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Future MMO Prospects - Printable Version

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RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 04-26-2014

(04-25-2014, 06:58 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: You're talking about incomparables, but that sort of system takes a lot of work to keep fair and balanced. It's easier to just make the numbers go higher.

Well, fair and balanced is one of those things we can play with.  In games where PVP forms the vast majority of player interaction, it can be more of an issue.  In a game like Monster Hunter where player performance and adaptability is always more important than specific role-specialization, it can be a lot easier.  I suppose it's just easier for MMO games to extend their lifetimes and make money (either by P2W or subscription) by making sure you're always having to get new stuff you don't have yet.  I'm not sure why they don't just give you ways to boost your "stats" in a more organic way than by giving you a tiered equipment system.

More to the point, as you said, it's a complete waste when you've spent the better part of a year putting together the graphics for your expansion pack and then never use it again.  For all intents and purposes, it's a very expensive misappropriation of resources.  Blizzard is constantly having to field hate coming out of the blue for their release schedule, because even considering the ridiculously vast amount of content they've accumulated over the years, so much of it is one-and-done.  Considering how fast you can level now, people leveling now will probably see less than half of the Burning Crusade's Outland world, much less all the raids that used to make up the endgame.  All that work to essentially be cast by the wayside.

I mean, granted, at least it has pretty frequent content releases, but it does feel like a lot of effort for its somewhat disposable content, like taking the time to beautifully hand-craft and individually paint paper cups for a water cooler.

There are a lot of ways around that, most of which might involve you having to run from the big bad monsters a lot if you set them to patrol low level areas.  I still remember one of the funniest moments of my life being my first time in the Konschtat Highlands with my brothers in FFXI.  We ran into a particularly large ram, but it didn't seem to be bothering us.  So my brother walked right up in front of it and was one-shot.  Steelfleece Baldarich chased the other two of us all the way to the Dem Crag.  I also recall my first time in Un'Goro crater being chased by a Tyrant Devilsaur in circles until I found the way out on my hunter.  I also remember being one-shot a few times when I first started BC by wandering Fel Reavers.

There's no reason you shouldn't make areas useful and accessible from level one to max level besides how much games coddle us.  I guess it isn't seemly for them to make us run from fights we can't win and feel like we've gained something when we don't die (one of the other reasons I feel like game-death is way too trivial is that it completely ruins the element of danger and makes death a mild to moderate annoyance that essentially costs money).

Again, lots of ways to get out of the cycle, but increasing stat numbers on gear has been around almost as long as the RPG concept has been.  I could come up with about a half-dozen viable ways out of it that would waste less time modeling gear (not to mention that WoW has now been around so long and inflated the numbers so large that they're instituting a stat squish so that the game can recognize all the numbers).  Developers just don't; they don't need more than a gimmick or two to say they aren't like any other game out there and then they can just do what everyone else is doing.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - synaesthetic - 04-26-2014

That is one thing I really do like about Guild Wars 2; because your level is automatically scaled for the zone, you never go through any area feeling like you're so overpowered that you can just pull the whole zone and not die. 

There is actually a definite feeling of danger and exploration when you wander through the world in GW2. Now if only they could make their attempt to avoid the holy trinity not simply a gigantic zergfest...

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 04-26-2014

(04-26-2014, 04:13 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: That is one thing I really do like about Guild Wars 2; because your level is automatically scaled for the zone, you never go through any area feeling like you're so overpowered that you can just pull the whole zone and not die. 

There is actually a definite feeling of danger and exploration when you wander through the world in GW2. Now if only they could make their attempt to avoid the holy trinity not simply a gigantic zergfest...
Yeah, I guess I sometimes expect a lot from game developers (at least that they can come up with better ideas than we can) but that statement is as damning as you'd need a statement to be about modern MMORPG development.  All of the really cool and interesting ways you'd think of breaking the mold of MMORPG default party mechanics, and the last thing you'd think of doing is turning it into a free-for-all.

I'll give them credit for trying.  They failed, miserably, but they tried, and that's worth something.  Especially for a F2P MMO.  Such sins are unforgivable in games requiring subscription fees, but the realistic side of me wouldn't expect stratospheric development from a game I'm not going to be paying 15$ a month for.  Oddly, Diablo 3 sort of does the same thing successfully.  I'm kind if interested to see where the D3, Starcraft II, and all their experimentation with World of Warcraft lands Blizzard with their Titan project.  Or if any MMORPG they make will ever match their standards or our hype.  Not many companies would wipe the slate clean mid-process because it doesn't feel good enough.

I'd honestly kind of hope another heavy swinger shows up to make a game.  There just aren't many companies out there with the pedigree that I'd believe they can actually pull a game like this off.  Blizzard has always had a high standard of gameplay, considering they were making games of high quality back when gameplay would make or break your game.  Square has that pedigree.  Who else does that hasn't taken a stab yet?  I know I'd like to see what From would be able to put together if they could be assed to do it.  CAPCOM might have been able to pull it off, but with their financial issues right now and the fact that their business arm seems to be jerking the development arm behind them like a dog on a leash, I wouldn't even trust them to do it.  Nintendo would probably be able to do it, but they have their own console issues before they could even think about it.

Who else is there that might actually be able to put together a shockingly good MMORPG right now?  I just don't think something of that magnitude is coming from an indie developer with a kickstarter or a company that makes middling games.  Maybe I just don't have any faith, but it seems like we just don't have very many real powerhouse developers anymore.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - synaesthetic - 04-27-2014

None of the big dawgs are going to do anything but make more of the same. The suits simply won't let them. No publisher is going to bet sixty-plus million on an "unproven" experiment.

No, expect to see more of the same from the big triple-A developers. If you want to see where innovation is going to live in regards to the MMO space, look at Kickstarter, look at the indie crowd.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Zyrusticae - 04-27-2014

Well, I just learned that the housing in Black Desert is now fully instanced instead of open-world like it was in the past.

I can't say I'm not disappointed by this revelation, but at the same time, I can understand that what they were going for was probably too ambitious for our current level of technology. Even our single-player RPGs still have load screens when entering buildings; MMORPGs are an order of magnitude more complex than those, so they were probably pushing things too hard as it was.

In other news, however, the city is incredibly huge and lively:


RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 04-27-2014

Color me impressed by that city. It's pretty much exactly what I was wishing for in my earlier posts (though a few more enterable buildings would be nice...).

I still can't get over how terrible the draw distance is though. XD All those objects flicking in and out of existance is kind of hilarious and rather takes me out of enjoying the scenery haha.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - synaesthetic - 04-27-2014

dem character animations @.@

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Clover - 04-27-2014

(04-27-2014, 03:50 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: In other news, however, the city is incredibly huge and lively:
Yes!! She sat on a bench! That was all I wanted to see *laughs*.

I don't care if the draw distance is slow. It's still a beta, but even if the final game is still like this, it looks awesome. I for one will give it a try when it's released, if that ever happens.

I'm also looking forward to Bless and KUF2.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 04-27-2014

(04-27-2014, 05:18 PM)Clover Wrote: Yes!! She sat on a bench! That was all I wanted to see *laughs*.

But can they walk?

/teraptsd

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 04-27-2014

(04-27-2014, 01:53 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: None of the big dawgs are going to do anything but make more of the same. The suits simply won't let them. No publisher is going to bet sixty-plus million on an "unproven" experiment.

No, expect to see more of the same from the big triple-A developers. If you want to see where innovation is going to live in regards to the MMO space, look at Kickstarter, look at the indie crowd.

I disagree.  Indie game developers can experiment with quickie Steam games, but they don't have the muscle to play with MMORPGs.

I think it's easy to discount big developers as Activision or EA whores, and that's usually the case.  However, some of the big developers can still kick out a decent game.  I'd say they're the ones most likely to come up with something original that actually works.

Like I said, From Software is one of the AAA developers who could definitely pull this off.  They're used to making titles that succeed despite everyone saying they won't work.  I know their work best from Tenchu (the ninja assassin game where you actually have to use skills to stay hidden back in 1998 on the PS1), Armored Core (the RPG where you pilot a mech that feels like a mech and has more lateral development than any other RPG I can remember at its time), and the Dark/Demon Souls games (the current franchise flagship that seems to be called a "throwback" simply because they're actually challenging).  I think they could give us an MMORPG beyond reckoning if they actually tried.

One developer that we sort of ignore because it isn't their forte (but could actually pull this kind of thing off) is Nintendo.  Unfortunately, they're sort of married to the dying console world, but as developers they've created some incredibly mechanically-sound games.  They can consistently market great games.  Hell, probably the RPG I played more than any other when I was a kid was a crossover between Nintendo and Square called Mario RPG.  They may be a bit too reliant on their old standbys and I'm really not looking forward to Mario World Online, but it could work.

Another off the top of my head that looks like they're actually figuring out how it would work is Rockstar.  Most of us know them as the company that makes Grand Theft Auto.  They're also the devs behind Red Dead Revolver, Midnight Club, Max Payne, and Manhunt (I also loved State of Emergency, but I don't think that's as well remembered these days).  I'm not entirely sure what they put out would work in an MMORPG context, but they're absolutely on the table as a group that could make an MMORPG work.  As long as they can make it acceptable to the ESRB.

I've brought up Capcom already and I think they'd be able to make something really worth drooling over.  That is, if your previous point couldn't be pointed directly at Capcom's business staff.  Capcom's development is really some of the best in the world, even after all this time.  Their business team is just driving them into the ground.  All told, though, I think they could do it if the "suits" would back off of the dev team and let them work.

I think another studio that could do it, but might have to fight the powers that be, is Lionhead studios (the people behind Fable and Black & White).  They've got a pedigree and a budget, but they're owned by Microsoft.  That doesn't bode well for them.  I've got a good feeling they could pull it off, though I suppose that was before the departure of Peter Molyneux.  Microsoft has a habit of neutering great developers after acquisition (e.g. Rare).

You know, now that I think about it, there are two developers I haven't had in mind, but have a background that would make them pretty prime candidates.  One of them is id Software.  They're mostly known for creating the id tech engines, but I sometimes forget that they were the company that essentially invented the FPS genre of games with Wolfenstein.  They're also the people who made Doom and Quake, though I remember them most fondly for their old Heretic and Hexen series that they helped Raven Studios make.  Heh, FPS RPGs.  The other that I almost completely forgot was Valve, and for the same reason (we only remember them for FPS games).  But those FPS games were all amazingly well-developed, and Valve has more money than Croesus at this point.  They might be able to pull it off.

There are actually probably a few Japanese developers who could make an impact if they stuck their heads in the game (Tecmo Koei?) but I don't know enough about them to know which one has enough muscle to pull it off.  Unfortunately, indie devs have big expectations, but they usually fail to execute something on that kind of scale.  Chasing Blizzard was too much for even big, respected devs like Bioware and Mythic.  I guess the era of the powerhouse indie developer is sort of gone, lots of the devs like Silicon Knights and Westwood are gone now, absorbed into larger and less impressive megaliths.  Maybe it's not fair to think Activision, MS, ZeniMAX, and EA aren't capable of developing the games themselves or being able to take their hands off and let some of the more impressive minds do their thing.  I guess that's a prejudice of mine; I've just seen too many standout developers have their feet cut off in service to their lords.  I've just also come to expect that small, independent developers struggle with long-view developement and, even if their games are sound, their ability to generate new and engaging content is severely limited.

And to be honest, indie developers have a bad habit of drowning in hype.  At least we don't EXPECT triple-A companies to make something amazing.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Parth Makeo - 04-28-2014

Many of the MMOs have shifted over the years in terms of target audience and "Generation"

For instance, in games like Ultima Online and Everquest there was a ton of grinding. Not Korean levels mind you but grinding that required one to "Live in a parent's basement" type of grind. Everquest was the king of that idea for Westerns and Ragnarok online. The games were made to make you work and earn things for it.

Then when Blizzard announced World of Warcraft (which I have been playing since 2005 and still love it besides Cataclysm...which had a nice, promising start but ended in a bland way) people were wondering if it even had the muscle to knock the king of MMOs off it's throne at the time. 

What blizzard did from the beginning is make it less of a chore and more appealing to the casual market. Don't believe me? What was the highest kill quest count that didn't require you to use an external vehicle? 25 mobs. Everquest had some quests grind out well over 50 by yourself. 
Attunement quests? They removed the monotony of requiring to do over a hundred things to get into one raid and wow cut that in half as well (WE WILL NEVER SPEAK OF HORDE SIDE ONY CHAIN! > : ( ).
Again, it was easier to get attuned to Molten Core, Upper Blackrock and Nefarian. While UBRS required you to put together a small item, MC and Nef was more or less touch a certain object. I remember running guildies through Blackrock Mountain and jumping the lava pits to grab that firestone to attune them to the core...and it took not even 15 mins.

The third thing was quests that actually rewarded you items. Early in wow there were not a lot of "Quest Items" as there are now since Cata but they were more frequent than Everquest. And since BC, you would get a new item every 2-4 quests. Not chains either. I've leveled enough through the old version of 1-60 before the revamp to make sure. 

So what was the key defining thing Blizzard did? Make it accessible to a more broader audience. They did something not only so ballsy but because it was a Warcraft Game (Being a warcraft nerd myself mind you) there was an established fanbase before. On launch and well into one year of wow the servers were unstable and lag was everywhere. There were more players in wow than what Blizzard anticipated and it grew ever so more over the years to their current world record of about 7 million subs. 


While i played the game since High school, I remember it changing a lot for me and what everyone's expectation of an MMO sub game should be (or be close to).
So when other MMO games attempted to steal it's thunder (by calling themselves Wow Killers and ending their lives) they soon fell under and became Free to play games. Some of those games were more complex than wow...and players were put off by that simply because they were afraid they couldn't be even with everyone.

Why am i saying this? It's because that since i returned to FF14 ARR for the time (scheduling to be Fri/sat/sun affairs for RP inbetween raiding) I noticed they changed a lot and made it more accessible than at launch. 
At launch, the idea of grinding a dungeon that offered no actual items but stones that you used to buy items was similar to the badge system...with one downfall. They made the items Ridiculously expensive for one piece. You would have to complete a run of a certain dungeon by speeding through it all about 20 times to just get one little piece of gear. Not only was it unappealing but because of my gear at the time, I felt like a dead weight to everyone. 

So i didn't play it for six or more months until they fixed it. And they did, but it still not appealing in the idea of Endgame so much. 
FF14 ARR to me is better as an RPer's MMO (Due to the details of characters actually showing rings, wrists and necks while having a variety of emotes) than a game game to me. That and their combat idea seems kind of boring, and i play a Mage on wow. 

I have tried other MMOs and especially Free to play stuff for a while, and even then I keep going back to World of Warcraft because of how simple it is and easy to get back in the mindset.

Wow is not the best MMO, far from it...but it's the most popular and the one everyone is playing because of how accessible it is. There is even a popular review on an 80 year old granny who RAIDS IN WOW! 
Also blind and deft people. 

The only big negative wow has at this moment is it's community sadly. Especially the RP community. They are full of asshats in public who godmod and break the lore constantly to a key.
So far i have seen some more well mannered RP in FF14 than WOW to me.

Ok i'm done rambling. What was i getting at? 

Until there is an MMO that can indeed knock wow completely off it's throne, I will be going back to it for the pals/guildies/raids and because I can easily remember how boss fights work without a wiki and know how to play a class by just getting in it's chair and placing the buttons.
That and gearing is pretty simple now.

P.S: Wow has some heavy grinds in the game as well. One of which is collecting 9,999 bones on Isle of Giants from elite dinos that drop anywhere between 1-40 a pop...and you currently can't solo the giant ones. So it's the 8-10 bones a drop for you Tongue

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 04-28-2014

(04-28-2014, 01:12 AM)Parth Makeo Wrote: FF14 ARR to me is better as an RPer's MMO (Due to the details of characters actually showing rings, wrists and necks while having a variety of emotes) than a game game to me. That and their combat idea seems kind of boring, and i play a Mage on wow.

While I personally have pretty much given up on WoW outside of some RP I still putter along in (haven't actually played the game since... I think just before that PvP patch in Mists), I definitely agree here with your opinion on XIV. The roleplay and the people in general are fantastic. The gameplay? Nnnnnot so much. I do, however, appreciate all the little roleplay-friendly details SE has put into the game - especially the slew of emotes (including facial expressions) and how your character looks at a target. Prior to this game, I played TERA, and we couldn't even WALK there, so the friendliness to rp is a breath of fresh air.

I might be tempted to start TERA back up again if they weren't doing absolutely dumbfuck things with their costume system, simply because the combat in that game is amazing. But... WildStar will have to settle that for now, and I do intend to poke ArcheAge (currently playing on the Russian client xD) more once I can manage to get into the beta/release, thanks to it being f2p and the sandbox thing is nice and new. And... hells, perhaps I'll keep an eye on Black Desert and see what happens with it. I'll admit the video of the city has me pondering things, but I know very little about the rest of the game...

Oh and D3. Because awesome.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Ignacius - 04-28-2014

(04-28-2014, 01:12 AM)Parth Makeo Wrote: Many of the MMOs have shifted over the years in terms of target audience and "Generation"

 <snip>


Blizzard is really a standout company in today's market.  There aren't many companies that are as concerned with the quality of their games.  Blizzard doesn't have a "good enough".  Best evidence of that is their Titan project.  They literally stood back, looked at the sum of what they had developed, and wiped the slate clean to start from the beginning.  I know a lot of people don't understand that, but I do.  There are times in any design process that you need to be ready to start from scratch because what you have is a dead end.

It shows in their game design.  I think WoW has one and only one weakness.  It has been around forever.  Honestly, I play FFXIV, I love FFXIV, I actually think the gameplay is great and the RP community is fun, but I'm playing FFXIV solely because I've played WoW since launch and I thought I needed to try other games so I have a sense of perspective.  And believe me, when Warlords of Draenor shows up, I will probably considerably reduce my FFXIV time.  WoW is an old game, an almost boringly familiar game, but I do still think it's the best MMORPG out there.  It isn't the best in every particular category, but there isn't another game out there with the same level of overall quality.  Some games have better PVP, some better PVE, some better mass raiding, some have better customization and itemization (okay, a lot have that), but nobody's game is as good overall as World of Warcraft.

And remember, in the time WoW has been out, Blizzard has released Starcraft II (RTS), Diablo 3 (Dungeoncrawler), and Hearthstone (Card Game), all to high critical acclaim.  All while maintaining expansions and patches for the largest MMORPG on the market.  That is an absolutely insane level of high-intensity output.  We'll rip on Blizzard for any perceived imperfection, while allowing anyone else to make the same mistake, simply because Blizzard is the "powers that be".  In every MMORPG's development, it's the elephant in the room.

And honestly, if anything finally does kill WoW and ever matches its subscription rate, it'll probably be a Blizzard game.  Very few other companies have the muscle and development pedigree to make these games and make them well.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if their next MMORPG is better than anything else on Earth.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - ArmachiA - 05-03-2014

Wildstar was a completely disappointing experience. *sigh* I was so hoping it was gonna be good.

RE: Future MMO Prospects - Naunet - 05-03-2014

I'm legitimately curious about what you found disappointing, ArmachiA. Elaborate! *pulls up a chair*