(08-10-2013, 06:42 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.

(08-10-2013, 06:53 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 06:42 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm sorry, I just don't see how them implementing a system into the game that most likely will not offer any benefit and will probably only be used by a fraction of the player base as being irrationally prejudicial or  lumping people into an arbitrary category.

The benefit offered is irrelevant to deciding whether or not it's discrimination. A candy shop that disallows black people is just as discriminatory as a hospital that disallows black people: The only difference is in the effects of their respective acts of discrimination.

As for why this is lumping people into an arbitrary category, disallowing people from using the marriage feature because their characters are the same gender is, well… entirely arbitrary. The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

Note that whether or not Square-Enix needs to do this from a business or ratings standpoint has no effect on whether or not it is discriminatory. A shop in the early 1900s that only serviced white customers because servicing black customers would have hurt their business was just as discriminatory as one that did so out of the owner's hatred. There may be a difference in moral culpability, but there's no question that the discrimination applied is identical.

(08-10-2013, 07:01 AM)Reppu Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 06:53 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet.

(08-10-2013, 07:06 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 07:01 AM)Reppu Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 06:53 AM)Yini Kihn Wrote: The only reason they may disallow it will be because of irrational prejudices present in Japan and other countries around the world.

Now, now. While this is all very true, the fact of the matter is, there is no confirmation of it being disallowed or allowed yet.

I know! That's why I said "may disallow".

Don't worry, I'm not upset over this. You don't need to coddle me! *smiles*

(08-10-2013, 08:43 AM)Annaveil Wrote: Aw gosh, more heated debates. These always make me feel uncomfortable. :/ Well, my two cents is this:

It's discrimination. It may seem petty given that we're discussing fake marriage in a video game, but that doesn't change the fact that it's discrimination.

The best way that I can convey my feelings is to say to pretend like this game is coming out in 1950 and they aren't going to allow characters outside of certain skin tone ranges to marry. Sure, it seems absolutely silly right now... but sixty years ago? What if the developer did it so they wouldn't offend American traditions back then? 

That said! I really hope they implement it. I'm not a VIP member of the LGBT community (ehehe) but it'd be a small step forward for us all!

Also I really like everything Myxie Tryxle said.

(08-10-2013, 08:07 AM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: Reading over this thread for the last few hours, I've noticed two points of view that seem to be leading to the conflict in this thread.  I'll describe the first as rational (with varying degrees of sympathy) and the second as emotional (but not necessarily irrational).

I'll start with the rational, as that's the camp I identify myself with.  While at first glance, it may seem like this is a single straw, for someone who has experienced and gathered a lifetime worth of straw, one more straw is one straw too many.  The LGBT community suffers harassment, intolerance, discrimination, and abuse - potentially on a daily basis.  The people you're arguing with may have been cast out by family and friends or suffered death threats when they revealed their orientation.  Consider how you might feel if you experienced a lifetime of discrimination, heartache, and fear just for being who you are.  As an American, I live in a country where high school students will bully their peers to the point of committing suicide to escape the harassment.  Walk a mile in their shoes and consider why they may feel so strongly about this issue before writing off their emotions.

For the emotional, please understand that the rationals (myself included) may not have a basis to understand the depth of your feelings in this argument.  I've never experienced discrimination in my life, but I nonetheless despise inequality and unfairness.  The immediate response from the rational point of view is that this is a problem, an intellectual exercise in need of a game plan.  While it can come across as insensitive to a person for whom this debate represents their life and not just an intellectual exercise, the goal of the rational approach is the same - to find a solution that supports equality.  We're on your side, even if our arguments appear dispassionate.

As for Square Enix's role in all this, I think it will help to consider their structure and their motives.  Giant, multi-national corporations operate in terms of black and red, not black and white.  Nike, Apple, Walmart, Square Enix, etc. are going to base their decisions on what is most profitable.  Based on what I've read from the dev team, it sounds like they're supportive and open to this discussion.  They may be fighting an uphill battle in which they have to convince some combination of the CEO, CFO, VP of marketing, board of directors, and/or shareholders that allowing gay marriages in the game won't hurt the bottom line.

I think the opportunity is here for us to make a difference.  I think the dev team is on our side in this debate.  And I think that if we can present a united effort that yields a combined rational and passionate argument, we can sway whoever it is at Square Enix that is sitting on the fence.  Everyone deserves equal privileges in the game, and I'll gladly stand by the LBGT community in seeking equality.

Personally, I would be saddened if we lost players over this.  My gaming group since I moved to California in 2007 has included at least three bisexuals and one gay man.  All of them are good people, undeserving of discrimination, who bring interesting variety to my life and my gaming experiences.  Even if Square Enix doesn't support this, I think it's important that we as a community do.  Ultimately, if the corporation supports it, that decision will come down to dollars and cents.  It's the hearts and minds of the players that will really define the importance of this issue, and that's why you'll have my full support.

(08-10-2013, 08:47 AM)Reppu Wrote: I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means.

But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it?

(08-10-2013, 08:49 AM)Annaveil Wrote:

(08-10-2013, 08:47 AM)Reppu Wrote: I'd stress that, at this time? SquareEnix is not guilty of discrimination in FFXIV. If, by November or what have you, gay marriage is not included in the marriage mechanic? Then by all means.

But, for now, all SquareEnix is guilty of is... considering it?

Oh, well, of course! If they're going to include same sex marriages then this entire debate is pointless and they're not discriminating. I thought that was sort of obvious though lol.

(08-10-2013, 08:51 AM)Reppu Wrote: You'd, uh, be surprised that this entire thing is about the 'what if', really. The levels of emotion flaring simply on a potential 'what if'.

I'm kind of afraid of what'll happen when 2.1 comes around, and gay marriage is not implemented.

(08-10-2013, 08:58 AM)Annaveil Wrote: Hum, well. I can definitely see how making people wait is...hm. Frustrating. And I suppose that every good cause needs people who want to see it done right now.

Reminds me of when your boss sets goals above their level of expectation so that employees will actually try and reach those levels.

So! I see nothing wrong with lighting the fire beneath SE's tail a bit to get them moving along. It may seem insensitive to cultural traditions, but it isn't like we're discussing dinner ceremony or fashion trends lol! It's change that the entire world should strive to see.

(08-10-2013, 09:28 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: To my knowledge SE is not making anyone wait. They stated that the marriage system will be implemented with opposite sex marriage only, so we know for certain that when it is added that is how it's going to be. Yoshida said that after it is added they would consider feedback and what not from the players and might add in same sex marriage at a later time.

So in short, same sex marriage will be the only option when the system is added into the game. Any feedback given before then will most likely fall on deaf ears since they've got other things lined up before then.

(08-10-2013, 09:28 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: To my knowledge SE is not making anyone wait. They stated that the marriage system will be implemented with opposite sex marriage only, so we know for certain that when it is added that is how it's going to be. Yoshida said that after it is added they would consider feedback and what not from the players and might add in same sex marriage at a later time.

So in short, same sex marriage will be the only option when the system is added into the game. Any feedback given before then will most likely fall on deaf ears since they've got other things lined up before then.