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Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-12-2014
OK, so I'm in some habit of unintentionally opening wasp nests with certain discussions (Miqo'te, White Mages, etc.)
. Nonetheless, I do like discussions that can offer a vibrant debate by the presence of multiple, conflicting points that acknowledge one another! Hopefully this one is less controversial, and that is about the Ul'dahn Paladins, the Sultansworn, and the recently constructed Free Paladins. We see a lot of Free Paladins in roleplay recently (at least I have), and there is an assumption that they are straight-up Lawful Good, just because that's how paladins are defined in other fantasy IPs. While I'm not saying this assumption is outright erroneous, I did want to challenge it with a deeper thought on the matter.If anything, I feel they are closer to the real-life historical paladins of Charlemagne; best of the best royal guards, not crusaders of justices. This is supported by the fact that the French fleur-de-lis is found on PLD AF armour (ironic, considering Ul'dah is Ottoman/Arabic in primary influences). As mentioned below, I feel Lawful Neutral would be the closest fit. I think an analogy would be describing them as straight-up knights; heavily armoured sword and shield warriors in service to a lord. This makes free paladins akin to hedge knights. Heavily armoured sword and shield warriors without a lord to serve.
I'll start by posting the handful of posts that have already addressed this topic on the other thread...
Seriphyn
Quote:I wouldn't mind starting a discussion on Free Paladins, incidentally. So far, a lot of the roleplayers spin it as your standard Dungeons & Dragons goody-two-shoes. Granted, Jenlyns says "A true paladin offers his sword and shield without promise for reward" and other generic Lawful Good stuff...but I wonder if it's viable to say that's just this character's interpretation? For six hundred years, all paladins have been Sultansworn. I bet one could easily argue that history trumps one captain's decision to train outsiders. In which case, paladins are elite royal guards rather than crusaders of justice. To be "prepared to defend the Sultan to the death", they wouldn't be merciful at all like stereotypical LG...and would be rather ruthless.
Damnit, I wish I could access the non-CS dialogue from lvl30...I'm sure the NPC that tells you about free paladins mentions something about the 220 (or something) Commandments of the Paladins. Darn.
TheLastCandle
Quote:Honestly, I'm not up to date on Sultansworn lore, but given what I know of Ul'dah, I wouldn't be surprised if they generally swerve away from the "textbook Lawful Good" Paladin. It also wouldn't surprise me if the implications of that particular tenet (defending the Sultan/Sultana to the death) mean different things to individual Sultansworn. I daresay there is as much room for a typical goody-goody as there is a stone-cold Lawful Neutral hardass who only seeks to preserve order.
Sounsyy
Quote:I've always viewed the Paladins in a similar way. They're Royal Guards, not the Justice League. Furthermore, they're the Royal Guards of some... not so "Just" royals. Nanamo seems to be the one decent exception to a long line of Ul family dirtbags. Sultan Sisigan wipes out Ul'dah's sister nation of Sil'Dih over water control. We don't really know much about Sultana Sasamo, but she had 80 sins apparently. Doesn't sound like a great character. The Sultansworn also seem to protect the Syndicate on occasion (one of the Syndicate is a Prince?). The Syndicate is formed of the six richest citizens of Ul'dah. And there are several lore references that say they are not all nice people. Lots of corruption.Â
So, hard to imagine Paladins being champions of Good when they are tasked with the protection of some of Eorzea's worst crooks? Not all are bad, mind you, but a good many. Paladins supposed to have good intentions I guess? Jenlyns at least seems to be naively good. Oh and there's the Monetarists who seemed to have infiltrated the Sultansworn on some level and are using it for their own personal gain? That was a part of the PLD quests.
RE: Paladins! - Varus - 01-12-2014
About the Sultansworn:
Standards and attitudes have changed within the Sultansworn because of the loss of Oathkeeper, one of the three legendary swords. It is also possible for those within the ranks to be corrupted and manipulated by higher-powers, as evidenced by the attacks on you and Jenlyn during the story quests by other paladins at the whims of the Syndicate.Â
In the current age, the Sultansworn are more akin to royal guards of semi-questionable loyalty. Which is a big step above most organizations in Ul'dah, mind you.Â
You should also note that the Sultansworn probably have extensive training in other fields of combat beside swordsmanship, since there are a few archer and mage Sultansworn NPCs that attack you during the quest line.
Another observation is that some Sultansworn do not always wear their traditional white and blue armor, hinting that they are given other, shadier tasks that cannot be accomplished while in uniform.
About Free Paladins:
The closest thing to a real life comparison are probably knight errants, wandering knights that go on adventurers for some reason or another. Free Paladins maintain a code of honor and ethic to themselves rather than to a lord or organization. Stereotypically, this code of honor would be Lawful Good, but it doesn't have to be. There are stories of knight errants seeking bloody revenge, betraying their lord and oaths, etc.
RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-12-2014
The "Knight-Errant" archetype was my interpretation of the Free Paladin as well. Yvelont fits into that archetype as well, though without the "Paladin" title and associated abilities. The lore behind the Sultansworn is interesting, but like so much FFXIV lore, really needs more fleshing out. A lot of things are left open to player interpretation. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, because it keeps the door ajar for discussions like these, but it becomes hard to reach a consensus on just how a Paladin is "supposed" to act.
RE: Paladins! - Sounsyy - 01-12-2014
I'mma just throw out there that I've been attacked by more Paladins in story than I've been protected by them.Â
Solkzagyl seems to be a decent enough person. He used to be the Captain of the Sultansworn until he realized they were being corrupted and their original values tossed aside so he leaves.Â
I think the Lawful Good traits are there. Jenlyns and Solkzagyl believe they are there at least. But in a place like Ul'dah, you won't live long being Lawful Good...
RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 12:55 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I'mma just throw out there that I've been attacked by more Paladins in story than I've been protected by them.Â
Solkzagyl seems to be a decent enough person. He used to be the Captain of the Sultansworn until he realized they were being corrupted and their original values tossed aside so he leaves.Â
I think the Lawful Good traits are there. Jenlyns and Solkzagyl believe they are there at least. But in a place like Ul'dah, you won't live long being Lawful Good...
That's a popular opinion, but I have seen a couple pull it off rather well. As I've told my players as a DM, there is after all a difference between Lawful Good and Lawful Stupid.
RE: Paladins! - Tiergan - 01-12-2014
I'm okay with people RPing their paladins as Lawful Good types mainly because there's not really a huge wealth of information in game on exactly how the Sultansworn act other than that they protect the Sultanate and were a whole lot better as an organisation back before the Oathkeeper went 'poof'.Â
Once you take that aspect of them away, all you really have is the way SE presents the two main NPCs (not the ones simply bribed by the Montarists as if we're going with uncorrupted Sultansworn, they'd be more loyal to the Sultana) in the Paladin quest behaved, and both of them pretty much fall in line with the "Lawful Good" code-of-honour type paladins.
That said, I saw them as Knight-Errant-types as well and I think there's plenty of flexibility to be a paladin that is not a cut and dry DnD stereotype.
RE: Paladins! - Varus - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 12:55 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I'mma just throw out there that I've been attacked by more Paladins in story than I've been protected by them.Â
Lol. Truth.
RE: Paladins! - C'kayah Polaali - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 01:52 PM)Tiergan Wrote: I'm okay with people RPing their paladins as Lawful Good typesSame here, though I subscribe heavily to the moral relativistic point of view that says you should take character alignments into account within the framework of their society.
In other words, you've got Ul'dah, where there is rampant exploitation, slavery, vast wealth disparity, and a general low regard for the value of human life. A Lawful Good Sultansworn, in that context, would feel that all of those Ul'dahn values would be both just and good.
RE: Paladins! - TheLastCandle - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 04:08 PM)Ckayah Tia Wrote:(01-12-2014, 01:52 PM)Tiergan Wrote: I'm okay with people RPing their paladins as Lawful Good typesSame here, though I subscribe heavily to the moral relativistic point of view that says you should take character alignments into account within the framework of their society.
In other words, you've got Ul'dah, where there is rampant exploitation, slavery, vast wealth disparity, and a general low regard for the value of human life. A Lawful Good Sultansworn, in that context, would feel that all of those Ul'dahn values would be both just and good.
I see nothing wrong with that, nor do I find fault in choosing to play a Sultansworn with a more traditionally defined "Lawful Good" outlook. Granted, it would be a challenge to play such a character in Ul'dahn society, but I see that as a fun opportunity myself. If only I weren't being so careful not to slip into my usual alt-itis in FFXIV!
RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-12-2014
Perhaps the moral character of the Sultansworn paladins reflects the character of whatever Sultan is in power at the time, as alluded in the OP quotes? So, for Sultana Nanamo Ul Namo, who is written to be quite just and good (Let Them Eat Cactus FATE, for example), paladins and free paladins trained under her would be rather lawful good.
Compare that to paladins under a cruel Sultan, and then they'd probably be lawful neutral.Â
All that said, I don't know if I could agree with Lawful Good for Sultansworn paladins by default (rather than varying depending on the leader)...what happens if the paladin is ordered to do an act that violates the stereotypical LG code? They -would- folllow the Sultan's orders, unless they want to surrender the paladin title (ignoring free paladins for now, since they're recent). Therefore LN is closer...
Ofc, this is using the incredibly restrictive D&D alignment system which is absolute nonsense, since you can't capture the wide range of human emotions and ideas that  single person has in one of nine labels.
RE: Paladins! - Tiergan - 01-12-2014
I do agree that Sultansworn would probably be more Lawful Neutral than the typical idea of Lawful Good just because of the way Ul'dah is.
But I can also see them veering towards more Lawful Good just because of the kind of person the current Sultana is. It makes sense that the leader would influence his/her royal guard.
For what it's worth, Tiergan's training to be a free paladin, but he'd probably be classified as either Neutral Good or Chaotic Good.
RE: Paladins! - Jomoru - 01-13-2014
I think people need to stop using The D&D alignment chart for anything outside D&D. They are 9 cosmological truths in the D&D metasetting, you can litterally go to a place that IS chaotic evil or Lawful Good or what have you.
What is clear is that in setting the Sultansworn are like well Knights. There is a chivalric code but like most moral codes it can be hard to live up to and people who generally follow it can still fall from time to time.
RE: Paladins! - LiadansWhisper - 01-13-2014
(01-13-2014, 02:34 AM)Jomoru Wrote: I think people need to stop using The D&D alignment chart for anything outside D&D. They are 9 cosmological truths in the D&D metasetting, you can litterally go to a place that IS chaotic evil or Lawful Good or what have you.
What is clear is that in setting the Sultansworn are like well Knights. There is a chivalric code but like most moral codes it can be hard to live up to and people who generally follow it can still fall from time to time.
I like Alignments. Â They help me figure out my character's moral code.
RE: Paladins! - Jomoru - 01-13-2014
Not really use of Alignments is more a hinderance than anything else, because unlike D&D Eorzea doesn't have morality as a physical law. Â In D&D one can say out right certain things are good certain things are lawful but without those bases alignments become arbitrary arguments.
Instead you can make a much more simple basis. "My character values this" What does it mean to value justice? Does it mean you need to do horrible things to horrible people? What does it mean to value justice and Mercy? What does it mean to value nations or Eorzea or race or family. These things make a code. These things make a character and they are far more useful than saying something like "lawful Good"
RE: Paladins! - LiadansWhisper - 01-13-2014
(01-13-2014, 03:02 PM)Jomoru Wrote: Not really use of Alignments is more a hinderance than anything else, because unlike D&D Eorzea doesn't have morality as a physical law. Â In D&D one can say out right certain things are good certain things are lawful but without those bases alignments become arbitrary arguments.
Instead you can make a much more simple basis. "My character values this" What does it mean to value justice? Does it mean you need to do horrible things to horrible people? What does it mean to value justice and Mercy? What does it mean to value nations or Eorzea or race or family. These things make a code. These things make a character and they are far more useful than saying something like "lawful Good"
Well, you're completely entitled to your opinion, it's just one I don't share. Â While I agree that Lawful Good is a really difficult (possibly impossible) Alignment to play in this setting, there are plenty of other Alignments that can provide a nice starting point from which to fully flesh-out your character.
Remember, Alignments are just a lodestone that points you in a particular direction. Â They aren't shackles that bind you in place. Â
Edited to Add: More related to the topic, I do think that it would be helpful if people stopped equating the D&D (and, to an extent, World of Warcraft) Paladin with the Paladins in FFXIV. Because they're not the same at all. In D&D and in WoW, they are directly chosen by a deity/the Light to be a champion of good and yadda yadda (unless you're a Blood Elf, BUT WE AREN'T TALKING ABOUT BLOOD KNIGHTS OK?). In this game, it's more of a training and mindset thing. They aren't "Holy Warriors of Divine Power." At least, not as far as I can tell, anyway.