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+--- Thread: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities (/showthread.php?tid=2198)
Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - sugarfrosted - 06-16-2013
Hey everyone, so I just discussed this briefly about magic for DoW's and now I'm just wondering what you guys think about not having a larger pool of abilities that can be used by other classes.
I think SE did this to make future jobs more relevant (such as a red mage, perhaps?).
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - FreelanceWizard - 06-16-2013
I put in some feedback on the beta test forums to request that they expand the pool of cross-class abilities. It'd be nice to have the extra freedom and it would address some inequities in the current system (DoW abilities are largely useless for DoM, THM can use all of CNJ but CNJ can use hardly any of THM, etc.).
Personally, I'd like to see Red Mage appear in a better, more unique form than "I can use white and black magic and a sword." I'd also like to see it put off in favor of classes that have a more unique flavor, such as Blue Mage, Thief, Ninja, Musketeer (which is extremely in keeping with FFXIV's lore), and the like.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
As for my thoughts on a Red Mage, I would prefer that class to almost feel like a spell sword! Focusing on enhancing your sword to have extra perks such has extra Fire damage on hit, or making it so you can store cure for an insta-cast after a couple hits and storing energy. I don't even care if they can wear heavy armor or not. Just my 2 cents.
About the cross-class, I agree. I've wanted a War that is able to use Black Magic, but the restrictions force you to pick and chose, which is sad. I do understand though, because I feel it would largely make some classes useless as a main. ((Whm maybe would become useless, as everyone and their mother would sub this))
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Aysun - 06-16-2013
When the game came out, there was an over-abundance of cross-class usable abilities. As a result, every class could do certain things, and there was very little identity for the classes (need for a healer, for example, because every class could heal itself in some way). The introduction of jobs and restriction of cross-class abilities has made each class/job have identity, a use, etc, again, which I for one am thankful for.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
(06-16-2013, 04:49 PM)Aysun Wrote: When the game came out, there was an over-abundance of cross-class usable abilities. As a result, every class could do certain things, and there was very little identity for the classes (need for a healer, for example, because every class could heal itself in some way). The introduction of jobs and restriction of cross-class abilities has made each class/job have identity, a use, etc, again, which I for one am thankful for.I see your point completely. Warriors healing themselves and using protect would make them very strong and have no need for a healer.
What I do wish for though, is maybe bonus slots (1 or 2 of them) in which you can store 1 to 2 abilities from another class and use it. One per other class imo. (so no cure/protect)
Example: I have a Warrior but I would like some ranged damage with fire and maybe protect. In this case, yes more survivability, but not enough to not need a dedicated healer.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - FreelanceWizard - 06-16-2013
The DoWs can largely use Cure and Protect, though, but it's at a significant penalty to magic power. That, I think, should be the balance; cross-class skills are much less effective than they are in their original class. That way, there's still a need for a full class for dungeons and other tough party situations, but solo or in small groups doing light content (leves and such), it's a differentiator.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - sugarfrosted - 06-16-2013
(06-16-2013, 05:05 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: The DoWs can largely use Cure and Protect, though, but it's at a significant penalty to magic power. That, I think, should be the balance; cross-class skills are much less effective than they are in their original class. That way, there's still a need for a full class for dungeons and other tough party situations, but solo or in small groups doing light content (leves and such), it's a differentiator.
Yeah, I was hoping for something more like this. I don't need my lancer to be as good as a black mage at casting blizzard, I just wanted some customization.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Folken - 06-18-2013
In the end, it comes down to the fact that SE wants classes to feel unique to themselves. It's important for each one to have it's own identity, especially when you bring in those iconic Final Fantasy Jobs.
From a gameplay point of view, more options is generally always better. Having freedoms to build your own classes is great. But that's not something FFXIV is looking to do. Each of their classes and jobs fulfill a certain aspect.
I'm ok with what we currently have available to us. I can cross-class very useful skills onto my Marauder or Gladiator. Protect, cure, Second-wind. These things make me unstoppable in solo content, which is what I play the most often.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Orlog - 06-18-2013
I'm honestly very disappointed in the lack of cross class abilities. I personally loved it when we could choose whatever ability we wanted to essentially make whatever kind of class we wanted. I understand that people want to keep the uniqueness in a class, but this only really seems to come up when trying to keep to the trinity of MMOs (Healer, DD, tank) and I'm personally all for just out right getting rid of those archetypes.
I do think we should keep in mind that when using abilities from another class, there was always a bit of a downside to it, being that the ability just wasn't as potent as it was on the original class. And of course, you didn't have the resources that the original class had (mostly in MP if you wanted to use magic on a non-magic class). This added another element of really having to manage what little you had and make every cast really count. It was mostly left up to if the player could actually handle it or not. And to be honest... most people couldn't. Even when the option for using whatever ability you wanted was available, most people just ended up using just what what intended for the class anyway.
If just sucks that they took it away from those of us who really utilized making our own classes to suit our needs, to suit those who prefer to be guided in the way of cross class abilities.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Caysen - 06-18-2013
I personally like that there's a limited availability of cross-class skills. I like having specific job roles.
A certain other MMO on the market right now did away with party roles almost entirely, instead giving every class the ability to do everything to some degree. All classes had offensive, defensive, healing and support abilities. Originally it was a selling point, you weren't completely boned if you couldn't find a healer or a tank. You could still manage. But (in my opinion at least), they ended up creating a game in which anyone of any class could solo their way through the whole thing. The only time you needed a party was for dungeons, and even then configuration didn't matter, you just took anyone regardless of class, zerged the whole thing and only paid attention to healing yourself.
After playing that for 6 months I found that I really missed defined job roles and the typical 'holy trinity'. I missed the strategy of forming a balanced party and having a plan, rather than just zerging as hard as possible. I missed the camaraderie of relying on others and being relied upon.
It feels great to be moving back to the balanced party dynamic.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Orlog - 06-18-2013
(06-18-2013, 08:36 PM)Caysen Wrote: After playing that for 6 months I found that I really missed defined job roles and the typical 'holy trinity'. I missed the strategy of forming a balanced party and having a plan, rather than just zerging as hard as possible. I missed the camaraderie of relying on others and being relied upon.
It's understandable why people enjoy the trinity, but I just wanted to point out one specific thing. I'm not entirely sure where the "zerging" is coming from with having cross class abilities? In my experience with the situation, the same amount of planning for a party is still needed, and in some sense you still need a tank, DD, healer. But, with cross class abilities, it takes a lot of the stress off of each class. What's that you say? The tank can heal itself? The healer can withstand a couple of hits and contribute to the damage pool without having to JUST stick to healing?
Keep in mind, these added abilities don't outright replace the originals. Said tank might be able to touch themselves up every now and again, but still needs a healer of some sort of keep most of their health up. Said healer might be able to take more hits and put out more damage, but it's not on par with those who have a core class of a tank and a DD.
I don't know. Maybe I'm one of the few, but I get very bored with a class that's a one trick pony. Just my take on the matter!
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Azthran - 06-18-2013
I can almost see cross class abilities being similar to talent trees in other games. A way to tweak your character for different situations be it solo or group play and also to add a bit of customization. I'm fine with a lack of cross class abilities though as it reminds me of FFXI and their subjob system a bit, get some perks from another class but didn't let you have access to everything.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Caysen - 06-18-2013
I think you may have read my post to be a bit more extreme then I intended it to be. The example I was using is kind of an severe one.
I like FFXIV's system as it is now. I think it's great that some skills are cross-class, like Cure, but with a penalty. The tank should be able to heal themselves some, to take some pressure off the healer (Paladin's could heal in XI), but they should never have the same healing capability of a White Mage with Cure IIIs. And Mages should be able to protect themselves some just in case (we're squishy), but should not have so much defensive capability that they have no need for a good tank at all. Limited cross-class skills is good. None is bad. Too many is also bad.
My extreme reference was what happens when every job can do everything just as well as every other job. My heavily armored melee character in that game could heal herself better than any mage could, and many mage characters could survive ridiculously longer than they should have. This resulted in zergs, not parties.
RE: Your opinions on a lack of cross-class abilities - Myavar - 06-18-2013
I'm familiar with the game Caysen is talking about, and I played it for a very long time before giving it up. The lack of the trinity, and everyone having their self sufficient capacities, resulted in zergs through dungeons with very little team work. I played an archer in that game as well, and managed to solo some packs of mobs, and even a boss (as a caster) when my party died because of those "utility" abilities. I'm not saying FFXIV:ARR is doing this, just what I perceived  during my time playing this particular game.
Personally I haven't messed with the cross class abilities of 2.0, but in 1.0 our options were plenty. Those options, however, didn't always result in making one's role in a team more effective or efficient. As an archer I was able to watch combat from a mid to long range vantage point, and I would see many of my teammates making very odd decisions not just with what they were using, but with what they would choose to ignore because "It looks cool". We weren't dying, and they were having fun, so there wasn't always any real harm in playing around.
As Caysen also mentioned; Limited cross-class skills is good. None is bad. Too many is also bad. SE's goal seems to be to generate camaraderie via forms of necessity and the removal of certain types of competition. We have our "holy trinity" of roles, class designs that are kept unique with limited branches into other classes, and the removal of the familiar FFXI exp grind/claim system means players no longer fall asleep while leveling or go into a rage because their targets are getting stolen.
There's also the addition of future classes and/or jobs. With the list of possible additions we'd be looking at a very saturated pool of abilities with overwhelming results without those abilities being treated more uniquely.
I really liked what I saw in the first weekend of Phase 3 (Besides animations. Whoah those animations.), and I've got high hopes for the mid to high level content.