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+--- Thread: Gender roles (/showthread.php?tid=7486)
RE: Gender roles - Naunet - 07-07-2014
Using rape to generate strong feelings towards a particular plot point is a common (and usually very lazy) technique, unfortunately. It is possible to handle rape in a story well, but you don't do that by treating it as a simple plot device to characterize one side as the bad guys.
RE: Gender roles - LiadansWhisper - 07-07-2014
(07-07-2014, 09:49 AM)Roswyn Wrote: When I was leveling my first character I was rather taken aback at the amount of rape and implied rape there is in this game in quests. What shocked me even more was when I brought it up to my FC no one else seemed to remember it.Think about that one.
They may not have remembered it because the NPCs in question never came right out and stated, point blank, what happened. Â Like, what I remember about the Ala Mhigo quests is that it was implied that the woman in question (a girl, really, implied to be the equivalent of a teenager, as well) used very veiled language and only directly said that she was harassed. Â The strong implication was that she'd been touched against her will (i.e. groped or otherwise manhandled), but I actually had to think about the quest for a bit to realize that most likely she'd actually been raped - but that was based on the information I got about the people who hurt her and the reactions of the other Ala Mhigans when she explained what happened, not what she actually said. Â And the word "rape" is never used. Â
I can't even remember the Ishgardian incident, so I may have missed it or misinterpreted it (or blocked the entire zone out of my mind because it was so rage-inducing in generalÂ
 ).I guess what I'm getting at is that some people are just gonna miss the cues (whether because they genuinely are dense, are unused to looking for a hidden meaning, or decide they don't want it to be rape because that is too painful to think about), because nothing is blatantly said.  That doesn't make them bad people.
RE: Gender roles - Kellach Woods - 07-11-2014
(07-07-2014, 03:19 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: They may not have remembered it because the NPCs in question never came right out and stated, point blank, what happened. Â Like, what I remember about the Ala Mhigo quests is that it was implied that the woman in question (a girl, really, implied to be the equivalent of a teenager, as well) used very veiled language and only directly said that she was harassed. Â The strong implication was that she'd been touched against her will (i.e. groped or otherwise manhandled), but I actually had to think about the quest for a bit to realize that most likely she'd actually been raped - but that was based on the information I got about the people who hurt her and the reactions of the other Ala Mhigans when she explained what happened, not what she actually said. Â And the word "rape" is never used. ÂIf they mention it, it bumps up the rating to Mature due to the game having sexual content rather than suggestive content. Wouldn't even surprise me if the skirting around the issue is outright because of that consideration rather than anything else, even if it's really, really bad how often that trope is used in FFXIV.
I can't even remember the Ishgardian incident, so I may have missed it or misinterpreted it (or blocked the entire zone out of my mind because it was so rage-inducing in generalÂ
Count me in the "Fuck Ishgarde" camp. Originally I wanted to make a Duskwight that really didn't like the Gridanians but still tolerated them but because of Ul'dah's city storyline and Ishgarde I pretty much went "Welp he hates everyone he'd sell the whole continent out to Garland if it wasn't for the fact that he hates them even more than the rest of these assholes."
Honestly, when the deal with the Ixal happened and the only non-Ishgardian at that camp wanted to help them I wanted to say fuck them. Let the Ixal wipe that nation off the face of the planet there is nothing good that can come out of Ishgarde ever.
(07-07-2014, 09:49 AM)Roswyn Wrote: I get the feeling that Squeenix wants to have the convenience of placing woman in strong roles while at the same time subtly reminding us that they are physically weaker. Or the "majority" are weaker. MMO's like WoW head this off at the pass by blatantly saying in the game manual that there is no difference between males and females stat-wise in Azeroth. As far as I am aware, FF14 makes no such distinction.If they do it (I remember them doing it kind of but I'm not too sure myself anymore), it's very well hidden and more as a way of saying "Your gender doesn't matter for stats so you don't need to change gender for minmaxing" rather than make a statement about the game world.
Which is really bad - they could have done better but I'm not expecting Square-Enix to do anything remotely good on that issue at this point.
RE: Gender roles - LiadansWhisper - 07-13-2014
(07-11-2014, 07:57 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Count me in the "Fuck Ishgarde" camp. Originally I wanted to make a Duskwight that really didn't like the Gridanians but still tolerated them but because of Ul'dah's city storyline and Ishgarde I pretty much went "Welp he hates everyone he'd sell the whole continent out to Garland if it wasn't for the fact that he hates them even more than the rest of these assholes."
Honestly, when the deal with the Ixal happened and the only non-Ishgardian at that camp wanted to help them I wanted to say fuck them. Let the Ixal wipe that nation off the face of the planet there is nothing good that can come out of Ishgarde ever.
Oh my god, YES. Â I spent the entire zone thinking, "I really want to throw all of these NPCs off a cliff." Â And by the time the Ixal part came along, I, too, was willing to let Garuru eat the entire zone, because they were such asshats!
RE: Gender roles - TheLastCandle - 07-13-2014
*reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.
RE: Gender roles - Crisiet - 07-13-2014
(07-13-2014, 01:17 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: *reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.
I know right?
Honestly, I don't remember any allusion to rape in Coerthas. I do remember Little Ala Mhigo though, that one was blatant and pretty much used to show how super evil the baddies are. But these things have been talked about already in this thread so I won't continue.
RE: Gender roles - TheLastCandle - 07-13-2014
(07-13-2014, 02:31 PM)Crisiet Wrote:(07-13-2014, 01:17 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: *reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.
I know right?
Honestly, I don't remember any allusion to rape in Coerthas. I do remember Little Ala Mhigo though, that one was blatant and pretty much used to show how super evil the baddies are. But these things have been talked about already in this thread so I won't continue.
I seriously don't recall anything like that in Coerthas either.
RE: Gender roles - Zyrusticae - 07-17-2014
Yeah, you're going to have to elaborate on that one.
The one in Little Ala Mhigo might have been a bit tasteless but it was heavily veiled/left as an implication on the part of the viewer, and I still can't recall an incident in Coerthas despite wracking my brain over it.
That's one instance that kind of happened and another that's unverified. That's not really very often, I would say.
RE: Gender roles - Kellach Woods - 07-17-2014
(07-17-2014, 07:59 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: That's one instance that kind of happened and another that's unverified. That's not really very often, I would say.IIRC there's another implication in Ul'dah's storyline but since I'm replaying through that on another character I'll be able to properly evaluate whether that happened or not. I distinctly remember thinking "they seriously went there? AGAIN? (I'd just done Little Ala Mhigo)" Same with Coerthas (although that one is in a while).
Coerthas in a nutshell : "We hate you. Go away."
Really wish we had another zone in that level range so I could actually leave them to their troubles.
RE: Gender roles - Crisiet - 07-18-2014
I've played through the main story three times now and seriously I did not see anything in Coerthas. Also, interestingly the Corpse Brigade's leader is a woman. I didn't know that until I happened across a FATE.
Oh. And let's not overlook Sastasha. That place will always make me uncomfortable.
RE: Gender roles - Kellach Woods - 07-23-2014
So, uh.
Robotic sexual harassment level 15 Goldsmith quest.
Minor, but wholly unnecessary.
RE: Gender roles - allgivenover - 07-23-2014
Frankly I can't imagine a setting that's honest about human nature while also being devoid of rape entirely - although XIV features "non-human" races they are not different enough to fall free of that assertion.
XIV is a bright game about heroes, but these heroes also live in a dangerous world alongside good and evil folk alike. One of the more subtle themes of the story is that the mortal races are a chaotic force composed of both light and darkness, and it shows in the setting.
Whether using rape is lazy or not is up for debate. I think that XIV could have gotten away without mentioning it ever and no one would've thought anything of it - mind you, this wouldn't have stopped any roleplayers from using the "rape as backstory" trope to their fullest indulgence - however SE chose to imply rape in the setting, so here we are.
The disturbingly blatant implications of Sastasha kind of shocked me, but even though it shocked me it also served well to illustrate that these pirates were a big problem for Limsa Lominsa and as a result it became way more important for me to get rid of them.
I also think XIV handles it in a way that I find acceptable - though I respectfully disagree with the crowd that believes that rape can never be used in a story acceptably I also understand that this is a very hot button issue with a lot of strong emotions surrounding it, so you'll not catch me arguing vehemently with those that feel this way.
The way that XIV uses it that I find acceptable is that SE doesn't use it to make a major female character appear weak or play it for cheap drama. In fact the incident in Little Ala Mhigo I thought was well done in the way that the victim asserted that she's going to be alright despite what happened (at least that's how I recall it, correct me if I'm wrong). It goes without saying that rape is an extremely horrible trauma for anyone to experience, but it was refreshing to see a character approach the aftermath from a position of strength rather than the more common emotional devastation that follows.
That's something you rarely see in media, as it's way way more common for raped characters to become fragile creatures that are forever marked and in need of delicate treatment or for them to become psychotic and fueled by a desire for revenge or random violence. These common portrayals and unfortunately real life reactions I think can be extremely harmful to a victim of rape as not only do they have to process their own feelings, they also have to contend with well-meaning but misguided people telling them that they are weak and/or damaged/marked/soiled or any number of negative projections. So in this case I thought it was unusual and welcome that they handled it differently.
RE: Gender roles - Seriphyn - 07-24-2014
SE saying nunhs don't always lead the tribe and females do seems like they're covering their arses from the dodgy social structure of Seekers. In Forgotten Springs, a female asks "When is your next coupling, sister?". Quest dialogue from the nunh dude has him say "the word of the nunh is law, and those who do not listen shall have their ears cut off". I have a screenshot of it somewhere.Â
Anyway, this is an interesting debate...you have damsel in distress characters in quest lines that reinforce the heteronormative cliche...then you have the pirates of the missing member...it's quite a mix.
RE: Gender roles - Naunet - 07-24-2014
(07-24-2014, 01:54 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: SE saying nunhs don't always lead the tribe and females do seems like they're covering their arses from the dodgy social structure of Seekers. In Forgotten Springs, a female asks "When is your next coupling, sister?". Quest dialogue from the nunh dude has him say "the word of the nunh is law, and those who do not listen shall have their ears cut off".
Yes, yes, but that's just one tribe. Whether or not it's SE covering their ass doesn't matter, because they have explicitly stated that nunhs don't usually lead the tribe. It's funny that they chickened out on having strong female leaders in their fan service tribe, though.
RE: Gender roles - allgivenover - 07-24-2014
I don't really know what happened with that discrepancy. Perhaps a change in direction mid-development? Or they're just not explicitly stating that the forgotten springs tribe is an anomaly? Either way.
I think "fanservice tribe" is a little heavy handed in criticism - clearly I prefer Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te myself but I also think there's interesting cultural clashes and potentially positive portrayals that can come from the Seeker side of things. Conflict is good and a variety of portrayals is good. Whether or not someone is getting their jollies off the idea that Seekers live in a harem is irrelevant.
People give SE shit for the Seeker tribe now and then, but compared to some other games in the industry like WoW, every Korean MMO ever, and Wildstar (*shudder*), SE is pretty damn mild when it comes to fleshservice.
In fact they're the only one I can think of that provides a fair amount of beefcake along with the cheesecake fleshservice.