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Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Printable Version

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Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Steel Wolf - 01-22-2014

....ssssooooo I loves me some alt'ing.  Like, for realz.  Kids spell things with a "z" for emphasis still, right?

Here's the thing, though.  I'm not really sure I want to commit to multiple characters.  I'm sappily attached (through affection not...not actual sap) to my first and only character in the game, and the fact that this game lets that one character do every job ever delights me beyond belief.

But that brings me to my problem.  Namely, how to avoid the Mary Sue complex.

As an IC Armorsmith still in-training, the other DoH classes all can kind of be meta-tied together as part of her learning to become an Armorer of repute without too much trouble...but I've written Steel to be intentionally more able to handle the martial practices than the metaphysical ones.  Which pretty much wrote me out of playing any casting classes IC'ly.

I had thought of an answer in the form of the Arcanist's Grimoire--the fact that Steel would carry around a book as a guide to help her cast her spells seems to be the best answer to the conundrum I've created for myself, even if my time as a THM or CNJ has me nowhere near the Big Boomy Math Book.

...basically, I'm asking for suggestions.  Is the excuse of "because grimoire" enough?  Are there better answers out there?  Or should I just suck it up and roll an entirely new alt?

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - LiadansWhisper - 01-22-2014

Don't forget that there's a lot of cross-class skills.  But how I would handle it is...this book helps me cast spells that I sometimes (or often) flub.  Takes me longer, because I have to look them up and sloooooowly read out the incantations.  They usually work.  You know, when they don't singe the hair off of everyone around me.  I SWEAR THIS TIME NOTHING WILL EXPLODE, OK?

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Old Account - 01-22-2014

(01-22-2014, 02:47 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Don't forget that there's a lot of cross-class skills.  But how I would handle it is...this book helps me cast spells that I sometimes (or often) flub.  Takes me longer, because I have to look them up and sloooooowly read out the incantations.  They usually work.  You know, when they don't singe the hair off of everyone around me.  I SWEAR THIS TIME NOTHING WILL EXPLODE, OK?

I think Liadan hit the nail on the head, there, if you want to play the class IC.  Personally, I only level up the melee classes for the ability to mix and match my gear.  IC, my character is strictly a spell-caster.

If you plan to RP out the classes that you level, though, I think what you have is sufficient to keep from entering the Mary Sue complex.  She's not immediately good at it, she doesn't whip it out and auto-win, nothing like that.  The way you currently have also allows for many luls to be had when she tries to cast spells, and the occasionally lucky "... I did that?  Surprise" moment.

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Steel Wolf - 01-22-2014

Wow, I didn't even -consider- the whole "I did it!! Yaaay--OH CRAP MONSTERS DON'T LIKE FIRE LOBBED AT THEM!" angle!  Geez, seems so obvious now!

Thanks for the reassurance, guys.  Though, further thoughts are always welcome, of course.  :3

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Jomoru - 01-22-2014

The techniques one learns to use say a sword are often inapplicable when using other weapons.. or even different types of sword(You wouldn't use Kendo with a rapier!)

IRL magical traditions are all about having proper impliments for certain types of magic so why not take the game as it is? It takes the Right tools and proper setup to use a particular set of magic, you cannot just fling around Thaumturgy/Black magic while wielding an arcanist's grimoire, the book's patterns do not match up for others.

So I generally hold that in whatever scene a character is in they are in one class, that it takes some time and effort to swap over clothing, equipment and atheric pattern a character might be a Cnj one day and a black mage the next but they shouldn't be both at the same time.

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Steel Wolf - 01-22-2014

(01-22-2014, 04:10 PM)Jomoru Wrote: IRL magical traditions are all about having proper impliments for certain types of magic so why not take the game as it is? It takes the Right tools and proper setup to use a particular set of magic, you cannot just fling around Thaumturgy/Black magic while wielding an arcanist's grimoire, the book's patterns do not match up for others.
Thanks for your thoughts!  ^^

In my mind's eye, I do see Steel holding both the grimoire (which would be written as a spellbook instead of a large tome holding only Arcanima figures and patterns) and whatever focii are required of that brand of magick, be it staff or wand or what have you.  Problem being, of course, that that's only visible in MY head, and not immediately apparent to everyone else unless I write a prompt in RP for them.

It's a complex problem, considering the other systems in-game (click a button and fwoosh! I'm a Lancer!), which is why I wanted to gauge opinions on how I had approached the matter and whether that explanation was too simplistic or game-breaking for anyone else.

The caveat, regardless of whatever numerical level my character may be, would be that her in-character abilities with spellcasting would be very sub-par compared to a more devoted student of the DoM.  But, again, I appreciate your input and thoughts.  Big Grin

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Jomoru - 01-22-2014

(01-22-2014, 04:20 PM)Steel Wolf Wrote: It's a complex problem, considering the other systems in-game (click a button and fwoosh! I'm a Lancer!), which is why I wanted to gauge opinions on how I had approached the matter and whether that explanation was too simplistic or game-breaking for anyone else.

 

As someone who's put on armor it takes abit of time and sometimes abit of help, so I assume it takes an equal amount of effort to get one properly into an arcane pattern and not just "I slip on my robe and pick up a stick"


Of course some people do have magical clothes changing powers, of course they sold their souls to white carbunkles to get it so I don't feel bad J/k

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Steel Wolf - 01-22-2014

(01-22-2014, 06:00 PM)Jomoru Wrote: [quote pid=75221 dateline=1390422021]
As someone who's put on armor it takes abit of time and sometimes abit of help, so I assume it takes an equal amount of effort to get one properly into an arcane pattern and not just "I slip on my robe and pick up a stick"

[/quote]
Ooooooh....see, that's some insight I don't think a lot of people have.  So, yea, I can DEFINITELY appreciate your point of view then. 

I hope you'll forgive me my realism transgressions.  :c

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - LiadansWhisper - 01-22-2014

(01-22-2014, 06:22 PM)Steel Wolf Wrote: I hope you'll forgive me my realism transgressions.  :c

This is a game where I can raise people from the dead.  I really don't think there's such a thing as "realism transgressions."

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Jomoru - 01-23-2014

(01-22-2014, 07:14 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-22-2014, 06:22 PM)Steel Wolf Wrote: I hope you'll forgive me my realism transgressions.  :c

This is a game where I can raise people from the dead.  I really don't think there's such a thing as "realism transgressions."

CPR will do that too!

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - LiadansWhisper - 01-23-2014

(01-23-2014, 04:43 AM)Jomoru Wrote: CPR will do that too!

CPR will prevent someone from dying (or prolong their life), but it will not bring you back from the dead, if you're really, truly dead.

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Saefinn - 01-23-2014

For my dear pirate captain, I had him take down the path of an Arcanist, which led him to become a Scholar, hence he parades egotistically with the title 'Scholar Captain', but I wanted to incorporate other classes, for craft, alchemy was the most obvious, but as he's still technically new to it, he's not brilliant. He's managed to sudbue foes with his potions, but the other night when we caught an enemy, he attempted to use his alchemy to get information, thinking he managed to mix together a truth potion, but it didn't work.

On the other hand, he's tried learning to wield a melee weapon, initially getting help with an axe, but later found his hands were better suited for a lance, again, he's far from proficient with it, but it allows me to parade with a lance when suitable.

I also had one of my crews Black Mages teach him a few things about offensive magic to help him getting better use out of his Grimoire, it was this help that later led him to being able to summon an egi. But at the of the day the only skill he's only really good at is related to being a Scholar.

He's also a culinerian, but rather, he's somebody who can cook and not a master chef...his crew have groaned at his miqo'bobs before. He also likes to fish as a pass time, as it was the only quality time he got from his alcoholic father.

I think it's realistic in that people will learn multiple skills in their life time and won't be a one trick pony, just of course be aware of the level of hard work it may take to master one and it may be unrealistic to master everything. Hence the captain isn't parading as a dragoon, but a lancer instead.

However, I won't be doing all the classes, I think he's got enough for the time being,

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Xha'li Moui - 01-23-2014

With Xha'li I have him being modestly proficient with the lance as he studied it from about 5 years starting when he was twelve, hes no expert esspeically since he hardly used one for the better part of a year before the game launched as he was busy learning conjury even though that wasn't his true "fit" magically speaking.  Currently he's be about beginner/intermediate level as a conjurer, more towards intermediate as a arcanist, and he just picked up a copy of the Yawning Abyss to mess around with Thaumaturgy though he is by no means an expert in any area.  Actually his strongest spot might very well be something that can't really be done in game yet-caring for chocobos.

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - synaesthetic - 01-26-2014

If you want to do it I say do it.

The game lets you play as multiple occupations and acquire multiple skillsets, so go wild.

My character Aeriyn is a black mage who, after entering the Wanderer's Palace on a mission for the Maelstrom, rescued a Nymian fairy who was imprisoned in a shard of corrupted aether. The fairy, Rinah, has been disconnected from the aetherial flow and will die eventually if things are left as they are. 

Aeriyn's current character arc centers around both trying to help Rinah and to science the crap out of the incident that severed the fairy from her original summoner, stuck her in a shard of corrupted aether and disconnected her from the source of her existence. During the events of this plot, Rinah teaches Aeriyn the spells and formulae of the Nymian scholars. 

So Aeriyn is ICly both a veteran black mage and a novice scholar. The way the plot's going, she'll likely also start learning about the Allagan art of summoning as well. I don't see a problem with your characters having diverse skillsets because people in real life can have diverse skillsets, and the game allows you to do it, so why the hell not? Smile

RE: Play ALL THE THINGS! - Avoiding the Mary Sue Trap - Entity - 02-28-2014

When I think about something like Arcanima and grimoires, I think of magic being used as a ultility, instead of just "having the gift" like with Thaumaturgy and Conjury. The way I've worked Emiiresa's explanations about arcanima IC, it is composed of not just having the gift of great amounts of aether and/or magic, it is being able to use one's mental and intellectual capacities and abilities to voluntarily influence or alter and transform it to one's needs, so I feel Arcanima depends more on the person rather than the magic itself. Carbuncle, for instance, is really just aether given form through mental and intellectual conceptualization. I don't really consider "forming a bond" with the creature to be important in doing this. When you  deal with Summoner and Scholar, especially Scholar, it is really about strategizing and altering the geometries and aether to suit your situation, and most of those geometries come from the grimoires Arcanists use, as shown by the pictures in the books. Emiiresa learns a fairly large majority of her Summoning and Scholar skills through the grimoires. I take into account that, since they're books, there's information to be read in each and every one of them, information which helps her to become a masterful Arcanist. In my opinion, I believe that arcanima involves taking aether, regardless of the amount, and shaping it into the desired structure using one's own imagination and intellect to do so. To me you're more dependent on your intellect and creativity as well as what you learn from reading the grimoires rather than JUST magic and aether.

Things like Conjury and Thaumaturgy, on the other hand, I would consider to be more tailored to "having the gift," or having the ability to mainly channel magic and aether, because all you're doing as a Black Mage and a White Mage is casting and throwing spells, it's not as complex as Arcanima where you're taking aether and turning it into several different things. It's why Arcanists have a diverse set of spells, while Black Mage and White Mage are focused on one type of magic, and channel it through their weapons and in some cases, whether OOC or IC, even their body. Again, this is shown in the Conjurer storyline, in which Sylphie's mother used her own life force to heal(Of course that's not exactly the best means of healing, as it puts the user at a serious risk unless their lifeforce is enormous). Again, all Emiiresa does IC when it comes to things like White Mage is just gathering however much aether she needs and, using her weapon as a medium, channeling it into energy that heals.

Hmm...to put it one way, it could be akin to comparing kinetic energy, which derives more from the natural, with mechanical energy, which is synthetic, or man-made, and requires more effort on our part.