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Marking Dungeon Targets - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
I'm going to cause myself a lot of embarrassment here and make myself really stupid for saying this but I suppose it's better that I find out what most people think and that I try to adapt to it.
When I started tanking seriously I used to mark mobs to make the DPS smoother and to make enmity management less of a hassle on my end. I did this all the way up to the later-game dungeons but at some point I simply just stopped doing it. I'm not sure what my exact reason was for stopping at the time was but sometimes I wonder if I should return to doing it or not. The thing is that I have a few things that bother me about marking, though it has nothing to do with it being a bit tedious and hence why I feel stupid for bringing it up.
But regardless, here they are...
First and foremost, for the parties that actually would heed your marks, I imagine that very few of them would actually pick a target to DPS on their own intentionally. Now I know it sometimes happens anyways, I find myself doing it when I am not paying full attention despite the fact that I sometimes ask myself what the other DPS is doing when they choose a random target and force me to switch to theirs when they don't give up. So with that said, it seems almost like a pointless exercise.
Secondly, when it comes to late game dungeons I often think that marking them would somehow feel condescending to the other players. I don't see it like this myself when I am the DPS normally(though I hate when people mark conjurers in Halatali!), but the marking system is almost like a guide and I feel like I am telling people what to do as if they couldn't work it out for themselves... which I'm sure just sounds really stupid but that's the main thing I worry about.
Finally, though this has become less of an issue as of late, I worry about marking the less annoying mobs first and this being noticed by perhaps a more knowledgeable player whom would then have to ignore their wishes to get that one out of the way or defy the marking system to be more optimal but then annoy me by making me feel like I am wasting my time by even trying.
Yes, yes... all so frivolous and ridiculous but this is the immense hardship that is my tanking life. I also have a bit of a double standard where I don't like when people mark things for me when I am the tank(and not marking). I feel like they are not happy with me not doing my job, if it can so be called, and just pressures me into marking things that don't need to be marked when the party is already focusing on the same targets together anyways.
I actually don't mark anything as a DPS anymore outside of trials, Amdapor and bound targets, though I used to when I was "younger" =w=
So... what does everyone here think? Do you prefer targets to be marked? Do you find it unnecessary? Patronizing to your experience? Please let me know!
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Berrod Armstrong - 06-25-2014
I prefer to mark targets/have my targets marked.
I don't think of it in terms of 'lul here lil babby atk dis 1', but rather a simple process that really helps things go more smoothly. While I'm tanking, if one or more dps doesn't heed the markings I continue to mark regardless. If I'm dpsing, I follow the tank's marking even if I don't completely agree with it -- maybe they know something I don't, or they're trying a method that I've never seen! It's just the way I operate.Â
I doooo have my lazy moments when I don't mark at all for a couple pulls but NNGH, human after all! /ENTITLED LAZY TIME
If I'm tanking and one of the other players is marking? HOORAY, LESS WORK FOR ME! It's just a matter of getting the job done in my mind!
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 03:15 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: I prefer to mark targets/have my targets marked.
I don't think of it in terms of 'lul here lil babby atk dis 1', but rather a simple process that really helps things go more smoothly. While I'm tanking, if one or more dps doesn't heed the markings I continue to mark regardless. If I'm dpsing, I follow the tank's marking even if I don't completely agree with it -- maybe they know something I don't, or they're trying a method that I've never seen! It's just the way I operate.Â
I doooo have my lazy moments when I don't mark at all for a couple pulls but NNGH, human after all! /ENTITLED LAZY TIME
If I'm tanking and one of the other players is marking? HOORAY, LESS WORK FOR ME! It's just a matter of getting the job done in my mind!
Thank you for your reply and making me laugh with the emboldened part, haha >w<
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Eva - 06-25-2014
I loooove it when tanks mark the mobs. In lower level dungeons in makes it easy for me as a healer to know which mobs I can Repose. And on DRG I hate not knowing if the mob I'm targeting has sufficient hate and all that.
I don't tank very often but when I do I always try to do this as well, even though it slows me down a little bit. I don't get aggravated when DPS target the wrong things, but I also don't go out of my way to try and get hate back on mobs marked later in the sequence. I figure it's a kind of insurance policy and if they incur aggro and die it's on them.
I can see instances where it's not necessary, mainly endgame situations where you have a brd and blm DPS just AoEing the crap out of everything. But this is one of those things I will absolutely give a commendation to a PLD who marks mobs so I'm not floundering about on DRG.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - TheLastCandle - 06-25-2014
Yeah, I never saw it as condescending in the slightest. And once I started tanking, I began marking ALL OF THE THINGS. Because why not? It keeps everything going smoothly if everybody's on the same page. Even though there always seems to be that one DPSerwho just attacks whatever is in front of his/her face...
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Berrod Armstrong - 06-25-2014
...on a side note, I'm sometimes rather forgiving of some DPS who start off hot and sweaty wailing away at the wrong mob.Â
I distinctly remember flummoxifying myself with the tab target, accidentally skipping to the wrong mob and then PELTING OFF FULL SPEED to flail fists at the thing before realizing 'Oh gosh this is mob number three'.Â
I try to keep in mind that people make mistakes like that. If it's a frequently recurring thing, however, I eyebrow-twitch a bit.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - C'kayah Polaali - 06-25-2014
I also prefer to have everything marked. My sole endgame class is a healer, so I don't actually *use* the marks myself very much, but I definitely notice that on runs where the tank marks, I spend far less time keeping up the health of the odd DPS.
When I tank, I mark pretty religiously, and no one has ever complained. On the contrary, I'll get the occasional "you mark! I love you!" in a pug. Being a fool for love, that only reinforces my marking habits...
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 03:25 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Yeah, I never saw it as condescending in the slightest. And once I started tanking, I began marking ALL OF THE THINGS. Because why not? It keeps everything going smoothly if everybody's on the same page. Even though there always seems to be that one DPSerwho just attacks whatever is in front of his/her face...
Haha, I remember a Haukke(NM) run where someone seemed to be attacking the last in the sequence every time. At first I thought he was being a bit thick but as the run went on I began to wonder if perhaps he was new and thought higher numbers meant higher prority, haha.
The problem is that I will seldom correct someone on this. If they appear experienced then I feel like I will get a snarky response and if they look new, then I will feel a little bad - as though I were telling them off in a way(though since it's constructive guidance I'll more likely do it anyways).
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Melkire - 06-25-2014
I came to XIV from TOR back in December. I came from a PvE background on a PvP server. People there would mark targets in a few boss fights, simply to keep things organized. Otherwise? If you marked trash, people would laugh at you, and this is why:
In TOR, according to my experience, it is commonly understood...
1. that the tank is responsible for grabbing aggro (snap or otherwise), holding aggro, and mitigating as much damage as possible;
2. that the healer is responsible for health upkeep and the prevention of deaths due to inbound damage;
3. and that DPS are responsible for knowing what needs to die first and in what order, and then burning the targets down in that order as fast as possible without pulling aggro.
If a DPS was new, and made it known? The party would inform them in chat or VoIP what the order of priority was, and that was that.
There were (still are?) a lot of factors that contributed to this prevalent attitude: tanks there have a more robust toolset for controlling pulls, DPS specs all have aggro dump skills, marking targets is more often than not a pain in the ass compared to marking in XIV due to respective UI implementations, and the existence of official designations for PvE, PvP, and RP servers that resulted in a "hardcore", "elitist" approach to PvE on most servers.
In short: in TOR, target-marking outside of endgame boss encounters is considered unnecessary and serves only as handholding for DPS players.
I remember first coming to XIV and tanking. People would complain that I wasn't marking at each pull. My instinctive reaction was, "are you f#&%ing kidding me?"
To sum this up in a way that might make sense: if a DPS in XIV needs to be told to kill the Tonberries first on pulls prior to the first boss of Wanderer's Palace, and/or they need that marked, then they're either new, aren't paying attention, or are "bad".
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Elyscia - 06-25-2014
Would prefer marking whether or not I'm tanking. It's annoying having to save DPS because they didn't attack the right targets, and of course you can't expect everyone to know which one to attack first (they could be new to the dungeon) so marking is always very helpful and not condescending at all.
But even if that one DPS doesn't listen to you, at least the other one might, and even the Healer might throw out a couple of dots if they have the time.
I do get very eye-brow twitchy when I mark 1, 2, and 3, and the DPS attacks number 3 first.
ಠ__à²
It wasn't a one-time thing, either.
ಠ__ಠYeah.
I'm a bit mean, though - I'd call the person out until they correct themselves. Not angrily at first, just some comment for them to attack #1 first, and if they don't listen, I get bitchy and wonder why they hadn't learned numbers yet.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - FreelanceWizard - 06-25-2014
I always, always mark when I'm tanking (excepting special situations like boss fights and intentional AE/SR pulls). Part of it is because, as a PLD, my AE threat rotation requires that I change targets a lot. Marking acts as a sort of passive "main assist," keeping fire focused while I jump around, checking threat, topping up my threat to keep the healer safe, etc. (You may surmise that I prefer the threat combo over Flash once the fight is going in earnest.
) The other part is that, IMO, marking is part of good communication. It says two things: "Hey, whoever is top on the kill list is who I'll focus most of the threat generation on, so try to kill him first," and "Be aware that guys higher on the kill order are more dangerous and need to die first." On the DPS/healer side of the fence, I vastly prefer when tanks mark, as it tells me how the pull is going to go down. If I'm new to an instance, it tells me who should die first and who I should be wary of; if I'm not, it gives me a quick way to select targets, ensures fire is focused, and lets anyone doing CC know what they should be controlling.
If it makes you feel better, I've been thanked by DPS for putting up marks before, so I think most players prefer it and those who don't care don't view it as an insult. The rest of the team looks to the tank to say how the fight will proceed, and marking is part of that. To use a well-worn football analogy, think of it like the quarterback calling the play.
As for DPS who attack the wrong target, I don't get bent out of shape about it until the player does it consistently, and then I just shrug, decide it's a test of my threat management skills, and try to make the best of it.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 03:33 PM)Elyscia Wrote: and of course you can't expect everyone to know which one to attack first (they could be new to the dungeon) so marking is always very helpful and not condescending at all.
That's the thing though, when I still wasn't fully familiar with the dungeons I didn't know which was the best one to focus first either and I felt like I was doing something bad.
(06-25-2014, 03:33 PM)Elyscia Wrote: and if they don't listen, I get bitchy and wonder why they hadn't learned numbers yet.
Hahahaha >w<Â I could just picture someone yelling: "LEARN TO NUMBERS" in the event of that.
Edit:
Thank you, Freelance! With that I feel rather compelled to return to my old habits.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Meghatron - 06-25-2014
When I DPS I -love- when targets are marked, because otherwise I have the habit of hanging back and waiting extra long for the tank to focus on one enemy and I feel like I'm getting those invisible 'what are you waiting for' stares. It makes everything go more smoothly, and when a situation arises where I have to off-tank for a sec I feel more comfortable saying so! I am, to say the least, not the most confident DPS but I try my best to contribute more than make accidental trouble.
When healing I don't pay much attention to marks since I'm not doing a lot of direct-to-enemy interaction, but it does let me know what's safe to drop a DoT on when I'm not busy. :D
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - Elyscia - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 03:40 PM)K Wrote:(06-25-2014, 03:33 PM)Elyscia Wrote: and of course you can't expect everyone to know which one to attack first (they could be new to the dungeon) so marking is always very helpful and not condescending at all.
That's the thing though, when I still wasn't fully familiar with the dungeons I didn't know which was the best one to focus first either and I felt like I was doing something bad.
(06-25-2014, 03:33 PM)Elyscia Wrote: and if they don't listen, I get bitchy and wonder why they hadn't learned numbers yet.
Hahahaha >w<Â I could just picture someone yelling: "LEARN TO NUMBERS" in the event of that.
I levelled up a tank to 50 pretty recently; it's a wee bit daunting, aye. Like, learning to pull the mobs to the ranged one and attack the ranged first. But usually when I pull I attack the mob that's the odd-one-out (like say, there's two Imps and one iron giant > attack IG)
And yes, I'm not even kidding; that was exactly what I yelled at them when they couldn't even take my first, two kind suggestions to attack the numbered targets. "WHERE DID YOU LEARN MATHS? I'M MARKING 1, 2, 3, AND YOU KEEP GOING TO ATTACK 3 FIRST. WHICH BIZARRO WORLD DID YOU COME FROM?"
I have no patience for shites, but at least I amuse myself whilst doing it.
RE: Marking Dungeon Targets - TheLastCandle - 06-25-2014
Other games notwithstanding (you generally don't mark "trash" in WoW either, for example) it is the way it is here for a few reasons. Different mechanics, different player culture, different UI, different.. everything. I played TOR for a good spell, too, and it was no more or less "hardcore" in regards to Flashpoint difficulty or average player skill in my experience! Same for LOTRO - again, different. With a little more coordination required for Fellowship skills and whatnot.
I figure if it only takes me a few swift keystrokes to mark target priority, then why the hell not? Gives me less of a headache.