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Sage/Red Mage - possible? - JFrombaugh - 04-20-2014
Red Mages are a FF tradition - someone who can wield black and white magic together but not as good as their more specialized counterparts. Sages are basically advanced Red Mages that are extremely rare.
There's many instances of FF characters using both, but it seems like XIV is a universe where it is far less possible than others. Many players have leveled WHM and BLM to Level 50 so they could heal and DPS on the same character, but do you think it would be possible to be a practitioner of both White and Black magic in an In-character sense?
Both schools seem to be at odds both in the past and present from what I've read, and even though Thamaturgy uses one's own aether, I highly doubt the elementals and the Padjal would be fine at all with my character's justification for drawing power from the Void.
I was wondering about this because I had an idea of my character wanting to learn both for the purposes of aetherial balance and eventually accepting as a Scion that both are useful and vital to the balance in their own way, without having to deal with the dogmas of the guilds. It could also allow her to bypass the Job sections of the questlines in a RP sense.
Plus it was at one time rumored that one way to unlock Red Mage could be to have both BLM and WHM at 50. I would guess the lore behind Red Mages will probably be that they used to be elite soldiers who used both back in the days of the War of the Magi, but with those days long gone and the arts outlawed, few if any exist today, and in any case we haven't found a Soul Crystal or someone who could teach us yet.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Kailia - 04-20-2014
What I did for my character was went the conjurer direction. In Conjurer, you to wield the elements and utilize the aether from the environment itself. Well fire, thunder and ice, are basically an element themselves. So I had my character go the elementalist direction to learn the thaumaturge spells IC, without even approaching the thaumaturge guild.
So while Sage/Red Mage might not be doable right now, an elementalist style can be done IC. Because as you said, the two schools don't really see eye to eye on how to utilize aether. The only spell group my character doesn't have IC, is the actual black magic itself as a black mage. But there's very few black magic spells anyways.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - FreelanceWizard - 04-21-2014
There's a lot of different possibilities here, especially as there's an argument one can make that because the game allows you to have both jobs, you can RP that you have both jobs. Conversely, the lore does seem to make it difficult to be trained both as a White Mage and a Black Mage, for while those who can teach Black Magic likely would have no issue with a White Mage learning it, the Padjali certainly wouldn't be fine with teaching a known Black Mage the art of Succor. Of course, one can write a story that works around this, but there's some pretty significant differences in how people read the lore regarding White Mages and the current state of the elementals that might cause some OOC issues in RP.
For what it's worth, the approach I've taken with L'yhta (who has all of the magic classes at 50) is to frame it as her being extremely adept with magic and working on a sort of "grand unified theory" of the art. She's skilled in a wide array of magicks through her research into patterns of Aether; I don't put her out as a user of Succor or wielder of Black Magic, but rather as someone who knows a lot of different spells, is talented in all three techniques of Aetheric manipulation (conjury, thaumaturgy, and arcanima), and who has figured out some ways to combine them to produce substantial effects. That some of her spells may be similar to descriptions of the magicks of legend is mere coincidence.
The only job I play "straight" is Summoner, because the concept of the Egi actually ties in nicely with her "pattern magic" theory and offers some opportunities for IC discussion and character development.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Spiritual Machine - 04-21-2014
I only know Red Mages from FFXI myself. They weren't meant to be terribly powerful with White or Black Magic--they were jacks of all trades but masters of none, with their forte being enfeebling magic. As sort of an unexpected side effect of their potent job abilities, however, they made pretty excellent healers.
It seems like in FFXIV, their job abilities got incorporated into Thaumaturges, and their duality and magical role resembles what you've got with Arcanists. I'd say to build something like a "Red Mage" you character could just be fairly well-learned in all magical fields, like FreelanceWizard's character. I believe cross-class abilities support this perspective, and I'm actually taking a very similar route with my own character--sort of a contemporary approach to aetherial manipulation that embraces function over form.
I don't think a mastery of Black Mage or White Mage levels is feasible, but that probably isn't necessary either--when has power ever counted for more than versatility in roleplay, anyway?
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - JFrombaugh - 04-21-2014
If I decided to go this route with my character, here's what I'd do for a background story:
Miranda learned Conjury first on the grounds that it appealed most to her, and she was drawn to the beauty of the forest. But the longer she stayed in the Black Shroud, the more she realized how arrogant and sometimes downright hostile towards adventurers Gridanians are. Over time she became increasingly disillusioned, guarded and aloof, and eventually she saw how Papalymo still fought to protect Gridania despite being a Thaumaturge.
So she decided to learn Thaumaturgy in secret, outside of the Twelvewsood, both out of curiosity and as a necessary means of fending for herself. As she reached the advanced levels of both, this led her to have a sort of idealistic rebel against the Padjal, believing that both White and Black Magic can be used for good, in a role that calls for balance in the world, all without letting the wrong person know and getting excommunicated.
Or she could have left the official order on her own accord upon joining the Scions, thus leaving her free to practice her arts on her own. Like Spiritual Machine said, I doubt that Job-level mastery of both will be required lorewise to become a Red Mage, and it would allow me to ignore the fact that Miranda wouldn't particularly get along well with the higher up WHMs.
Another cool part of this background story is that I'm thinking about making Miranda's last name "Koyo" (Japanese for fall colors). This would be a very meaningful name given that the season Autumn lies between Summer (peak of life) and Winter (death), and as a season it is also often associated with melancholia.
But if it would be hard to live a lie and soon she would be found out, I guess Arcanist would work too.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Yangh - 04-21-2014
An interesting question. I do think its worth looking at your character carrying multiple foci such as a wand for Conjury, a one handed wepaon for what ever THM uses and a book for Arcanist. That way you could just swap between the weapons to get the desired effect.
I'll say this, I've been looking for plausible way to RP a Blue Mage for a while now and if its possible to make a work around for Red Mage then I still have a glimmer of hope!
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - TheLastCandle - 04-21-2014
My guess is, at some point in the future, we'll see a Red Mage class. It's too iconic to leave out of an FF game containing classic jobs from the series' heyday. But I also think its abilities will be closely tied to fencing, blending spell and swordplay, etc. In the meantime, I think being a dabbler in multiple magical fields is a fine compromise for a character concept like this.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Noeh - 04-21-2014
(04-21-2014, 09:38 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote: My guess is, at some point in the future, we'll see a Red Mage class. It's too iconic to leave out of an FF game containing classic jobs from the series' heyday. But I also think its abilities will be closely tied to fencing, blending spell and swordplay, etc. In the meantime, I think being a dabbler in multiple magical fields is a fine compromise for a character concept like this.In the game we do have a need for another melee class. On top of that there's a ton of elemental empowering spells for weapons that only monsters can use. It would be nice to see those put to use if not on Red Mage then on an actual Fencer class. I think they're probably going to merge the two kinda like what you were saying.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Spiritual Machine - 04-21-2014
(04-21-2014, 05:59 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: If I decided to go this route with my character, here's what I'd do for a background story:
Miranda learned Conjury first on the grounds that it appealed most to her, and she was drawn to the beauty of the forest. But the longer she stayed in the Black Shroud, the more she realized how arrogant and sometimes downright hostile towards adventurers Gridanians are. Over time she became increasingly disillusioned, guarded and aloof, and eventually she saw how Papalymo still fought to protect Gridania despite being a Thaumaturge.
So she decided to learn Thaumaturgy in secret, outside of the Twelvewsood, both out of curiosity and as a necessary means of fending for herself. As she reached the advanced levels of both, this led her to have a sort of idealistic rebel against the Padjal, believing that both White and Black Magic can be used for good, in a role that calls for balance in the world, all without letting the wrong person know and getting excommunicated.
Or she could have left the official order on her own accord upon joining the Scions, thus leaving her free to practice her arts on her own. Like Spiritual Machine said, I doubt that Job-level mastery of both will be required lorewise to become a Red Mage, and it would allow me to ignore the fact that Miranda wouldn't particularly get along well with the higher up WHMs.
Another cool part of this background story is that I'm thinking about making Miranda's last name "Koyo" (Japanese for fall colors). This would be a very meaningful name given that the season Autumn lies between Summer (peak of life) and Winter (death), and as a season it is also often associated with melancholia.
But if it would be hard to live a lie and soon she would be found out, I guess Arcanist would work too.
Not a bad idea, but why would she have to learn Thaumaturgy in secret? Why would she be excommunicated for this, especially given Papalymo's status as a Gridanian hero? I haven't really seen anything to indicate that a path of embracing more than one approach to magic would be unacceptable.
For one thing, the game pretty much encourages you to have one character that can learn any and all fields of magic. For another, the guilds are never played up as being discriminating against anyone who isn't evil, nor particularly binding to their members. Finally, Thaumaturgy and Conjury are not considered to be nearly as powerful nor as dangerous as Black and White Magic, so comparisons and anxiety over combining the two wouldn't happen.
All E-Sumi-Yan ever says about Thaumaturgy is that the destructive power of Conjury doesn't rival it, but it makes up for this by being much better at protecting the user and their allies.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Yssen - 04-21-2014
One of the more interesting things they have done with the lore for XIV is in how they treat magic. In previous FF's they really have not had other disciplines based on style, source, or theory. Classification was based on the effect or thing the magic manipulated. In XIV each casting class has a different theory or source for casting.
In brief rundown.Â
Thaumaturgy is sourced from the caster themselves, relying on the willpower, life force, and personal aether of the caster. Simply put, it is somewhat internal in focus.
Conjury manipulates elements outside the caster. The caster channels external aether of nature and the surrounding environment by being in harmony with it.
Arcanistry (similar to Conjury) manipulates elements outside of the caster, but in a more intellectual and science based manner than Conjury. Formulas, strategems, and mathmatics are used to manipulate and change the aether flow of the environment.
This is not to say the streams do not cross. To keep this non spoilery, they do. There are plenty of cases where quest text shows the streams crossing (even MNK text, which can really bake your noodle or make ya scream "awesome.")
It is up to each individual to do their own thing, but in essence we have a world where there are several different schools of magic and aethereal manipulation. There is really nothing that says a character cannot pull of the same effects as Conjury with Thaumaturgy, or even learn and use both methods. They are not mutually exclusive. It is all just a matter of study and dedication (and probably not telling the more zealotic of each methods practitioners that there bible is a lie). ICly, yeah Sage and Red Mage are totally possible. I would caution on using jobs not in the game yet though. New casters may be added that have completely different approaches to magic use, and that can get you stuck.
To sum it all up. There is no "Black Magic" or "White Magic" (save for the specific job ability spells for BLM and WHM) as we know it ICly. There is Conjury, Thaumaturgy, and Aranisty. Each able to pull off a series of effects more easily than their counter parts, but on occasion the streams do cross. It is up to each person to determine how their character approaches this. Do they use the same method to pull of a similar effect? Are they combining disciplines and methods? Are they tapping the raw aether of the planet with out the need for silly man made methods? Maybe somewhere in between?Â
It is a bunch to think about, and when you have figured all that out you get to add magitek to the soup. Wheeeee! ;p
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - JFrombaugh - 04-21-2014
(04-21-2014, 10:47 AM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Not a bad idea, but why would she have to learn Thaumaturgy in secret? Why would she be excommunicated for this, especially given Papalymo's status as a Gridanian hero? I haven't really seen anything to indicate that a path of embracing more than one approach to magic would be unacceptable.
For one thing, the game pretty much encourages you to have one character that can learn any and all fields of magic. For another, the guilds are never played up as being discriminating against anyone who isn't evil, nor particularly binding to their members. Finally, Thaumaturgy and Conjury are not considered to be nearly as powerful nor as dangerous as Black and White Magic, so comparisons and anxiety over combining the two wouldn't happen.
All E-Sumi-Yan ever says about Thaumaturgy is that the destructive power of Conjury doesn't rival it, but it makes up for this by being much better at protecting the user and their allies.
I was going more by the Jobs rather than the arts.
But another explanation many people have on the subject is that even if a character DOES canonically know the abilities from the WHM storyline, that still doesn't qualify them as a true White Mage because they only bothered to learn what the Padjal deemed the least damaging and most fitting for them. 80% of the spells you use still come from Conjury after all, and Ken-E-Senna is the most powerful Padjal despite (presumably) not actually knowing any White Magic.
But, you could also make a strong case for the Job storylines not being "canon". The problem with that is that it's Black Magic that's used for balance (sealing the Voidgate and other portals to the void) while Thaumaturgy is simply used as a means of offense.
The other problem with planning Miranda out to be a Red Mage is that (obviously) it hasn't been confirmed that the storyline will be unlocked through maxxing out both the WHM and BLM soul crystals, nor that the final Red Mage will use abilities from both base classes. Yoshi-P simply stated in an early interview that this could be a possible way of implementing classes that he really wants to do eventually, such as Samurai and Red Mage. But if he decides it would be easier to make it a Job for a new Fencer class that simply uses magical weapon buffs (and is thus different from a classic Red Mage), then it all comes down to gameplay design.
(04-21-2014, 09:38 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote: My guess is, at some point in the future, we'll see a Red Mage class. It's too iconic to leave out of an FF game containing classic jobs from the series' heyday. But I also think its abilities will be closely tied to fencing, blending spell and swordplay, etc. In the meantime, I think being a dabbler in multiple magical fields is a fine compromise for a character concept like this.
Personally I would really like to see something similar to the Harbinger soul from RIFT. He could have access to abilities like Blaze Spikes and Enfire that allow him to add elemental power to his melee attacks whilst also having combo ability buffs that allow him to weave CNJ and THM abilities into his melee rotation for extra damage and self-healing. There might be a unique weapon obtained from the Soul Crystal similar to artifact gear, as well as a Cleric Stance-type buff to get around the problem of Intelligence and Strength.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Sounsyy - 04-21-2014
The main problem I foresee with Red Mage is that when it is released, it will have to be quite different than the "classic" idea of the Red Mage job, just like how most of the classic FF jobs already implemented in game are quite different thematically than their predecessors. Traditionally, Red Mage is a jack of all trades. A fencer, a black mage, a white mage, and a (de)buffer all rolled into one. The obvious problems with this are:
-Swords are claimed by GLA both lorewise and via armoury system.
-"Succor" is the magic of the Elementals and lorewise exclusive to White Mages.
-XIV does not do pure buff or debuff classes. Every class has to have offensive and defensive capabilities for solo purposes. Every single class already has several debuffs of their own. A debuff class would be pretty superfluous. Not to mention, debuff classes suffer in fights where bosses are immune to most debuffs.
-No two classes can use non cross-classed abilities. For example, Red Mage could not use Fire.
What I can see is a melee fighter of some kind who, instead of actually using conjury or thaumaturgy spells, uses magic that captures the essence of those spells. Similar to how Egis are essences of the Primals. Spells like Enfire. Not actually casting fire, but imbuing their weapon with a certain element, which will either grant them a particular stance or buff or perhaps unlock specific abilities. If they make it so that by comboing certain elements and stances back to back, Red Mage could make for a very fun and busy job. And it'd be cool if the last tier of whatever melee combo could end in a quickcast magic blast.
(04-21-2014, 04:36 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: But another explanation many people have on the subject is that even if a character DOES canonically know the abilities from the WHM storyline, that still doesn't qualify them as a true White Mage because they only bothered to learn what the Padjal deemed the least damaging and most fitting for them. 80% of the spells you use still come from Conjury after all, and Ken-E-Senna is the most powerful Padjal despite (presumably) not actually knowing any White Magic.
Actually a White Mage is defined as a user of Succor. So the use of any Succor magic would set you apart as a White Mage, not a conjurer. The player character's knowledge of Succor may be minimal in comparison to a Padjal who has studied it their whole life, but having the ability to even use Succor still makes you a White Mage.
Kan-E-Senna is actually a White Mage as well, by the way.
(04-21-2014, 04:36 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: The problem with that is that it's Black Magic that's used for balance (sealing the Voidgate and other portals to the void) while Thaumaturgy is simply used as a means of offense.
Black Magic is chaos and destruction. White Magic is control and balance. Black Magic is usually what opens the Void. It rarely seems to close it. Where as White Magic is used to seal Voidgates on a couple occasions.
And Thaumaturgy is not purely offensive. Thaumaturgy can restore one's life force and aether, as well as commune with or resurrect the dead. Something which Black Magic had never accomplished.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - Spiritual Machine - 04-21-2014
For now I wouldn't worry too much about what plans might be implemented in future expansions, because those will surely be as unique from what is available to us now as the Jobs are from their respective Classes, if not moreso.
I'd shy away from using terms like "Red Mage" in-game though, as the term is not canon. I once saw someone in the Quicksand touting their study of "Blue Magic" and "Green Magic" and I didn't think that was entirely kosher. Not every roleplay idea requires a label, especially one with a meaning that could change when and if it's added to FFXIV.
Someone mentioned earlier the difference in aetherial manipulation between DoM classes, and I think it's important to note that contrary to what was said, Arcanists do not manipulate aether outside of their bodies as Conjurers do. I just did the Arcanist guild starter quest last night on a character, and the art is described clearly as one that takes advantage of ones own aether stores and shapes this aether via arcane geometry in order to influence the world.
So it's obvious how Conjury is unique to other disciplines. As to how the field of Arcanima differs from Thaumaturgy, the latter pulls aether deep from within oneself, channels the power into a foci and directs that force into the world. The core practice of Thaumaturgy is to then shift ones aetherial aspect through deep understanding, and encourage a renewal of ones aether stores.
Arcanima, on the other hand, relies less on arcane introspection and more on a calculated and measured understanding of the flow of aether itself. In other words it's less feeling and more thought. Arcanima developed by way of boiling down natural phenomena into mathematics. So it seems like what you do is take preconceived equations, express them geometrically, use this geometry to shape your aether and exert it upon an entity or the environment in order to create or recreate a desired effect.
The practice of Arcanima is described to be very difficult and mentally taxing, because the limitations of their art require optimal application--employing the right equation in the right situation--thus demanding mathematical prowess and tactical insight.
In contrast, Thaumaturgy is described as being more physically taxing, as an inexperienced Mage can drain all of their mana and be left without energy, or overdraw from their life essence and perish. So Arcanima can give you more for less--if used effectively.
Now, in my opinion, you do already see a bit of crossover in disciplines if you look hard enough. Off the top of my head, I imagine Thaumaturgy employs some arcane geometry in any ritual requiring more than one participant or focus (though I see this behavior more frequently practiced by cultists for summoning). In the Summoner job quest line, meanwhile, your mentor instructs you to use deep introspection to formulate and draw forth the captured essence of a Primal imprinted on your aether using an Allagan soul crystal as a focus, which is not at all unlike basic Thaumaturgy.
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - JFrombaugh - 04-21-2014
This is some advice a person on a different forum had for me:
"I do not know how far you've delved into the 2.1 sections of the story, but I'm quite confident Miranda would be fiercely pleased to have a role in the Scions by the end of story at present. Philosophically its right on track. Having said that the quarreling and bickering of the Cities and the politics of infighting promised in the next patch will likely make some fascinating story fodder for you.
Miranda could easily be a cnj, thm and arc. Jobs wise as stated above, each job leaves room for your character to be an independent, itinerant version of each. The Paladin is told to not be a servant sworn to the Sultana, but to all people for example. The jobs most in keeping however, are indeed Whm (not fully committed to Gridania's vision but blessed by THE whm guru to serve beyond), Blm (a wizard who weilds destructive power but using it to safeguard the world from the void). Or Smn (a rebel researcher seeking the lost arts as a way of fighting the primals). All of them allow an off the beaten path direction for storycraft and I think a clever enough effort could write two or three of them into one interpid soul. Why however? What is her passion? What is she protecting, what is worth going to war for her?"
Other RPers, however, seem to think that lorewise, it is very difficult if not impossible for a character to be a Job class and that the storylines are just a way of telling a story to make you feel powerful. So what do you think? Would it be pushing Mary Sue territory to have one or two Job classes IC?
RE: Sage/Red Mage - possible? - FreelanceWizard - 04-21-2014
The similarities among the three disciplines of Aetheric manipulation are definitely little interesting bits of lore. That's what gave me the idea for L'yhta's magic theory, which is actually rooted in arcanima at its core -- but I digress.
(04-21-2014, 08:04 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: Other RPers, however, seem to think that lorewise, it is very difficult if not impossible for a character to be a Job class and that the storylines are just a way of telling a story to make you feel powerful. So what do you think? Would it be pushing Mary Sue territory to have one or two Job classes IC?
There are some very strong opinions on this forum on this topic, especially where WHM is concerned given the 2.x quest line and the 1.x lore.
I think it's safer from a "how many people can you RP with" standpoint to eschew most Jobs entirely, at least for a while; many of the Job storylines take the stance that you are the first if not only PC with access to the Job, and while it's easy enough to write around that given the Job descriptions on the official website, doing so will rub some players the wrong way. Of the Job storylines I've personally done, only PLD and SMN really lend themselves to "anyone could do/be this." BLM and WHM largely close that door, and SCH is extremely iffy (it depends on how common Nymian faeries are, which is presumably "not very"). All that aside, having three to four Allagan soul stones for Jobs and the legendary powers associated with them is likely to grate on some nerves because, again, the lore indicates that Jobs are rare.
Personally, I don't have any issue with people being able to do ICly what they've earned in game so long as they have a narrative justification for it that largely jives with lore. Further, since adventurers are a tiny subset of Eorzea's population, Jobs being common there doesn't make them common in the world, and so the rarity established by lore is maintained. However, not everyone feels that way, particularly about Jobs -- and thus my caution about going down that path with your storyline.
EDIT: Oh, and IMO, Mary Sue is less about the power and abilities of your character and more about how they're used narratively and you (and your character's) attitude about them. It's entirely possible to play an extremely powerful character that's flawed, human, and definitively not a Mary Sue, just as it's quite easy to play a completely inept character who whips out every Sue trope in the book.