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+--- Thread: Gender roles (/showthread.php?tid=7486)
RE: Gender roles - Devereau - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:01 PM)K Wrote: Ahah, thank you very much.
In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.
It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again.Â
Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.
Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.
Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.
Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.
For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)
It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.
RE: Gender roles - Kage - 06-25-2014
It appears like most of the leaders in the world are female. While the Syndicate has "true" power in Ul'dah they still have to play with the Sultana currently. Or the sultanate, but we'll use Sultana because she's not dead and LONG LIVE NANAMO.
/cough
Ahem.
I don't know too much about the other races' lores, but both Miqo'te cultures seem much more matriarchal.
Nevermind that the current Gladiator Guild leader is a female. Or that the current leader of the Scions is female... the leaders of Maelstrom and Twin Adders are female... They had male characters that easily could have taken those places.
Is this because of a culture where females are seen as more leader types? No that's not my point. In fact, I think it's just Eorzea's willingness to have females be leaders. It's not something of an except where "Oh she's going to be the first President!" but "ok she has done these things over all those other people". Merit over novelty.
RE: Gender roles - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:11 PM)Thaarus Wrote:(06-25-2014, 04:01 PM)K Wrote: Ahah, thank you very much.
In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.
It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again.Â
Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.
Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.
Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.
Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.
For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)
It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.
Yes, I completely agree! That's why I excluded miqo'te cultures from the role since I know for a fact that the female are considered "more important" in both clans. As for the others, I would not know but if I am to consider the three city-states alone then there leaves room for debate. It could be a coincidence that the three leaders happen to be female after all. I mean, Raubahn is the real person who dominates our attention since he is the military leader, yet the leader of the Adder does not have a significant presence(if at all).
By the looks of it, it would seem that Eorzea is more modern when it comes to equality especially when you consider that there is no significant racism outside of Coerthas, but some people have different opinions and that's what I am interested in hearing ^^
RE: Gender roles - TheLastCandle - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:11 PM)Thaarus Wrote:(06-25-2014, 04:01 PM)K Wrote: Ahah, thank you very much.
In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.
It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again.Â
Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.
Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.
Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.
Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.
For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)
It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.
As I've recently revisited the Ishgard questline as my Miqo'te alt, I have to point out that this is actually surprisingly untrue. In particular, the questline where you have to rescue fallen knights, but it's not limited to them: there are a number of female Ishgardian knight NPC's, in battle and otherwise. It's just that because they tend to wear the chain hauberk models, it's hard to pick them out unless you're familiar with actual elezen naming conventions (some names don't -look- very feminine..) or in the case of unnamed NPCs, pretty observant. It gets harder if they're wearing the coif model that includes a face guard.
I agree with this overall sentiment, though - it does seem to vary based on region and/or culture. The most glaringly obvious difference being that between Seekers of the Sun and Keepers of the Moon.
RE: Gender roles - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:21 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: As I've recently revisited the Ishgard questline as my Miqo'te alt, I have to point out that this is actually surprisingly untrue. In particular, the questline where you have to rescue fallen knights, but it's not limited to them: there are a number of female Ishgardian knight NPC's, in battle and otherwise. It's just that because they tend to wear the chain hauberk models, it's hard to pick them out unless you're familiar with actual elezen naming conventions (some names don't -look- very feminine..) or in the case of unnamed NPCs, pretty observant. It gets harder if they're wearing the coif model that includes a face guard.
I agree with this overall sentiment, though - it does seem to vary based on region and/or culture. The most glaringly obvious difference being that between Seekers of the Sun and Keepers of the Moon.
Ah, thank you for pointing this out. It never crossed my mind before but once Thaarus mentioned it I realised that I only remember seeing males... or so I thought, but I guess you are right that their armour causes it to be deceiving ^^
RE: Gender roles - Smiling River - 06-25-2014
You're right, SE probably can't make a game where the content and gameplay is heavily swayed by which gender you pick at character creation, especially if it's one sided (like women not being able to play all classes but men can). On the other hand, there is no "timeline" to speak of, because while this game looks to us as resembling medieval / renaissance times... it's not. Nothing that we culturally know of those times has to apply here because it's a fantasy, and the lore is not set within the Earth timeline.
As far as pointing to women being the heads of the three nations as an example of dominance, I think that is also narrow minded in it's own way. What if this is a rare coincidence in the history of Eorzea?
OOC'ly, SE wouldn't get flack from groups focused on "men's rights" by making all three leaders female, or even making female characters seem more dominant, but if things were reversed? There would be a huge outcry if all the leaders were men, and it seemed that men were more dominant. The Keeper clan is a matriarchy, but is there a race/clan that is male dominated? I don't think so, because again - no one will protest a female dominated culture but if there was also a male dominated one (even in a fantasy) there would be trouble.
This is one of the reasons I don't particularly respect the lore (although I generally follow it), because it's very heavily shaped by OOC politics.
RE: Gender roles - K'nahli - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:37 PM)Smiling River Wrote: You're right, SE probably can't make a game where the content and gameplay is heavily swayed by which gender you pick at character creation, especially if it's one sided (like women not being able to play all classes but men can). On the other hand, there is no "timeline" to speak of, because while this game looks to us as resembling medieval / renaissance times... it's not. Nothing that we culturally know of those times has to apply here because it's a fantasy, and the lore is not set within the Earth timeline.
As far as pointing to women being the heads of the three nations as an example of dominance, I think that is also narrow minded in it's own way. What if this is a rare coincidence in the history of Eorzea?
OOC'ly, SE wouldn't get flack from groups focused on "men's rights" by making all three leaders female, or even making female characters seem more dominant, but if things were reversed? There would be a huge outcry if all the leaders were men, and it seemed that men were more dominant. The Keeper clan is a matriarchy, but is there a race/clan that is male dominated? I don't think so, because again - no one will protest a female dominated culture but if there was also a male dominated one (even in a fantasy) there would be trouble.
This is one of the reasons I don't particularly respect the lore (although I generally follow it), because it's very heavily shaped by OOC politics.
I guess I am pretty ignorant to that then. I honestly didn't think such a thing could cause so much trouble in a game of this timeline(IF we were to humour the concept that it can be related to Earth, but I respect your argument that such a comparison should not be made).
Thank you for your reply ^^
RE: Gender roles - UltraFennec - 06-25-2014
(06-25-2014, 11:22 AM)Coatleque Wrote:(06-25-2014, 11:16 AM)K Wrote: Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?
This is where things get very fuzzy. Â You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by. Â You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.
It's not common, but it IS present in some titles, though mostly relegated to background elements.
The one series I can think of that definitely does this is the Witcher games from CD Projekt Red, based on the Andrzej Sapkowski stories and novels of the same title. It's made fairly blatantly obvious that the Sorceresses are some of the few women in the world with actual power and ability to exercise that power. Equality is a nonexistent ideal in that world, save perhaps for the protagonist and his friends.
RE: Gender roles - Mercurias - 06-26-2014
Gender roles are going to vary in the game, and people are going to find reasons to act the way they do, be they mainstream believes that seem to be modern in the more 'modern' cities or backwater/traditionalist areas and tribes. You can choose your own origin, and thus choose your own excuse for your character acting the way they do.
Heck, it might even be a little,bit awesome to see someone openly admit to being a raging sexist and have to spend time working on it. Haven knows there are enough characters on both sides lampooning the opposite sex IC.Â
And what about gender IDENTITIES? I'd imagine biases would exist there, as well, especially with the sorts who believe that women should be coddled and men should be able to look after themselves.
RE: Gender roles - OttoVann - 06-30-2014
Hm I read a lot of the posts here and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular.
All I am going to say is that Otto feels no need or obligation to help women because they are women. I clearly mack on women and actively pursue many thats apart of the character, but I most definitely will not intervene with an argument between a man and woman just because.
I actually personally HATE with a passion when my good friend and I do our little argument/insult RPs with each other and men swoop in left and right to physically stand between us and instigate fights with me for insulting her. Why it annoys me is from my view they fail to understand when they do this they are actively treating and thinking of women as less than them, that must have male assistance to survive/navigate the encounters. I like to think that I won't help women in fights with other men (unless asked directly) because I think of them as my true equal and would rather let them stand on their own versus me trampling over their situation. This is hard to describe but its a less distilled version of equal rights comes with equal lefts. I don't know at this point I'm rambling but I find the feeling of NEEDING to intervene with women because they are is super annoying and I'll never do it no matter what. That and the men constantly white knighting my female friend irritate her too because they are belittling her by stepping in, and trampling over her persona and in a round about way belittling her character.
sorry for the incoherent rant
Edits:
To try to explain my viewpoint - lets say Lady Crofte draws her sword on a Roe man for whatever reason. Best believe I will not rush to help her because shes a woman. In fact she drew he sword first she better be ready for the consequences and I'm not going to help her at all unless she asks. I don't care if she loses she knew what she was getting into beforehand. Well I'd care to try to save her I guess if shes facing imminent death but if its a fight? Nah. I'd help her survive the encounter because Im not a psycho but Im not helping just because I'm a man and shes a woman. She a big girl if she can't handle the fights don't get in them. No thanks. That and my knowledge of how to use a lance is largely academic and I don't engage in fights myself all that often.
RE: Gender roles - Kage - 06-30-2014
I was OOC at the time dealing with things while AFKing in Quicksand as some of my friends came to Aya's defense in the Quicksand when some pirates were being genuine nuisances, such as throwing a glass down and having it break.
They were accused ICly of using authority that they weren't allowed to (Sultansworn) and OOCly for whiteknighting. ICly it was not true because no mention was even used of being Sultansworn to say "Please stop being a dick in Quicksand." OOCly, I'm pretty sure it would not have mattered what gender Aya was but just that Aya was a friend.
Kage does not care what gender a person is. If he views them as a friend and does not like how they are being treated he will do something about it. Or stand by to support.
RE: Gender roles - Erik Mynhier - 06-30-2014
Titles and history aside, at the end of the day, at his core, Erik is a soldier. And as long as the one next to him can do what they must, he has no issue. That said he is overtly protective of very young (almost children) girls and small children do to the events of his life. So in that he tends to underestimate that small group. An intended character flaw.
RE: Gender roles - Flickering Ember - 07-01-2014
(06-25-2014, 11:43 AM)Coatleque Wrote:(06-25-2014, 11:27 AM)K Wrote: So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?
(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)
Not per say. Â What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. Â But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.
Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".
Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. Â These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.
Bolded the important part there and most specifically, the part that I am actually responding to.
This goes hand and hand with some of the other responses in this thread too. It may seem like a logical and natural choice to simply assume that medieval/fantasy themed works have a "men are hunters, women are nurturers" mindset, however, I believe that this thought process is based solely on our own real life history.
Though fantasy often means medieval, that should not be indicative of the game's culture's beliefs. It is entirely possible for a medieval fantasy world to have a culture with social equality much more advanced than our own while still lacking in technology.
RE: Gender roles - UltraFennec - 07-02-2014
Maybe if Eorzea's city-states function as post-scarcity societies somehow. People have to be fairly well assured of their survival somehow for higher-order thinking to be something they give any real thought to. Most medieval societies had very few folk that could belong to such a category, and it can be seen in the kinds of works produced in these eras. If Eorzea really is supposed to be some sort of pseudo-medieval thing (which I doubt), then it would be culturally appropriate for an amount of reliance on 'natural' roles to be present and enforced.Â
That this doesn't seem to be the case in most of the game's societies tells me that this is less a real medieval society and more one that uses the trappings of medieval and fantasy stories but is really a fairly modern society overall. My guess why? Magic probably makes up a fair amount of the technology gap in crucial places.
RE: Gender roles - synaesthetic - 07-05-2014
(06-25-2014, 04:37 PM)Smiling River Wrote: *MRA-esque words of stupid*
All creative works, but especially science fiction and fantasy, are really a commentary on the social, economic, political and cultural issues of the time in which they were created. Additionally, XIV is not a historical fiction title, so SE has absoluely no obligation to abide by reality by any stretch of the imagination.
We're playing magic-slinging cat people and you're concerned that there isn't a large degree of "historically-accurate" sexism? Dafuq are you on about?
And lastly, you sound awfully bitter that all the important NPCs aren't all male. Poor widdle baby! Is your pwecious mascuwinity damaged? Boo-fucking-hoo, cry me a goddamned river. "Respect" the lore if you want to or not (I usually facepalm about it because it's pretty C-list writing), but your reasoning strikes me as being really fucking pathetic and butthurt that your fantasy NPC leaders aren't rocking out with their cocks out.
(Oh, and clearly you didn't play 1.0; Roes and Highlanders were the male-only races back then, and there was no male miqo'te option either. They added female options for both as well as the male option for both miqo'te subraces.)