+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Paladins! (/showthread.php?tid=6110)
RE: Paladins! - Ildur - 01-14-2014
Since being a free paladin doesn't seem to grant you any kind of payment, I would agree that people who become free paladins will, most likely, do so for the sake of helping others. However, you can believe in helping others, join a group that does exactly that and still find yourself taking and justifying evil actions:
Both a Sultarnsworn and a free paladin, no matter how much they dislike politics, could pick a group of brigands and decide that torturing them to find their leader's plan is justificable because of the greater good ("We torture these brigands today but we'll catch their leader or ruin their plan, saving many innocent lives").
If this does or does not make you evil could be discussed, but the point is that we shouldn't think that the Sultansworn are inherently more propense than free paladins to evil or unlawful actions than free paladins because of the politics involved in their organization.
RE: Paladins! - McBeefâ„¢ - 01-14-2014
Again I agree that in a personal sense Sultansworn and Free Paladins are likely equally moral. However sultansworn can be given orders to do morally grey things, and they have little choice in the matter. I would think that in general, such tasks would be relegated to the Brass Blades or the Flames, but it is quite plausible that sultansworn could do the dirty business of the Sulatana. I feel like this makes for a rather interesting dynamic, as on the surface they are supposed to be paragons of justice, but at the same time they could be the ones stabbing you to death in an alley if the Sultana orders it. Thankfully the current sultana seems to be rather compassionate, but as others have said, Sultansworn have probably been more like KGB type secret police at various times in the past.
RE: Paladins! - C'kayah Polaali - 01-14-2014
I think that, again, this comes down to the idea that the Sultansworn and/or free paladins are upholding a particularly Ul'dahn concept of law, order and good.
Plato argued that that which we call good is merely that which everyone desires. In the case of Ul'dah, "everyone" really means the Sultana and the Syndicate, and their desires largely center around economic flow and the maintenance of the status quo, power-wise.
In other words, I think it's entirely justifiable for a Sultansworn or free paladin to resort to things like assassination or torture in order to benefit the greater good.
RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-14-2014
(01-14-2014, 06:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: My character first and foremost put's the safety of the Sultanate, Ul'dah and it's citizens above basically all else. So things like murder, blackmail or torture, are not completely out of the question, if they are needed to support the sultanate.Â
Probably the key thing about the Sultansworn, yeah. In-character, Kale would have no patience for goody-two-shoes free paladins because of this bit in particular (even if my character sorta goes towards LG)
RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-21-2014
Necroing a bit, saw three free paladin RPers in the same room just now. I wonder if one could argue a 'devaluation' of the paladin tradition since it seems very common in-character?
RE: Paladins! - McBeefâ„¢ - 01-21-2014
(01-21-2014, 11:09 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: Necroing a bit, saw three free paladin RPers in the same room just now. I wonder if one could argue a 'devaluation' of the paladin tradition since it seems very common in-character?You could argue that, but it seems clear that free paladins are not held to the standard of Sultansworn. It's like the difference between someone who took a first aid class, and a paramedic. I see free paladin as an aspect of a character, but it doesn't have to define them. Sultansworn imo, should define a character, (my character sometimes refers to herself a "dog of the sultanate") and really limits how they can act.
Also the whole point of free paladins is to have lots of trained people that Ul'dah can call in in an emergency, sort of like military reservists. Having many of them around seems to mean the program is working.
RE: Paladins! - Tiergan - 01-21-2014
Question for you, Seriphyn: Since Free Paladins aren't really bound to protect the Sultana and instead follow their own moral code - what would your ideal Free Paladin be like?
In my mind, it made sense to me that most (but not all) Free Paladins veer towards the more goodie-goodie range (though not exactly the DnD definition of 'Lawful Good'). After all, if you're a Sultansworn teaching uninitiated men and women your secret art handed down through the centuries - you probably are going to want to teach it to people who seem like good, honourable folk who will work to protect Ul'dah and its people instead of the person most likely to go on a murderous rampage through your city using the abilities that you taught them.
Or is this more about the lack of diversity amongst Free Paladin RP?
RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-21-2014
I don't really have any strong OOC feelings about free paladins and all that, it's purely just for material to RP. My character is a patriotic traditionalist, and he felt that the Paladin armour was the most elite armour that only the most loyal Ul'dahns could wear. Now that it can be worn by anyone deemed 'worthy' by Captain Jenlyns, he finds it offensive.
Though if I were to answer Tiergan's question regardless of that...I don't really know, actually. I would be happy to see more diversity, though, as there are a lot of straight-up lawful good D&D paladins; some seem to have glossed over the Ul'dahn origins of the job completely, leaving it a generic paladin. Guess this is similar to people RPing generic dragoons rather than draw on the Ishgardian lore of it.
But that goes into the territory of telling people what to RP, which I'm not really interested in. My own preferences of what I'd like to see does not mean I would not RP with free paladins.
RE: Paladins! - Isilme - 01-23-2014
My opinion meshes with a lot here, that trying to shoehorn FFXIV Paladins into the D&D mold... or even any previous Final Fantasy mold... is a mistake.
In MOST fantasy lore, Paladins are usually an already-ancient order, with well established traditions and a strong independence from any one nation or ruler. But in Eorzea, I think they are a more recent thing, a martial style created by the Sultansworn. This means they are a creation of Ul'Dah, and are still very much evolving.
Right now, the Paladins are in strife, because of an ideological split. You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.
Then you have Solkzagyl, who is of the belief that being a Paladin is something greater than being a royal guard, that a true Paladin holds honor and his beliefs in what is right and true above allegiances to transient power. And he is opposed strongly.
There is no divine blessing or selection going on like with Cecil (Though that is certainly possible, it's not required). Paladins, unlike many of the other advanced classes, do not draw their power from a connection to a higher power. They're just incredibly, impossibly stubborn. And so you could legitimately rp a Paladin as whatever you want, though the bias is going to be towards honor and duty, since the ones who train in Paladin martial skills are biased towards that.
RE: Paladins! - McBeefâ„¢ - 01-23-2014
(01-23-2014, 01:17 PM)Isilme Wrote: Â You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.
That is actually a really interesting angle, that I had not really considered before. The sultansworn do have a very similar position to the Praetorian guard in Rome. The Praetorians started out by guarding emperors, but since no emperor could survive long without their protection, they eventually started picking them. Since the the upper floors of Ul'dah are essentially flooded with sultansworn, it's very likely they have some sort of active political role in Ul'dah.
The sultan wouldn't have to even actively do anything, simply by withdrawing their protection it would signal that an individual was incredibly vulnerable to Ul'dah's countless knives.
RE: Paladins! - Kendha'to - 01-23-2014
It seems like, if one really wanted to play up the whole "religious warrior" archetype that D&D paladins espouse, playing a particularly devout knight of Ishgard might be an option. Granted, I suppose such a character would likely not be called a "paladin" as that seems to be specifically an Ul'dahn title, but still, it seems likely that the Archbishop might have his own Templars or something similar. Thoughts?
RE: Paladins! - Isilme - 01-23-2014
(01-23-2014, 02:03 PM)Kendha Wrote: It seems like, if one really wanted to play up the whole "religious warrior" archetype that D&D paladins espouse, playing a particularly devout knight of Ishgard might be an option. Granted, I suppose such a character would likely not be called a "paladin" as that seems to be specifically an Ul'dahn title, but still, it seems likely that the Archbishop might have his own Templars or something similar. Thoughts?
Given that many of the guards in Ishguard wear Templar armor? I think this is quite reasonable.
Thematically, the Ishguardian Dragoons (Not THE Holy Dragoon, but the Dragoon Knights) are much closer to traditional Paladins. Deeply devoted to Halone, locked in a war with an enemy they view as demonic, and very concerned with divine right, honor and justice.
RE: Paladins! - C'kayah Polaali - 01-23-2014
(01-23-2014, 01:51 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:Well, the word "Paladin" does derive from "Palantine", after allÂ(01-23-2014, 01:17 PM)Isilme Wrote: Â You have the Sultansworn, who give their allegiance to the Sultana, and some who feel that their allegiance is to the greatest power in Ul'Dah, not necessarily the Sultana herself.
That is actually a really interesting angle, that I had not really considered before. The sultansworn do have a very similar position to the Praetorian guard in Rome. The Praetorians started out by guarding emperors, but since no emperor could survive long without their protection, they eventually started picking them. Since the the upper floors of Ul'dah are essentially flooded with sultansworn, it's very likely they have some sort of active political role in Ul'dah.
The sultan wouldn't have to even actively do anything, simply by withdrawing their protection it would signal that an individual was incredibly vulnerable to Ul'dah's countless knives.
RE: Paladins! - Seriphyn - 01-27-2014
Actually, OOC, I think Solkzagyl is full of shit. The paladins have been Sultansworn royal guards for centuries. By what logic is he drawing these concepts of paladins being anything -but- royal guards, ey? He's been playing D&D and impressing it on the Sultansworn, tschÂ
RE: Paladins! - Aldotsk - 02-01-2014
Patriotic tradition has limits in my honest opinion. No matter how much Sultansworn may be good or lawful they may be, in the end they have to agree and cooperate with Monetarists if they HAVE to even if it means of going with corrupted power. In Ul'dah politics, there are Royalists and Monetarists of course and Royalists are those who follow the ideals of Nanamo even if it may be new rules applied to all Sultansworns and free paladins.Â
Now, if the Monetarists are fully corrupting and abusing the system of Sultana and Sultansworn - wouldn't you think that those who are "Lawful/Chaotic Good" people would resign out like Solkzagyl and tell other new paladins to find their way instead of being chained down by corrupted bureaucrats?Â
Aside from Limsa Lominsa and Gridania, I honestly think Ul'dah has a very complicated political system, yet a lot of corrupted political power inside. Tradition or not, if something goes rotten - you throw it away and find a new one.