+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Thieves... people not getting it (/showthread.php?tid=3300)
Thieves... people not getting it - Momoji Momochi - 08-05-2013
Normally I avoid posts that are critical of other people's play styles, but unless the person in question wants to role play a villainous lowlife he is better off not playing his character as a thief in the traditional sense. I've seen references to Locke in multiple places here by people who are RPing thief characters or organizations that aren't in the least bit like Locke. Locke was an agent, spy, and saboteur for the Returners (resistance movement in FFVI) and greatly disliked being called a thief because that simply wasn't what he was (outside fitting the description of the Final Fantasy class of the same name). He preferred the term treasure hunter since he used his skills to help return others' property that was taken by force (via the empire), undermine the effectiveness of enemy targets, or simply acting as a real treasure hunter. Locke was never the type to steal from innocent bystanders regardless of them being well off or not. It simply wasn't something he would ever agree to do.Â
When you RP a character that is willing to target bystanders whom your character knows nothing about, then you're essentially saying your character sees others as targets to take advantage of, not people. He is completely untrustworthy as a character and is willing to commit vile criminal acts against innocents. Forgive me for saying, but anyone who finds that quality endearing has more than a few screws loose.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Dameon - 08-05-2013
What about Zidane and his troupe? They were all sorta-noble Thieves.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Hywel Pendragon - 08-05-2013
What about when Locke had to steal the clothes from those merchants? xDD
Poor guys just minding their own business and BAM... naked and embarrassed.Â
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Dubs - 08-05-2013
I guess it comes down to the individual and how they plan to incorporate the RP of repercussions within the community. Are they willing to be ostracized?
As a former NWN2 GM there was a jail where if the player's character was caught stealing he would be taken there and would remain for quite a while.
There are no such mechanics in this game and to say that the individual in question emotes *you feel a slight brush against your side* and you then get a corresponding tell of "I just took your coin purse" is just meta-griefing to me personally and is just completely dismissed.
If people want to be attracted to the allure of the thief concept then they should take into account of every aspect of the archetype, not just the romanticized ones.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Zyrusticae - 08-05-2013
Alternatively, perhaps that character simply doesn't possess the same sence of materialism that normal, civilized people possess and doesn't understand the concept of 'property'?
I honestly find it quite a stretch to say that thievery, in and of itself, is a 'vile criminal act'. Most people who engage in thievery do it as a means of survival, not simply because they can. I find it highly disagreeable to paint all such individuals as 'completely untrustworthy', as simply being willing to take from others does not say much about whether or not that person can be trusted. It is entirely possible that you are willing to go quite far for the sake of survival but also hold those who aid you in high esteem.
"Property" itself is a concept born largely of a materialistic culture, and I think it's important to recognize that. Not everyone will see eye-to-eye in that area, and that's something that I think will be interesting to explore.
That being said, simply saying "I nicked your coin" is godmoding and should not be tolerated in any case. I would say that any sort of PvP in RP (which stealing from another player is) should be avoided just to steer clear of this situation.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - FreelanceWizard - 08-05-2013
I concur that playing a common thug and saying you're inspired by Locke is largely missing the point of his character. Locke (and Zidane, and Robin Hood, and countless others from other media) falls into the category of the "noble thief," the rogue who uses his skills to benefit the forces of Good by sidethinking and working from the shadows. If you're not a good guy, you're not like Locke other than you might share a skill set with him.
I'm not going to get into any value judgments on thievery itself; there's lots of ways to play it, and stories need Bad Guys too. I do want to echo Zyrusticae's point, though, that you absolutely must get consent from another player before stealing from them.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Momoji Momochi - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 02:28 PM)Hywel Pendragon Wrote:He made a choice for the greater good to do that. It was for a disguise if I recall. It comes down to the context of why they are doing it. A guy whose needs are already met, but decides to steal from a bystander anyway is just a villain. Being a thief isn't a good thing, and a person needs a very good explanation for why they are committing acts of theft, if nothing more than to show they aren't just a cold-blooded monster in the shape of a person.What about when Locke had to steal the clothes from those merchants? xDD
Poor guys just minding their own business and BAM... naked and embarrassed.Â
Yes, I know about the survival thing. However, thievery in and of itself is an undesireable act. The poor steal because they have no alternative, but that is only considered acceptable because of the particular situation, not because theft is morally ambiguous.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Martiallais - 08-05-2013
I'd think it worth noting that you're most definitely criticizing some people's playstyles. Not everyone in the world, fantasy or otherwise, is a kind hearted, altruistic, and heroic person. To expect everyone in a community to roleplay as such is...well a bit out there. Even among 'heroes' there are some that are outliers (see the Punisher, etc), what would you call them? Also, wouldn't you say you're going a bit far by commenting on someone 'having a few screws loose' for wanting to play such a character?Â
Just as it may be fun for you to play a shining knight in armor riding to rescue a princess, it's just as fun for someone else to play a thief or villain or someone who acts outside the laws. The dynamic created by people with different points of views and experiences is part of the magic of roleplaying...so if everyone was a bastion of goodness and propriety...well that'd get boring rather quickly, I imagine. Yes, thieves need consent, but since you are kind of specifically targeting more than a few characters and groups with those comments, I'd like to ask if you've spoken to them or at least researched them to see why those comparisons were made?
And for what it's worth? If such a vile, treacherous, criminal person was good at their job? Without godmodding you'd never know that they were a thief. Either way, I'd think the judgement calls on other's playstyles is a little heavy handed and unneeded, there's more than enough room in the community for everyone.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Hywel Pendragon - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 02:43 PM)Heinrich Foust Wrote: He made a choice for the greater good to do that. It was for a disguise if I recall. It comes down to the context of why they are doing it. A guy whose needs are already met, but decides to steal from a bystander anyway is just a villain.
It was for a disguise to get out of the city, yes.
It was more of joke on my part. =P
I agree that I've noticed some characters playing as a more thug character and claiming similarities to Locke which is just wrong. He fits the more 'noble-thief' character, even though he wasn't technically a thief his job-class still was.
Though, I could see some thugs with some redeeming qualities about their character. Such as my pirate. She'd lie and blackmail to take your coin, but she does have some standards and her own moral/honor code.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - lady2beetle - 08-05-2013
(08-05-2013, 02:46 PM)Zarek Wrote: And for what it's worth? If such a vile, treacherous, criminal person was good at their job? Without godmodding you'd never know that they were a thief. Either way, I'd think the judgement calls on other's playstyles is a little heavy handed and unneeded, there's more than enough room in the community for everyone.
I agree here. If there is no godmodding and if the "thief" is good at what they do, then you should never know that they are a thief. I, for one, am absolutely for the anti-hero concept and I have been very fond of playing, if not a thief, at least an assassin. If we all had perfect hero characters, then RP wouldn't be nearly as fun.
That said, if a "thief" lets themselves get caught or otherwise blatantly makes it obvious tha they are a thief, then they have to deal with the IC consequences. But don't punish them or critique them OOCly. That's just being elitist.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Dameon - 08-05-2013
Yuffie (FF VII)
Rei (BoF 3)
Zidane, Blank, Marcus (FF IX)
They were all thieves that did some criminal activities that were viewed by others as self serving and loathesome, but they were still interesting characters.
I think you can RP a thief that causes severe problems for others without just being a burglar that burgles and is hated by everyone.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Asyria - 08-05-2013
Have to keep in mind some people enjoy roleplaying the villain because it allows for great roleplay and stories. Aynone who thinks people RP villains primarily because they find evil endearing might have a few screws loose... I doubt evil is endearing to anyone, but without villains there can be no heroes and the villains built into the game won't RP with us players.
There is something beyond RPing for one's own enjoyment and that is building stories with others. Playing the villain in that context can be pretty rewarding. As a Game Master (or Dungeon Master or Storyteller, depending on the game) I regularly play villains and there's nothing quite like the satisfaction I feel when my players love to hate a NPC villain of my creation. When they pat each other on the back and celebrate their victory over their vile archenemy. When they talk about it months later. When I know I,ve done my job RPing the bad guy.
People not getting it indeed.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Ashren Dotharl - 08-05-2013
I'm not sure there is a such thing as a "noble thief" unless you are INCREDIBLY thorough. The idea of a noble thief falls mainly on the archetype created by Robin Hood, stealing from the rich to give to the poor. In the case of Robin Hood though he stole primarily from the king, though in some cases he also robbed wealthy merchants and what not with no real idea of who they were.
Let's say for example we have a noble thief and a rich merchant prince. The noble thief robs the merchant prince to give back to the people, so we sympathize with the cause of the thief because we exalt his deeds, but more often than not it's because we're given very little information about the person he's robbing.
In this example, what if that merchant prince started out as a street rat, he came up with a good idea and managed to elevate himself above his status (something Ul'dah is known for), or perhaps he's a member of a family that have worked incredibly hard and their wealth is well deserved. Maybe he has a large family and even though he has riches he also works himself to the bone to support said family and give them happiness. These are also very noble qualities, and the noble thief only perpetrates that just because he has something everyone else should have it too. In that example you're only perpetrating the idea that the poor don't need to work or make themselves of use to their society because you'll just rob the people who do work and prove themselves to their community and give it to everyone else.
Noble thief or not, that just makes you and everyone you support freeloaders in my opinion.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Sienna - 08-05-2013
The world isn't black and white. Robin Hood robbed from the rich and gave to the poor. To the rich he was a vile lowlife. To the poor he was a hero. If someone works hard, plays hard, has friends and family, and occasionally steals materials or items so that they can make a better profit from their own works? Yeah, they have a jaded moral code, but it does not make them Total dark.Â
Examples in response to your saying someone who wants to play a darker character has screws loose, APB and City of Villains. These were both games where you could pick sides. There's also popular NON-MMO games like Grand Theft Auto, and Bully. These have you doing things that, IRL, wouldn't be considered acceptable behaviour.Â
In another example, you're opting to play a game that has Black Magic in it. Black Magic is the demon/devil's work in several beliefs and cultures. If you choose to play that, that doesn't mean IRL you're a Satanist.
RE: Thieves... people not getting it - Momoji Momochi - 08-05-2013
Just to clear things up a bit, I have no problem with people roleplaying villains and the like as long as they have made the case clear that is what they are aiming to do. My issue is with people who think they're playing a hero while at the same time committing regular acts of evil against innocents. I've had to deal with that non-sense when playing Dungeons and Dragons before, and I don't want to have to deal with it again. It was almost like these guys thought that because their hero was able to walk into someone's house and loot it for hi-potions in some previous game they played on the DS or something that it is perfectly alright to do so in an actual role playing situation.
