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Sunseeker Names - K'nahli - 05-30-2014
Hello everyone,
This conversation came up between myself and K'mih(Clover Blake) and I just wanted to see what everyone else seemed to think on the matter. Currently she is harbouring a mentality towards Seeker names that I, myself, had back in the beginning of the creation of our tribe though I have since wandered to the other end of the spectrum personally. I'd ask that you please read the entire opening post before replying and voting.
And so the question is:
How do you view the concept of dropping the prefix of one's name, particularly when it comes to family/friends/loved ones?
I am guessing that the normal view is that it's simply shortening the name and making it less formal which would of course imply a greater closeness than someone who would include the prefix. This was my initial belief on it too but I have long since come to believe that the prefix is not just some identifier that is thrown before every name but IS actually a part of the name itself and is just as important as the given name. Having said that, I don't disagree with anyone who chooses to drop it nor does it really bother me, though I personally believe that it is less common.
In the cases of two of my tribe members who have short 1-2 syllable names I consider it especially important and an absolute integral part of their name in order for it to remain largely recognisable - these examples being:
K'mih (Kumi // Coo - Mii)
K'ile  (Kyle)
Stripping them of their prefix would make them sound very different whereas if you take the example of slightly longer names such as K'nahli and K'tahjha then merely dropping the prefix wouldn't steal much from the overall sound of the name. It's possible to consider the shorter names listed above as exceptions however, and I can understand cases where the given name that follows the prefix sounds different, but unique and interesting on it's own - though let's exclude such cases for the sake of ease.
As a final reference, I'd like to mention an example of a longer name that wouldn't have quite the same sound and(perhaps this is merely preference, but..) would in fact sound a lot less pleasant; that name of course being Y'shtola (Yash-toe-la).
In summary, I think dropping the prefix is fine but I do not see it as a practice done largely across the board even in the case of loved ones and merely falls down to the preferences of each individual miqo'te. I personally wouldn't make a case where two people who address K'nahli, one by "nahli" the other by "K'nahli", as one where the person who uses the shortened version is more likely to be close to her on a personal level. It simply doesn't strike me as that significant. To me, dropping the prefix can possibly suggest closeness, but contrastingly, using the prefix does not suggest distance. Again, this can vary from miqo'te to miqo'te, though I would never accept it as a 'rule'.
Though my opinion means little here, what I'd like to know yours. Please include relevant information such as if you are tribal/non-tribal, if your name was designed with the intent of being used without the prefix, if you're new to miqo'te or if you have an opinion on the matter but do not actually play one yourself ^^
RE: Sunseeker Names - FreelanceWizard - 05-30-2014
So, the lore says: "In colloquial speech amongst close friends and companions, sometimes the tribe letter will be dropped from the first name." On that basis, those who know about the traditional culture of Seekers of the Sun might assume -- lacking other context -- that a dropping of the tribe letter indicates informality and closeness. However, from the word "sometimes," we know that this isn't a universal rule. Each miqo'te is going to have his or her own interpretation of when that's appropriate, if ever. Y'shtola clearly doesn't go in for it even among her close friends, whereas F'lhammin does with her daughter. There's definitely personality differences between the two of them which may account for their choices. From a "prescriptive" lore standpoint, I don't think we have enough information to say how common the devs intended prefix-dropping to be other than "it happens."
As for actual character examples, L'yhta (raised tribal, but now quite proudly Lominsan) doesn't typically drop her prefix, though she's getting close enough now to a few people to be willing to do so. In her tribe, only immediate family members would drop the prefix, and then only in private. Despite no longer being even remotely affiliated with her tribe, she still holds onto this particular bit of deep enculturation. However, her nephew who's followed her back to Limsa Lominsa, L'ehli, drops his prefix whenever he's friends with someone as a show of solidarity and as a sort of way of thumbing his nose at his tribe. Another miqo'te she knows, R'kyala (raised tribal and with a more positive view of it than L'yhta), rarely uses her prefix and goes by Kyala with just about everyone. K'lyhia and L'asah, two other miqo'te in the Ivory Tower, seem to never drop their prefixes and certainly not in public.
Among player characters, there seems to be a lot of variance in behavior, so I agree that, given the lore and the way players interpret it, this is one of those situations where individual preference is key. There's no real right or wrong in when, if ever, a character chooses to drop their prefix. That said, I think the lore makes it clear that it's reasonable to assume -- without other context or knowledge of that Seeker's personality -- that when a miqo'te drops his or her tribe prefix, it's a sign of informality and closeness. Taking the example of R'kyala above, anyone who knows her knows that she doesn't see it that way at all (except for maybe the "informality" part).
RE: Sunseeker Names - Warren Castille - 05-30-2014
Scooped by the lore buff, who put it a lot more officially and eloquently. I was just going to remark that friends have nicknames for each other. Dropping the letter doesn't sound any different to me than calling someone Mike instead of Michael or Liz instead of Elizabeth.
Lots of syllables take time to say. In relaxed conversation, I'd feel strange if someone said my full name every time they addressed me.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Clover - 05-30-2014
Thank you for your input, Wizard and Warren!
Truth be told, when I started RPing miqo'tes, I didn't pay much attention to the letter dropping. I read "sometimes it happens" and assumed it'd be a rare case. I also liked how the characters' names sounded with the initial letter. For some reason, now I feel that perhaps I should have gone with the name dropping from the beginning.
My miqo'te is supposed to be very friendly and very close to her sister K'nahli, but so far she hasn't dropped the initial letter when addressing her. Since my perspective has changed, now I feel that it's unnatural for K'mih to use her sister's full name. What could her reason be? Habit? I guess I'll have to take that route if I want to explain their closeness without letter dropping *sweatdrops*.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Warren Castille - 05-30-2014
Doesn't need a grand reason. Sometimes people's attitudes just drift. No reason she wouldn't just realize it was more comfortable just like you did!
RE: Sunseeker Names - K'nahli - 05-30-2014
Thank you both for your replies and the lore reference! ;Â Â That's definitely what I was hoping to hear personally. Everyone has their own preference when it comes to the way they are called upon/spoken to and I don't think that an inclusion of the prefix has to imply distance or some form of personal barrier, though it certainly can of course.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Kailia - 05-30-2014
For my character, her name is K'ailia, which she pronounces as Kay-lee-ah. So when you drop the K, it has an entirely different sound, and to me, that's not her name. So to me, the tribe letter became part of my characters name which is based off of other games incarnation of this character which were named Kailia.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Clover - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 10:46 AM)K Wrote: For my character, her name is K'ailia, which she pronounces as Kay-lee-ah. So when you drop the K, it has an entirely different sound, and to me, that's not her name. So to me, the tribe letter became part of my characters name which is based off of other games incarnation of this character which were named Kailia.About pronunciations, I *think* K'ailia's name shouldn't actually be "Kay-lee-ah". Unless I'm mistaken and understood it completely wrong (which could be the case), the lore stated that the initial K is read as ku/coo, followed by any name. The sound of the initial letter is not mixed with the following name; it has its own sound, unrelated to what follows it.
RE: Sunseeker Names - C'kayah Polaali - 05-30-2014
Over time, I've come to the position that it's a formality thing, that dropping the prefix is akin to calling Robert "Bob", which sounds pat, but it really does cover all the edge cases: Some Miqo'te prefer their tribe letter dropped, so they'll say "Call me Kayah". Others don't like the sound of their name without their tribe letter, so they'll insist on keeping it. Some like to let their friends and family use a more familiar form, etc.
I don't think there's a cut and dried guideline for all Miqo'te here, though. In the case of K'mih, for instance, her name sounds good with the prefix but a little awkward without it, so I could see her wanting everyone to call her K'mih. C'kayah is a little tough for non-Miqo'te to pronounce ("Ka-ka-yaH"), so he's perfectly happy with people just calling him "Kayah" - assuming he likes them. He has been known to bristle at people who call him "Kayah" without his permission.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Kailia - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 10:51 AM)Clover Wrote:(05-30-2014, 10:46 AM)K Wrote: For my character, her name is K'ailia, which she pronounces as Kay-lee-ah. So when you drop the K, it has an entirely different sound, and to me, that's not her name. So to me, the tribe letter became part of my characters name which is based off of other games incarnation of this character which were named Kailia.About pronunciations, I *think* K'ailia's name shouldn't actually be "Kay-lee-ah". Unless I'm mistaken and understood it completely wrong (which could be the case), the lore stated that the initial K is read as ku/coo, followed by any name. The sound of the initial letter is not mixed with the following name; it has its own sound, unrelated to what follows it.
Oh yes I am aware of the K's sound. But at the same time, there's names like K'ile, which according to K'nahli's post, is pronounced possibly like:
K'ile (Keel // Kee - L[e])Â
Which makes the K part of the name. Which is the approach I took with K'ailia, especially after her exile. I've no way to physically change her name, so she merely changed the pronunciation which sounds a lot better than:
Kuu-ay-lee-ah
Which is not the name I was really all that comfortable with. It sounds a lot better as:
Kay-lee-ah
But the best way to understand the sound though would be to hit the sound button on either the spanish or french part of this translation link:
https://translate.google.com/#es/fr/K’ailia
You can pretty much put any tribe members names in there to see how they sound, which is interesting
RE: Sunseeker Names - Ildur - 05-30-2014
I'd say it depends more on the tribe's actual culture rather than an individual preference. Though, of course, the tribe's culture could be that it is something of personal preference.
There's also this bit how the tribe letter flows into names:
Quote:Pronunciation-wise, other than the tribe pronunciations listed above, names follow common English phonics. Though followed by an apostrophe, the tribe sound is usually flows into the name.
O’raha would be pronounced “o-RA-ha†not “OH. rahaâ€
So "K'ailia"'s good pronounciation would indeed be "Kay-lee-ah" and not "Kuu-ay-lee-ah". You would have to add the "Koo" sound if the name had a consonant next to the K', though.
I always went for the interpretation that the prefix was basically a "of X tribe" that worked similarly to "of X city" in medieval and ancient times. It doesn't make much sense to use it inside the tribe itself because everyone is of that tribe. But it could still be used as a formality of sorts. Following that line of logic, the K in K'airos (or whatever) isn't actually a part of the name. But then, again, each tribe could have different cultural views of how the names should be used.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Naunet - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 08:13 AM)K Wrote: K'ile  (Keel // Kee - L[e]) <- I am not 100% certain of this one
Just to clarify, it's pronounced the same way you would pronounce the name "Kyle" in real life. xP IIRC, we had a lengthy discussion about pronunciation in kitty chat some months ago, and we decided that certain short names - especially ones that start with vowel sounds - make more sense with the starting prefix affixed to it and dropping the "koo" for a shorter "ku".
I picked option 1 with the poll, based around my understanding of lore. In RP, this is played out in how my character refers to the members of her tribe. When referring to her daughters, she will almost always drop the K tag as a signal of deep affection - unless she's talking to them from a more commanding/disciplining mode. Then it becomes a bit like what happens when your parents use your full name - you know you're in trouble. ;p For most other people, even other fellow family members, she'll usually maintain the K prefix. Certainly she would do so for any other Seeker miqo'te.
RE: Sunseeker Names - K'nahli - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 11:52 AM)Ildur Wrote:Quote:Pronunciation-wise, other than the tribe pronunciations listed above, names follow common English phonics. Though followed by an apostrophe, the tribe sound is usually flows into the name.
O’raha would be pronounced “o-RA-ha†not “OH. rahaâ€
So "K'ailia"'s good pronounciation would indeed be "Kay-lee-ah" and not "Kuu-ay-lee-ah". You would have to add the "Koo" sound if the name had a consonant next to the K', though.
I always went for the interpretation that the prefix was basically a "of X tribe" that worked similarly to "of X city" in medieval and ancient times. It doesn't make much sense to use it inside the tribe itself because everyone is of that tribe. But it could still be used as a formality of sorts. Following that line of logic, the K in K'airos (or whatever) isn't actually a part of the name. But then, again, each tribe could have different cultural views of how the names should be used.
I don't think that means you change the pronunciation of the prefix but that you don't put flat out emphasis on it so that it feels like a name broken into two parts.
For example: Y'shtola sounds like Yashtola rather than Ee-shtola.
(05-30-2014, 12:13 PM)Naunet Wrote:(05-30-2014, 08:13 AM)K Wrote: K'ile  (Keel // Kee - L[e]) <- I am not 100% certain of this one
Just to clarify, it's pronounced the same way you would pronounce the name "Kyle" in real life. xP IIRC, we had a lengthy discussion about pronunciation in kitty chat some months ago, and we decided that certain short names - especially ones that start with vowel sounds - make more sense with the starting prefix affixed to it and dropping the "koo" for a shorter "ku".
I picked option 1 with the poll, based around my understanding of lore. In RP, this is played out in how my character refers to the members of her tribe. When referring to her daughters, she will almost always drop the K tag as a signal of deep affection - unless she's talking to them from a more commanding/disciplining mode. Then it becomes a bit like what happens when your parents use your full name - you know you're in trouble. ;p For most other people, even other fellow family members, she'll usually maintain the K prefix. Certainly she would do so for any other Seeker miqo'te.
Sorry, and thank you for correcting.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Clover - 05-30-2014
Ah, IÂ actually didn't notice the K'ile part from K'nahli's post.
I've searched for the miqo'te naming conventions post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61150-Miqo-te-Naming-Conventions), and after explaining the pronunciation of all the letters, they add this bit:
"Pronunciation-wise, other than the tribe pronunciations listed above, names follow common English phonics. Though followed by an apostrophe, the tribe sound is usually flows into the name.
O’raha would be pronounced “o-RA-ha†not “OH. rahaâ€
Does that mean that the sound of the original letter can be altered?
Or just that it doesn't need to be emphasised?
In any case, I for one would rather follow the lore. IÂ find it chaotic if everyone makes up their own rules and pronunciations about something that's been explained in detail.
RE: Sunseeker Names - Kailia - 05-30-2014
(05-30-2014, 12:22 PM)Clover Wrote: Ah, IÂ actually didn't notice the K'ile part from K'nahli's post.
I've searched for the miqo'te naming conventions post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/61150-Miqo-te-Naming-Conventions), and after explaining the pronunciation of all the letters, they add this bit:
"Pronunciation-wise, other than the tribe pronunciations listed above, names follow common English phonics. Though followed by an apostrophe, the tribe sound is usually flows into the name.
O’raha would be pronounced “o-RA-ha†not “OH. rahaâ€
Does that mean that the sound of the original letter can be altered?
Or just that it doesn't need to be empathised?
In any case, I for one would rather follow the lore. IÂ find it chaotic if everyone makes up their own rules and pronunciations about something that's been explained in detail.
I think it just doesn't need to be emphasized. Because some names sound better with the koo sound, while others don't. So like in the case of O'raha being O-Ra-Ha, the letter flows into the name.
So in my own conclusion and interpretation of the lore, the tribe letter doesn't need to be emphasized. Take away the K in K'ailia's name, and you got a name that is completely different, and really doesn't fit her. That's why OOCly, I cringed when people called her ailia.