting to other characters, etc.), but then refuse to accept any consequences or let the RP flow in its logical direction because of a desire to avoid said conflict.
-Cut-
If someone wants to start conflict with my character and I think the prospects look grim for their character and they might not to take it well OOC, I shoot them a message about it OOC. If you think the RP might be approaching an iffy situation, you can reach out to the other person rather than expecting them to do it first. No one can know upfront what you are or aren't comfortable with, and while it never hurts to ask, something as mundane as eavesdropping on things that could be realistically heard by another character isn't something I feel should need them to check with you beforehand. You don't have to ignore people or make them prove themselves to you beforehand to avoid a potential bad situation that might never occur, you can just excuse yourself from the bad situation if and when it does happen. The great thing about RP and the internet in general is you can just walk away at any moment, retcon, blacklist if you have to.
-Cut-
I had a feeling my potentially poor wording would be misconstrued in exactly this way if I didn't specify. I opted not to for feeling I was being too wordy or explaining the wrong things.
I usually do give everyone a chance without anyone needing to prove anything to me. When it comes to conflict, however, I want a chance to at least skim your character's wiki or Tumblr bio/info/history/backstory first. I'm going to paraphrase here but over the years I have seen the following:
- A sniper who never misses. This was a sniper with a gun, by the way, not some Robin Hood wanting to win every archery contest.
- The most powerful mage in the world. This was their setting but this was their PC not an NPC or villain.
- A character in their early 20s who was well-versed in every known type of magic. The setting stated that some of these types of magic were rare or unique to certain parts of the world.
- A character who was a good enough fighter that they never lost. They were literally saying if you fought them they wouldn't lose.
RE: Spying In Character: Communication is Key? - Warren Castille - 12-19-2017
(12-19-2017, 07:32 PM)Mermaid Wrote: [*]A sniper who never misses. This was a sniper with a gun, by the way, not some Robin Hood wanting to win every archery contest.
[*]The most powerful mage in the world. This was their setting but this was their PC not an NPC or villain.
[*]A character in their early 20s who was well-versed in every known type of magic. The setting stated that some of these types of magic were rare or unique to certain parts of the world.
[*]A character who was a good enough fighter that they never lost. They were literally saying if you fought them they wouldn't lose.
Welcome to roleplaying in general, friend. This sort of stuff pops up in every setting, every game, every world, across anything that is open to the public.
The trick is to just get into the thick of it and eventually learn who to encourage and who to avoid. XIV has its share of characters both good and bad, cool and ugly. It's a give and take thing: You can sure cut off the entire community if you want and just put yourself on a pedestal (universal you, not you, Mermaid) but that just means you're potentially missing out on a lot of cool people who'd otherwise want to hop in.
Like all hobbies, roleplaying requires a degree of work to get your maximum return. Some people are content to never do the work, but those people are usually the ones bitching about how there's nothing to do, no one to talk to, or how dead a seemingly populated server is.
Edit: In terms of people who "look problematic" do you think you're able to make that kind of snap judgment in a matter of short moments in a crowded place?