Hydaelyn Role-Players
At what point... - Printable Version

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At what point... - Mae - 04-08-2014

... does foul language cross the line from "It's RP, deal with it" to OOC'ly offensive?

I ask this because today I was reminded why I've been avoiding hanging around in the Quicksand. There is a certain someone who seems (to me, at least) to take a rather juvenile delight in throwing a certain word around, much like a toddler that's proud of their first word(s).

Now... in real life, I swear. Not constantly, but enough that I have no right to (and don't) flinch when I hear them being flung around me. In my lifetime, swearing has gone from being taboo and about shock-value to being commonplace in everyday language and conversation. I deal with truckers on a daily basis and I'm subjugated to some rather nasty language. About the only time swearing would really shock or disturb me would be if my saint of a grandmother said something as mild as 'damn' (anything stronger than that from her, I'd probably die of a heart attack. Or think she was replaced with a pod person). But, really? The word 'c--t' appearing ten times in the ten minutes I can stand being within 'earshot', almost every time I've encountered this person?* Am I wrong to think this is offensive BECAUSE it's excessive?

The first time I witnessed this person's behaviour I was on an alt and after the eighth or so time the word popped up, I did send a /tell politely (or at least I thought it was polite...) pointing out that the word was considered highly offensive by most and asked if they'd tone it down a bit. Server is NA/EU, so I erred on the side of caution that they might not be a native English speaker and while they had a good command of the language, might not realize the full impact of the word. The response I received was some permutation of "get a thicker skin or go away". I opted for the latter, because at that point I felt it wasn't going to be worth the time or aggravation trying to reason with this person. For a couple weeks, I felt like I was being pushed out of the Quicksand on several occasions because of this person arriving and continuing the behaviour. The past two-three weeks I haven't really noticed the behaviour because I've been so busy that I haven't had time to lurk. Then this afternoon, I ran through just to get my armor repaired... and there this person was, and in the time it took for me to get my repairs, the word popped up twice.

Now, I know I could just /blist and never 'hear' this person again. Problem with that for me, though, is that it's another roleplayer. It's not some mundane who has nothing better to do than troll RPers, or a gil-spammer. There is always the possibility that this person might walk up to me and try to engage me in RP (granted, after watching/listening to this person, I would come up with some IC reason to not stick around for very long), and I'd rather not have this person raging behind me and causing a scene that I'm oblivious to because I've got my camera pointed the other way. I suppose I could also just go back to avoiding the Quicksand, but I'm trying to get more involved with the overarching community and a -lot- more happens at/in/around the Quicksand than other locations in the game.

I'm also not saying "This particular word should be utterly banned!". It's the excess use that I have a problem with. In the... appropriate situation, I can understand it being used once in a conversation. MAYBE twice. A conversation being the entire period where involved people are in the presence of each other and conversing, from initial greeting to final farewell. Not every other line/sentence/phrase out of their mouth. And it doesn't even look natural when used that often.

... And before someone says "it's just text, it doesn't mean anything" and arguments about 'freedom' and 'immersion'... Text is words, words are thought, thought means everything. Freedom comes with a responsibility to others. And why should my immersion be ruined because another claims that toning down an excessive/offensive behaviour would be ruining their immersion? Our immersions should be ruined equally through compromise, damn it.


*This statement might be a tad bit exaggerated... it might've been closer to a twenty or thirty minute time period that first time. The amount of times the word appeared on my screen from that one person, though, is still fairly accurate.




Note: I've honestly been sitting here for about two hours, my mouse hovering over the 'post thread' button. I'm new here (to the forums and open community), and I know I'm running the risk of starting some serious drama if the person I'm talking about is a regular on these forums and gets uppity. I guess what it kind of boils down to, is me trying to figure out if this sort of behaviour is both common and acceptable with the community and if I'm going to have to come up with some equation that'll tell me when the number of RP'ers I have /blisted or avoid has become a greater detriment than me going back into the private RP sandbox I've been spending most of my time in.

RE: At what point... - 4wheel - 04-08-2014

Swearing is like drinking.  It should be done in moderation, otherwise you'll make a fool of yourself and people will look down on you for it.

RE: At what point... - Zhavi - 04-08-2014

Sometimes it is a regional thing. I have a friend from Sydney to whom it's a casual insult, often used in a friendly sort of context. I have a couple other friends from near Melbourne who don't. (most of the people I know in the Americas don't really use it at all, though some from the british isles do) It's the same way I use some swear words irreverently, and yet won't utter others and don't care to hear them.

I've likewise seen some authors use all sorts of swear words, depending on their characters and what sort of attitude they want to convey. I've also seen authors who go for a gentler approach, using things we'd consider mild (or don't consider swear words at all) and amping up their meaning in their setting.

My point is this: different people have different comfort levels about different things. While I tend towards (and encourage) people to be respectful of the people around them (in an ooc sense), I also tend to believe that when it comes to building a character, sometimes they will say and do things that I, on an ooc level, find absolutely repugnant (I've even written things that I still feel squeamish about a year or two later). If the player feels it's necessary to their character, well, okay, I won't argue with them about it so long as it's an ic thing and not leaking over from ooc (using a rp character as a platform to air controversial opinions/political agendas makes me cringe). That's just how I deal with things. It's okay to find people or characters offensive, and if you don't like the writing because of that, that's okay too. RP is supposed to be fun. If you're feeling uncomfortable, then you have every right to ignore the heck out of whoever it is should they feel their character's behavior is necessary (and judging from the reply, while it does sound rude, this player does).

It's not about being too thin skinned or whatever, really. Generally, everyone has a line that they won't cross, and I do think it's rude to oocly insult someone just because they made a request for something to stop or be done less, but whatever. Even so, I don't believe that writers have an obligation to be non-offensive; even if I find it distasteful, that's their thing. But, you know, opinions and stuff.

As for your situation, there's no easy solution. Probably what I would do if something was getting to me (f-g is the one I really hate hearing left and right) is /blist and then ask those I'm familiar with who frequent the area to let me know if there's some sort of interactive situation going on that I need to respond to. The other option is just to grit your teeth and bear it if the person is dead set on using the word.

RE: At what point... - FreelanceWizard - 04-08-2014

I tend to agree with 4wheel's sentiment. Foul language can get a particular point or mood across very effectively, but if it's overused, it loses its narrative power. That doesn't mean it has no place in RP -- far from it -- but it works best when employed with precision.

From an OOC standpoint, it's just a bad idea to throw around seriously salty language. The XIV terms of service note that "(t)he use of language that is generally considered unacceptable in a public venue" is a prohibited activity and can result in GM sanction. An RPer who's tossing around profanities that'd make even a drunken sailor blush is invariably going to run afoul of this rule if they're doing so in public channels, and "but it was just RP!" isn't a justification that's likely to sway a GM. With that in mind, my recommendation is always that RPers keep the swearing to whatever level the game uses in its quest texts and try to find creative ways to be profane that mesh with lore.

RE: At what point... - Knight Kat - 04-08-2014

Edit: Report him, and wait to see if doing so stops his behavior. If it doesn't, you'll really have no choice but to blacklist him.

I am sorry that your foray into the RP community was met with this discomfort. Most of us are great people with great characters. I, personally, never ICly use curses that I haven't heard spoken by NPCs. Most people seem to play that way.

RE: At what point... - ArmachiA - 04-08-2014

Openly swearing is against ToS, if you are really offended by it report him. Then he'll get a probation and probably stop doing it so much.

RE: At what point... - LandStander - 04-08-2014

Whats the word?! Is it beef curtain?!
[Image: tumblr_mjetwcB4gS1rxhuq8o1_400.gif]

RE: At what point... - Knight Kat - 04-08-2014

(04-08-2014, 04:22 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Openly swearing is against ToS, if you are really offended by it report him. Then he'll get a probation and probably stop doing it so much.

This^

RE: At what point... - Dogberry - 04-08-2014

Swearing is something I try to ride the line on. Anyone who's spent time around Dogberry knows that he talks like a sailor. I've actually had people sending me tells saying things like "Wow, a sailor who actually talks like a sailor! Awesome!" I swear openly and publicly, but I try to never swear at anyone. The difference being that Dogberry is more likely to exclaim "Mother F'er" out of dismay than he is to call someone one (unless he likes them and means it as a compliment.) I do appreciate that nobody's reported me so far!

RE: At what point... - FreelanceWizard - 04-08-2014

(04-08-2014, 10:04 AM)Dogberry Wrote: I do appreciate that nobody's reported me so far!

I think most RPers are loathe to report people for language, since they wouldn't want to be reported themselves for their occasional profanities. Smile Part of that "gentlemen's agreement," though, is not going too far over the line such that profanity that might be offensive IC becomes offensive OOC.

If you're on the fence about calling in a GM, consider both the attitude of the player in question (who refuses to turn down profanity when asked nicely OOC?) and the word used. The word in question is pretty offensive to many USians (though consider this Slate article) and, to be completely frank, others are probably also offended but just not speaking up.

RE: At what point... - Eva - 04-08-2014

I tend to have a thick skin about this sort of thing so apologies in advance if my response isn't quite what you're looking for.  It is one of the major differences between who I am and who my character is.  But my thought is that maybe there's a solution therein...  that is, perhaps if your character is averse to that sort of language or might react in some way as to mitigate it.

Eva as a motherly sort has often grudgingly endured a lot of the foul language.  I don't think she's openly "called anyone down" for it, but I also don't think she's been subjected to it to the same degree that you're describing, and I think that might push her past her threshold.  I don't participate much in that sort of RP (though I might branch out a bit soon to see what I am missing) so it's hard for me to fathom how she might react, but leaving is always an option.  While OOC I could probably endure the senseless string of cursing, I can't see my character abiding it IC and she'd probably be forced to leave if it persisted past a sensible level.  So I suppose the outcome is the same there, if for entirely opposite reasons.

I'm always looking for IC ways to accomplish this sort of thing though.  As others have pointed out, a little foul language here and there adds flair.  Eva herself hardly ever curses, so the one or two times it has happened it's kind of made other characters [that know her] stop and stare in shock or w/e.  And in that way it's kind of a powerful thing.

But it seems to me that if a character is dropping the C word (or F-bombs or w/e curses) left and right for no good reason, wouldn't other characters kind of step in and call this character down for it, like in-character?  "Dude, what's the matter with you, there's ladies present."  "Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?" etc.

I think there might be an opportunity to deal with an IC situation in an IC manner.  But if it continued to persist on after that, it might not be an IC thing and at that point I'd question whether it's some form of harrassment (particularly if others are asking for a stop to it, ICly or OOCly) and should probably be reported.  I hope that makes sense.

I might have to check out the Quicksands one of these days though, just to see what I've been missing and possibly put on a stern face and waggle a finger at some hooligan's antics.  Dodgy

RE: At what point... - Ignacius - 04-08-2014

Just do what you would do in real life.  If someone swears occasionally, it's okay.  If they're entertaining about it, it's hilarious.  If they're overdoing it, you are allowed to treat them as if they're uneducated and overcompensating.  That's what I would do.

I've played a character who didn't just swear, but said some pretty awful things while doing it (such as threatening to chew someone's liver out through their fucking chest and other children's stories).  But I don't think it was the language that was excessive as much as he was a biker thug and acted like a biker thug.  The problem with cursing a LOT isn't that it becomes ineffectual, it's that it has the opposite effect.  People don't see you as a scary biker thug, they see you as a seventeen year old with a leather jacket who can't afford a car so he rides a dirtbike.

Just treat him with belittling dismissal for a while.  That'll sort him out.

RE: At what point... - Mae - 04-08-2014

Reporting is the last thing I want to do, though I won't lie and say I hadn't considered it the second time I had to leave the area. It would be hypocritical for me to do it, though, since my character has sworn before, and will almost certainly do so again in the future. Again, it's not that the word was used once or twice in a conversation. Used like that, I would probably never have noticed. It was the excessive use that caught my attention and I found offensive... and the response I received when I asked that they tone it down (I did not ask them to stop).

In the end, I suppose I'll have to /blist the person. To quote a favorite character in a book, I "do more damage out of simple irritation than most men can do in a towering rage." It's the reason I've been just removing myself from the situation instead of ICly mocking the situation. OOCly, I'm not a nice person when I get irritated.

RE: At what point... - Ignacius - 04-08-2014

(04-08-2014, 01:38 PM)Mae Wrote: Reporting is the last thing I want to do, though I won't lie and say I hadn't considered it the second time I had to leave the area. It would be hypocritical for me to do it, though, since my character has sworn before, and will almost certainly do so again in the future. Again, it's not that the word was used once or twice in a conversation. Used like that, I would probably never have noticed. It was the excessive use that caught my attention and I found offensive... and the response I received when I asked that they tone it down (I did not ask them to stop).

In the end, I suppose I'll have to /blist the person. To quote a favorite character in a book, I "do more damage out of simple irritation than most men can do in a towering rage." It's the reason I've been just removing myself from the situation instead of ICly mocking the situation. OOCly, I'm not a nice person when I get irritated.

I'd much rather get on his case ICly.  I mean, how many people run out cursing as much as possible that are then taken seriously by anyone?  I'm kindly surprised nobody's given him a bollocking yet.

RE: At what point... - Crisiet - 04-08-2014

There are swears and curses used by npcs a lot. I see no reason to go beyond those. Then again, my character isn't one to swear his head off anyway. 
I swear a lot irl and it doesn't tend to bother me (though I've never been a fan of the C-word) but doing so several times in one sentence "just because" sounds terribly overcompensating. There are better means of getting a character's attitude across, imo.