Hydaelyn Role-Players
Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: Lore Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=49)
+--- Thread: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view (/showthread.php?tid=2961)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - allgivenover - 02-22-2014

(02-22-2014, 02:51 PM)Ildur Wrote: Deciding that their morality must be similar to certain animals is not only purely speculative fiction, but also arbitrary.

This extrapolation speaks only about the likelihood of generalized mating behavior based off what we know of Miqo'te from the canon tribal lore. It says nothing about individual behavior or the wider arc of morality beyond mating habits because it's entirely unnecessary to state the plainly obvious.

(07-20-2013, 05:10 AM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: Politics and sociology are not my fields of expertise, so there is plenty of room for these systems to be complicated by morality and ethics.  It is important to realize, however, that because these mating structures are historically normal to the Miqo’te, their perception of morality and ethics in regards to family and sexuality will differ from the typically monogamous viewpoint of modern human society on Earth.

Why is it unnecessary? There is more than enough in game to determine that Miqo'te are certainly capable of compassion and cruelty both, there's very little reason to include it in a discussion focused exclusively on extrapolating mating habits through logical deduction of information provided by the canon lore and real world biology.

I'm actually not sure what your primary disagreement is Ildur, as you have not provided any particular lore as evidence to discredit this model. You've only gone on about how this one is incomplete because it doesn't consider something that it had no intention to address to begin with - as it is plainly obvious to anyone that spends a few minutes talking to NPCs that Miqo'te are capable of reason and are not simple animals.

Is it the idea that a fresh Nunh might off the old Nunh's offspring? Then consider that this is only one small part of the model, and it being wrong does not discredit the rest of it. Is it that you feel that it reduces Miqo'te to a fanservice race? Then your gripe is with Square Enix and their design.

If you can provide an alternate model that adequately explains how Miqo'te mating habits work in a traditional/tribal lifestyle - again, this is only about tribal traditions, not about city Miqo'te or adventurer individuals - while also properly acknowledging the canon lore of the Tia/Nunh "right to breed" dynamic, the scarcity of males, the danger that a Nunh or would be Nunh faces during a challenge, the reality that Keepers also have breeding males (which lends some credence to the promiscuity model), and the promiscuous nature of many Miqo'te NPCs portrayed in game (again, not all of them), then please submit that model with your own reasoning and the basis for extrapolation. If it makes more sense than this model I and others will likely adopt it without hesitation.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Norna - 02-22-2014

Here's a question: Nunh are breeding males. Tia aren't. Would it be possible that women and Tia are traditionally allowed to have as much sex as they want just as long as they don't breed/have children? 'Cause there's probably birth control herbs that haven't been used to extinction around somewhere. Yeah, I'm theorizing about loopholes due to word choice, but it would be interesting if this was the case.

By the way, I cannot see a Nunh offing any other male's children by way of tradition (maybe individual nunhs are abusive enough, but not regular society allows it). That's a pretty big part of humanity, and while parents have killed children to get ahead/belief that the child is better off dead, I cannot see it in Miqo'te. Particularly since one of the most maternal women in the series is a Seeker of the Sun (F'lhaminn), and then there's how H'naanza will hold the hand of insecure, not particularly talented, students (granted, both are moon/sun mixes living in the city-states). But even in the Drake tribal life [which seems to have a male leadership to boot!] the Tias take turns raising their younger tribemates (even when they have drastically different opinions of how to go about it), which is unlikely in a sapient society that expects one of them to grow up and kill them, should they be too young to breed.

On the fanservice thing, I think S-E started out with making Moon Keepers matriarchal drows fanservice race, while making the Sun Seekers the patriarchal, Arabian Nights Fantasy harem fanservice thing. Then they realized the Unfortunate Implications and doctored the lore, but were still attached to it and therefore lore became disjointed (at this point, I see Moon Keepers as more wolfish [like, actual wolves and not pop-culture alpha-beta-omega wolves], and Sun Seekers lionish [some of the more obvious parallels], with a pinch of drow/harem thrown in, yet still essentially human).

In either case, even if they come from the same tribes, they seem to have a wide range of lifestyles (pirate/scholar from the Jaguars, Ul'dah's songstress/storm officers from the Bears, hot springs hostess?/pirate/customs agent? from the Antelopes), so I think that their morality/society would essentially be human, since they adapt so well to living with everyone else (also, we must consider that Miqo'te are welcomed by the other races, which would be unlikely if they practiced child-killings on a societal scale, or anything else that would remove them from humanity to a point that the other races become uncomfortable).

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Sounsyy - 02-22-2014

(02-22-2014, 04:28 PM)Norna Wrote: In either case, even if they come from the same tribes, they seem to have a wide range of lifestyles (pirate/scholar from the Jaguars, Ul'dah's songstress/storm officers from the Bears, hot springs hostess?/pirate/customs agent? from the Antelopes), so I think that their morality/society would essentially be human, since they adapt so well to living with everyone else (also, we must consider that Miqo'te are welcomed by the other races, which would be unlikely if they practiced child-killings on a societal scale, or anything else that would remove them from humanity to a point that the other races become uncomfortable).

Gonna be playing devil's advocate here, because I find this whole topic fascinating on both sides. Personally, I don't believe Nunh's would kill previously defeated Nunh's children on a "global-norm" scale. But I definitely can't discount the likelihood that maybe a few Nunh's or even select tribes might. Each tribe is different as has been pointed out. It's not impossible to believe that some of the more warrior-like tribes or tribes containing a large enough population of Tias attempting to become Nunhs might indulge in knocking off some competition. Why not? Humans, historically those in royal families, do it all the time. Not just lions.

Anyways, back on the topic of Miqo'te adapting their societal norms to accommodate/appease the other sentient races' societal norms. If we are speaking of tribal miqo'te (which is what the OP was all about) we have a lot of Lore backing up the fact that many of them don't conform to societies' expectations and many tribes revel in their being isolationists. 

The Drake Tribe of Seekers in the Sagolii, for example, have lived in near complete isolation for many years after their village ceased being a trade route. It wasn't until Belah'dian ruins were found deep in the Sagolii that merchants and miners and the like started revisiting their home. If you speak with the Miqo'te, they are quite mistrustful of outsiders and don't want anything to do with outsiders' influence upon their Tribe.

Another example would be the Keepers of the Moon families who poach South Shroud. It's stated time and again that they are ostracized from Gridanian society because they refuse to give up their Hunter/Gatherer roots. Getting away from Miqo'te for a brief moment, we can look at the schism between Duskwight and Wildwood cultures. There's a great lack of cultural intermingling there as well.

Another thing I'd like to challenge is this "global society" we all keep referencing. Eorzea is not a society or a culture. It's a place, home to a wide range of societies and cultures. We have a xenophobic society that populates Gridania. Right next door, we also have a separate society of Keeper Miqo'te living in the South Shroud that embrace a Hunter/Gatherer/Poacher culture that is given to be consistent with traditional Keeper Miqo'te values - Values that may or may not be influenced by their biology/genetics.

In favor of the Biology viewpoint, let's look at the Drake Tribe: a society who's culture revolves around hunting and mating. Talk to every female miqo'te in Forgotten Springs. Their two topics of conversation are "look what I just killed!" and "so when is your next 'coupling'?" This goes right in line with Myxie's OP. And it's not that we're saying the Drake Tribe isn't sentient; they are a sentient race capable of rational thought. It's just their particular culture's rational thought revolves around their more primal or "animalistic" desires and basic needs of survival. 

In favor of the argument against biology being the sole motivator of societal norms, let's look at F'lhammin. She has no combative inclinations. She's a dancer/songstress. And as far as mating goes, she makes it quite clear that she is still hung up on her one love, Niellefresne, who has been dead 15 years now. Is F'lhammin a lone exception to this rule? Or can we make the jump and say the Bear Tribe culture accepts monogamist values in their society? We have no black and white lore telling us yes or no, and probably never will. The knowledge that this dynamic might exist as canon in Bear Tribe culture is hardly useless to someone who might wish to RP a monogamist character from the Bear tribe. 

But when we say things like "society won't accept baby-killers" or "they're all 'humans' so they all have the same ethics and morals we do" - what society are we talking about? We have lore about Hellsguard Roegadyn ditching their third and fourth kids to the wild because they can't support them. Yet we don't see Eorzean citizens ostracizing Hellsguardian culture en mass. Instead of saying this is useless information, think instead of how this may influence a Keeper of the Moon's perception of the Hellsguard race. Keepers are a highly motherly society who biologically can't seem to birth enough male offspring. Their culture may find Hellsguardians ditching baby boys left and right as immoral. This is something I'd like to call lore-informed biology influencing a sentient culture's beliefs. Something to play with if you so desired.


TL;DR
What I've tried to illustrate in this post is that while Myxie's (amazing) post may not be the end-all-be-all for Miqo'te's cultural influences, it most certainly provides at least one solid avenue in which to explore and explain why Miqo'te tribes may behave in certain ways. She admits it's not canon, but her extrapolation of the lore is no less creative and no more useless than what the average RPer skims from the lore to build their own character's values, history, and story arc. Instead of bashing the post for being exactly what the title say it is ("Miqo'te Mating Strategies Explored: a Biologist's Point of View") take this post and make a study to compliment it: "Miqo'te Tribal Societies Explored: The Effects of Racial and Cultural Integration on Tribe Values." All anyone is doing by bashing the OP is stifling the chance others will step up to publish alternative creative views on this topic and related ones.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - synaesthetic - 02-22-2014

Actually I just think a lot of miqo'te roleplayers are tired of the constant "catgirl" associations. I didn't pick miqo'te for my character because I wanted to be a kawaii desu uguu animu nekomimi. I didn't pick miqo'te for my character because I wanted to be an instinct-driven, barely-sentient beast-person.

For IC purposes I picked miqo'te because the looks and lore set them apart from hyur in a sort of small, ethereal, fey-like quality that is generally filled by elves in most fantasy, but isn't here because elezen have very different qualities than most elves (they're also huge). For OOC purposes I picked miqo'te because they have the best animations and (other than /pose, which clearly the best /pose is male highlander) the best emotes.

None of this has anything to do with cats, and a lot of us are tired of miqo'te being viewed as cats when they are not cats. Miqo'te are miqo'te. They are near-human sentient beings with (very) vaguely beastly features. The ears don't even look like cat ears, or any extant animal's ears; they look like miqo ears, and that's what they are.

I, and many other roleplayers, don't understand why we have to equivocate miqo'te to anything else. It's only miqo'te, too. Lalafell aren't equivocated. Roegadyn aren't equivocated. Elezen aren't equivocated. So why are miqo'te? Because the animators gave them a kawaii desu uguu animu nekomimi /pose emote? Because there's that "meow" character that acts or speaks nothing like any other miqo'te NPC in the entire game?

tl;dr version: Miqo are miqo. They aren't cats. They're people with fuzzy ears on the tops of their heads and tails. Trying to constantly equivocate them to cats is just encouraging the kawaii desu uguu animu nekomimi crowd. Undecided

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Norna - 02-22-2014

(02-22-2014, 07:32 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: But when we say things like "society won't accept baby-killers" or "they're all 'humans' so they all have the same ethics and morals we do" - what society are we talking about?
General human societies that does not practice infanticide due to paternal lineages.

The reason why I pointed out that Miqo'te are generally accepted, and therefore unlikely to participate in large-scale infanticide, is because RL humanity has a history of hating on "other people", which is what I use for this theory/supposition.

Miqo'te already have an extra limb to differentiate themselves, and they came to Eorzea relatively late and started to compete over prey. If they showed any widespread inclination to kill (and maybe even eat, going by the lion-centric theory) their offspring just because of paternity, the other races would have the perfect excuse to eradicate the Miqo'te together and then mistreat the surviving remnants (and then go back to hating each other).

On your Hellsguard point: It is very different (cultural PR speaking) for a tribe in a harsh environment casting out "extra" children (who seem to be old enough to manage to get to the city-states) because they cannot support them (they might even be pitied for having to make the choice), compared to simply killing children because they had another father.

Isn't it sort of pointed out that the Coeurlclaws actively work against integration? I mean, they choose the same sort of lifestyle as the Redbellies in the same area, and the only reason why Duskwights and Wildwoods separated was because the Duskwights refused to integrate with outsiders. (Yet, from what I've heard, Coeurlclaws somehow managed to get a King of all things a matriarchal, traditionalist clan could do. Dazed This is what I mean when I say that S-E couldn't commit to their first inspiration of the lore or to rehab it to a more acceptable standard, so contradictions crop up all the time.)

I should also point out that the Drake tribe, despite no longer having all the merchants around and with a distrust of strangers, still keep and maintain an aetheryte, suggesting that while they are protective of their way of life, they seem to accept having adventurers around (maybe because of their nunh?), and the adventurers in turn, while they might find them strange, does not find them "other" or off-putting enough to make a thing out of it.

TL;DR: Humanity is merciless if you're considered "other" in even the smallest ways and not be able to arouse pity. If you start doing things they find morally abhorrent on top of that (just think about everyone's reaction to lion males killing and eating lion cubs, though as "mere beasts" it is tolerated as natural), even enemies might agree to work together to make you conform or destroy you, before going back to their mutual enmity. Hence, tribal/clannish Miqo'te might be considered strange, but since there is no major discrimination outside the most xenophobic areas (Gridania/Ishgard?), they would likely not break some of the largest social taboos without some NPC rallying against them (and their allowed presence in the city-states). Also, Drake tribe is toeing the line between protecting their own culture, and the changing times.

This doesn't mean that they're "just" humans with fancy ears and a tail, it just means that their culture isn't "strange" in ways that might prompt the other races to "correct" it for the greater good of humanity.

Erm, I hope I got across what I meant, because I kinda lost the plot somewhere in the middle.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Sounsyy - 02-22-2014

As I said, I agree that Miqo'te tribes more than likely would not do this on a global scale. But we can't discount the possibility that a few Nunh or even a whole tribe of Miqo'te may participate in finishing off ex-Nunhs' children, and it be completely normal to them. Foreign societies' opinions of their traditions doesn't seem like a legitimate excuse for them to stop, considering the Miqo'te societies represented in game share a common disregard for other societies' values. (Ie: Couerlclaws, Drakes, etc)

(02-22-2014, 08:35 PM)Norna Wrote: ...the other races would have the perfect excuse to eradicate the Miqo'te together and then mistreat the surviving remnants (and then go back to hating each other).
This supposes that the other races (on a large scale) have a violent opposition to this theoretical cultural norm. What if the other races aren't bothered by it? It's something that I'm sure many real life cultures would find abhorrent, but you have to remember that they aren't us. What bothers us, might not bother them. I'll use homosexuality as an example. Regardless of what anyone's personal views are on homosexuality, no one can deny that there are some populations of people in this world who think homosexuality is a terrible thing. However, in Eorzea, homosexuality is pretty commonplace and seems to be a wholly accepted practice in lore. 

(02-22-2014, 08:35 PM)Norna Wrote: ...they would likely not break some of the largest social taboos without some NPC rallying against them (and their allowed presence in the city-states).
Again, we're not given a lot of lore to accurately judge what is taboo. As was kind of my earlier point, the miqo'te tribes mostly seem to want to keep to themselves. Gridanians are seen by outsiders as snobby, racist tree huggers. Ul'dah is a cesspool of greed, sodomy, and all manner of sins. Lominsans pillage, pirate, and plunder without a second thought. Where are we drawing this baseline of what's wrong and what isn't? Whose values are we holding Miqo'te societies accountable too - the xenophobes, the vultures, or the axe-murderers?

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Norna - 02-23-2014

I'm actually arguing that no Miqo'te tribe as a "tradition" or rule practiced child killing, as evidenced that none of the other cultures show a reaction to it (Silver Blaze theory). Which means that no Miqo'te tribe or clan were influenced to stop, because they never did it to begin with. (If there are those that did, it was an individual Nunh being abusive, but not "business as usual" for the tribe.)

Or there is a mono-society of Eorzeans that either doesn't care or approve of infanticide, and thus does not show any reaction to it. Or Miqo'te, despite the large numbers being assimilated into general Eorzean society, somehow manages to keep it a secret. Neither which I find plausible (especially since the only tribe in-game allows adventurers to pop in at random through a crystal they maintain for this very purpose).

The reason why I feel that regular Eorzeans are protective of children, is because of how they treat the children in the game; F'lhaminn towards Ascilia, Gridanians towards the children in the 1.X storyline (particularly the one who tried to burn that elemental tree, if Gridanians were not protective of children, even not their own biological ones, their reaction to his actions would be very different). The church in Drybone in the 2.X storyline. The Buki brothers towards their youngest brother in 2.X thaumaturge storyline. The pugilist master taking in those Lalafells and training them. There's the marauder storyline in Limsa Lominsa. The conjurers taking care of Sylphie. The botanist quest for ingredients for candy for the orphaned children.

Really, most of the interactions between children and other NPCs in this game suggests a decidedly familiar attitude towards children from an Earth perspective.

But looping this back to biology (since it is in the title); unless the times are very bad, we have instincts that makes us protective of children (modern day example would be to help a lost child find their parents when one doesn't have the obligation to do so), which children are naturally "designed" to arouse (cuteness, high-pitched voice and so on), this is why many societies, independently of each other, are protective of children, and why Eorzea would be exceptional if none of their other cultures had protective inclinations towards children.

Which is why I would find it very, very strange if none of Eorzea did not have some sort of taboo, or strong dislike, of child killing, and thus a reaction towards ritualistic/"traditional due to paternity" child murders.

Erm, does this make sense? Because I'm pretty sleep-deprived and almost seeing double right now.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Myxie Tryxle - 02-24-2014

Kinda surprised to see this thread resurrected again. I cringe every time it happens, because I'm worried what sort of new or re-justifications will be necessary for it, but I'm glad to see some good discussion being spurred again.

(02-18-2014, 05:25 AM)XelosOne Wrote: First a brief overview of my own credentials, and I assure you though it may appear to be so, I am not trying to play the old game of online one-upsmanship with you.

I really could have used this sort of input a few months ago from someone whose credentials exceed my own. Tongue I will admit that at points I felt I was compromising my scientific viewpoint for the sake of politeness.

For example, my original stance was that there would be absolutely, 100% no chance at all of cross-breeding between the five species producing live birth offspring. But as Xenedra pointed out, the scientifically unmeticulous writers at SE decided it would be cool to have an occasional half-breed in their world, so I had to roll with the punches. Also, a lot of people got upset at the suggestion that they couldn't have their Miqo'te fall for a Hyur or an Elezen in their RP. It was never my intent to force a certain type of RP with this thread, so I backed off on that particular point.

Quote:As for the the specifics, I won't even get into the breeding process among feline species here, but Hyur males are absolutely not built correctly to "get that process going". All humor aside, speaking strictly from a scientific standpoint, the donor-recipient genetic puzzle pieces simply would not fit, and no amount of rumored lore, wishful thinking or magic could make them.

I agree 100% here, and I know the physiological differences to which you're referring. I was just trying to keep anatomical terms out of the thread, as anti-ERP protests were already a danger, and even scientific discussion of certain features raises some peoples' hackles.

Quote:I do believe Square-Enix should have done their homework on this and other issues with a bit more diligence, not only for the sake of the RP community but in order to put forward the best game possible.

This was ultimately the conclusion I came to when I finished with this discussion. Try as I might, I can't fix the scientific inconsistencies with the game's lore. By and large, the information I provided helped a lot of folks flesh out the background for their characters. Since that was my goal, I considered it a successful venture.

Quote:Kudos to you for your efforts even though we don't see 100% eye to eye.  *smiles*

Thank you for your input as well. I really appreciate it. Big Grin Chances are we see very close to the same on the science, as nothing you said I found to be contradictory.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Myxie Tryxle - 02-24-2014

(02-21-2014, 07:32 AM)Ildur Wrote: What I'm not fine with is that it ignores that Miqo'te are humans.

Pretty sure this is the problem you have with my argument. I mentioned it before in the thread, but I'll say it explicitly: I don't believe Miqo'te are humans. I don't think they should be human, and I don't want them to be human, because there's already humans in the setting, so more humans aren't needed.

To me this bias is like looking in a field and seeing a horse and a cow. Both are roughly the same size and shape with four legs, hooves on their feet, consume and digest grass, have short to medium length fur coats, and a variety of other traits that make them outwardly appear very similar. However, it's obvious that a cow is not a horse. Both are valuable farm animals, and much of their value is drawn from the ways in which they are different, rather than the ways in which they are the same.

My goal in this thread was to offer insight into ways in which Miqo'te are different from humans, because I don't think you can take a predatory feline species and evolve it into a sentient form and get the same result as you would taking a vegetarian/omnivorous primate species and evolving it to sentience. The notion that despite their obvious biological differences that Miqo'te would somehow develop the same moral and ethical ideals as humans seems exceptionally unlikely to me. It's an underlying desire or bias for familiarity on the part of the player (and in my opinion a mistake made by the SE FFXIV writers). Even within the human species, different tribal and civilized cultures can have wildly varying cultural norms, even within the same culture as it evolves over time, which is why I didn't want to get into them in the first place. I am happy though that other people wished to discuss it, despite my personal lack of interest in cultural topics, because I think it's the logical progression of the argument.

Now if you instead mean that I'm not offering the respect due a sentient species by comparing them to animals, that's just a point on which we're going to have to disagree. I have no problem comparing humans to our primate ancestors and cousins, so I have no problem comparing Miqo'te to their feline ancestors and cousins. By certain measures of success (biomass or number of individuals for example), humans are insignificant compared to insects. "Not human" in my mind does not equate to "less than human," even when considering plant or animal species.

Again, my goal was to offer a foundation of biology about Miqo'te upon which the other players could build thoughtful, thought-provoking, interesting, infuriating, heart-wrenching stories. I think a Miqo'te species that is 'not human' adds interesting possibilities for roleplaying while also making good sense biologically.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Naunet - 02-24-2014

Who says they evolved from a predatory feline?

If Titan is to be believed, we're all "sons of Man".

... Oh god, I didn't want to post in this thread again. Someone stop me. -_-;

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Myxie Tryxle - 02-24-2014

(02-24-2014, 02:47 AM)Naunet Wrote: Who says they evolved from a predatory feline?

If Titan is to be believed, we're all "sons of Man".

... Oh god, I didn't want to post in this thread again. Someone stop me. -_-;

I know what you mean. I cringe a little when I get a notification that it's back, and I wrote the darn thing.

Predatory feline because they're obviously modeled after cats (and to an extent wolves I suppose), and felines (and wolves) are predatory. I doubt we'll ever get the lore behind the natural history of the different species, or that it would be satisfactorily scientific if we did.

As for flavor text from NPCs, I don't generally take it for lore unless it's an NPC actively storytelling about world history. The whole super senses debate in the early pages showed the writers' penchant for poetic license. For all we know, Titan's opinion of all non-kobolds could be as accurate as asking a FOX News Show Host about Obama. Completely unbiased and fact-based. *cough*

Pretty sure at this point this thread will only be resplitting the same hairs it's done a few times over. For those discovering it for the first time, my advice would be to use whatever you find interesting and ignore it if it has no value for you. Gonna try to avoid posting here anymore unless something truly novel appears.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Sounsyy - 02-24-2014

(02-23-2014, 07:52 AM)Norna Wrote: Erm, does this make sense? Because I'm pretty sleep-deprived and almost seeing double right now.

Amen to sleep deprivation. No, I totally get what you're saying and I don't really disagree on any particular point. And I'm appreciative that you used in-game sources and examples. I think my argument tried to progress beyond just the whole new Nunh killing old Nunh + children thing. I feel like, if you're wanting to write that into your story, it's so easy to swing no one will dispute such a thing. There are whackos out there. 

I was more trying to get at the fact that when you look at the many many different cultures in Eorzea, it's highly unlikely that all of these cultures would have one collective act that was considered taboo across the board. If that makes sense? Miqo'te infanticide just happened to be said example used since it was already being discussed. 

____________________________
Like let's look at just the starter city-states by themselves, and we'll leave out the numerous subcultures within each of those for simplicity. In Gridania, you have a society that is actively and (for the most part) unashamedly racist and xenophobic. They discriminate against any outsider, despite their "tolerating" their presence, because the Elder Seedseer told them too. And Gridanian's have an unwarranted hatred for the Duskwights and most Keepers of the Moon. 

Slightly ironic because Gridania was only possible because Elezen and Hyur set aside their 500 year territorial wars and racial differences to unite under the Gelmorran Standard. (Their relationship is represented 500 years later on the Gridanian flag as the two wrapped Adders.) Rather than a lore mistake though, I see this more as a growth of a nation towards a way of life that the "Founding Fathers" had not intended. 

Anyways, racism and xenophobia are generally greatly frowned upon in most Earth cultures. 

In Ul'dah, I'll reference the lore behind Thaumaturge in 1.0 as an example. Thaumaturges were originally glorified morticians. But in the Lv30 quest in the Thaumaturge storyline, you find out (by way of echo) that Thaumaturges engage in a fairly common practice of stealing dead people's personal belongings and selling them back to their respective families. At the same time, pretty much blackmailing the family by saying their recently departed family member wouldn't find his/her way into Thal's Realm if they didn't. After you find this out in the Echo, your character goes to discuss this with Yayake (the Guildmaster at the time) and she pretty much brushes you off saying what this particular other thaumaturge did wasn't entirely in the wrong.

I, personally, find this practice to be disgusting. But in 1.0 it was fairly common place. 

In Limsa, cold-blooded murder is an integral part of their electoral system. I forget every how many years, but every so often the Pirate Captains have an opportunity to become Admiral of Limsa Lominsa by competing against one another in a gauntlet called the Trident. It's a no holds barred kind of race, and whoever makes it across the finish line, becomes the Admiral. In the last Trident, current Admiral, Captain Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn squared off against the favorite for the Admiralcy, Captain Hyllfyr of the Bloody Executioners. By the end of the Trident, both crews were dead and the only ones left standing were the two captains. Again, accepted practice.

In the real world, most people take issue with world leaders who kill off their opposition. 

Now, let's compare. In Gridania, it is a damnable act to commit murder that is unsanctioned by the Elementals. This includes game like antelope or wolves that are eating your face. Especially back in 1.0 when the Elementals were powerful enough to do something to every person who did it. That's why there is a conjurer who accompanies Wood Wailers when they are defending the Hedge and assist the God's Quiver with their rangings. They're there to sanction the kills and appease the Elementals. 

In Ul'dah, xenophobia and racism aren't really found anywhere. Because Ul'dah accepts anyone from anywhere who has money they can swindle. The Bloodsands would never turn you away no matter what your race or origins if you were betting on a match.

Anyways, enough examples, I think my points been made as best as I can make it. Each culture has so many different rights and wrongs, what is acceptable and what isn't, how can we possibly say with 100% assurance that each of them find one particular topic taboo to all of them. And how can we possibly say that a particular culture's beliefs (such as the Raptor Tribe Seeker Miqo'te) are right or wrong in the eyes of all other Eorzeans when we have a group of Eorzeans who are racist, a group of Eorzeans who kill their way into power, a group of Eorzeans who wipe out a whole sister civilization just because, and a group of Eorzeans who commit genocide and Salem Witch Trials in the name of their religious leader?

That's all I was getting at. And I do apologize Myxie for sorta hijacking this thread to add my rebuttle to the discussion of ethics and Miqo'te culture stuff.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - synaesthetic - 02-25-2014

Miqo'te are not obligate carnivores. They also possess morphology that is virtually identical to that of hyur midlanders, save for the presence of a tail, prominent ears on the tops of their heads and other traits such as prominent canine teeth or slitted pupils.

Simply put, miqo'te and lalafell are impossible without magical intervention. It's entirely likely that every race are aetherically-mutated offshoots of hyur or near-hyur ancestors.

That's my personal headcanon. A wizard did it. Because like most fantasy races, they make zero sense in terms of actual science.

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - Jeantremont - 02-25-2014

(02-24-2014, 10:16 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(02-23-2014, 07:52 AM)Norna Wrote: Erm, does this make sense? Because I'm pretty sleep-deprived and almost seeing
I was more trying to get at the fact that when you look at the many many different cultures in Eorzea, it's highly unlikely that all of these cultures would have one collective act that was considered taboo across the board.

To add to your post...
This is what Ishgard calls normal:

[Image: RsHz4m1.png]

[Image: dIO97JL.png]

RE: Miqo’te Mating Strategies Explored: a biologist’s point of view - synaesthetic - 02-25-2014

Are those banjo strings I hear? Big Grin