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+--- Thread: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy (/showthread.php?tid=7786)
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-03-2014
In regards to that being potentially outdated, and from 1.0, in the 2.3 quest The Greatest Story Never Told (the one with no minimap guide, and hellish math) we are presented the following:
Now, this does not include the weaknesses/strengths over each element, but it does maintain at least part of the premise, and it is from the same book as in 1.0. therefore I would personally accept the rest as true.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Yssen - 08-03-2014
I would say it replaces the premise actually, completing the retcon of the previous lore. It is more talking about how one element flows into the other and are all part of a cycle, not that they cycle and topple each other. This reinforces how things work mechanically right now. Using fire spells has no detriment when attacking, say Leviathan. The spells simply have different effects attached to them.
Jumping back a bit. The original question is whether or not one can use the teachings and paradigm of Conjury to pull of Thaumaturgy effects, from an IC standpoint. My answer to this remains, yes. There is ample evidence in lore and such to suggest that one does not need to use the teachings and paradigm of Conjury to pull off Conjury effects. Magical teachings all simply teach different methods of controlling and manipulating aether. I can see where those teachings would push a student toward using some elements over others, but not where they would flat out restrict the use of those elements by paradigm. Mechanically being a BLM, while ICly putting your effects in the paradigm of Conjury is hardly lore breaking.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-03-2014
(08-03-2014, 05:21 AM)Yssen Wrote: I would say it replaces the premise actually, completing the retcon of the previous lore. It is more talking about how one element flows into the other and are all part of a cycle, not that they cycle and topple each other. This reinforces how things work mechanically right now. Using fire spells has no detriment when attacking, say Leviathan. The spells simply have different effects attached to them.
The image which I posted earlier, already contained this information, and was from 1.0, so I would say it backs it up, rather than overwrites it.
Edit: The full set of Essences and Permutations:Â Chapters I-IV
this contains both the paragraph I posted recently, as well as the conquests and submissions. Lore upheld /banggavel
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-03-2014
(08-03-2014, 05:21 AM)Yssen Wrote: Jumping back a bit. The original question is whether or not one can use the teachings and paradigm of Conjury to pull of Thaumaturgy effects, from an IC standpoint. My answer to this remains, yes. There is ample evidence in lore and such to suggest that one does not need to use the teachings and paradigm of Conjury to pull off Conjury effects. Magical teachings all simply teach different methods of controlling and manipulating aether. I can see where those teachings would push a student toward using some elements over others, but not where they would flat out restrict the use of those elements by paradigm. Mechanically being a BLM, while ICly putting your effects in the paradigm of Conjury is hardly lore breaking.
while we have witnessed someone using a similar method to Thaumaturgy to create conjury-esque effects (see conjurer questline).
We have not seen anyone do it in the reverse. This is not to say that there are no elementals of Fire, Ice and Lightning that bestow upon someone said magic, however, all we know of the elementals is that they are called elementals and allow someone to cast magic.We do not know if there are say air elementals, earth elementals and water elementals that bestow those elements, or simply beings comprised of those elements, but not in the same way as, say, sprites.
Now, this is all coming from a 2.0 standpoint, and from what i have looked into personally, so this could very well be trumped by someone more lore savy than myself.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Kailia - 08-03-2014
there are basically 6 elements in Eorzea:
Earth
Air
Water
Fire
Ice
Lightning
The conjurers who are limited to the shroud, also tend to limit themselves to Earth, Air and Water, because those are the most predominant elements within the shroud. However, I can see conjurers/white mages who are not limited to the shroud, being able to expand their repertoire with the other 3 elements in their most predominant locations. Like Fire could be found in Southern Thanalan, or even the volcanic areas, Ice would be predominantly in Coerthas, and Lightning would be found mostly in Mor Dhona.
My character, who is weak physically, has strong talent when it comes to the elements, so since she isn't limited to the shroud, she does indeed have access to all 6 elements. And IC, she's never visited the thaumaturge guild, and never obtained a black mage crystal. So Thaumaturge/Black Mage, are an OOC class for me, but the element based spells the class casts, are an IC one.
As someone said, only an elder character, or someone highly gifted with elemental based magic, could have access to all 6.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-03-2014
(08-03-2014, 02:22 PM)K Wrote: there are basically 6 elements in Eorzea:I wouldn't say they limit themselves, so much as they are limited to this by the elementals.
Earth
Air
Water
Fire
Ice
Lightning
The conjurers who are limited to the shroud, also tend to limit themselves to Earth, Air and Water, because those are the most predominant elements within the shroud. However, I can see conjurers/white mages who are not limited to the shroud, being able to expand their repertoire with the other 3 elements in their most predominant locations. Like Fire could be found in Southern Thanalan, or even the volcanic areas, Ice would be predominantly in Coerthas, and Lightning would be found mostly in Mor Dhona.
My character, who is weak physically, has strong talent when it comes to the elements, so since she isn't limited to the shroud, she does indeed have access to all 6 elements. And IC, she's never visited the thaumaturge guild, and never obtained a black mage crystal. So Thaumaturge/Black Mage, are an OOC class for me, but the element based spells the class casts, are an IC one.
As someone said, only an elder character, or someone highly gifted with elemental based magic, could have access to all 6.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - JFrombaugh - 08-08-2014
My own character Miranda started out her career as a Conjurer. She was drawn to Gridania for its peace, and Conjury out of her desire to be respected. However, she resented the harsh treatment from the natives and by the time she defeated Ifrit she had decided that Gridania's arrogance proved that they weren't really a peace-loving breed and decided she'd rather work for the Scions, possibly switching classes in the process.
I was thinking about having her switch to Summoner by finding a Soul Crystal and then learning Arcanima, but honestly, I got the impression that Thaumaturges were far more "on their own side" than their City State's. Prior to unlocking BLM's story, the whole "religious" side of Thaumaturgy seemed to be far more shoved to the background in the story compared to Conjurer - whereas Conjurer and Arcanist focus around directly serving your City State in some way, Thaumaturge's storyline centered more around your individual training, and felt a lot more like the type of magical art that a typical adventurer would learn for their own purposes, one who may or may not be interested in actually praying or being in service to Thal, unlike the Conjurers who have to develop trust with the elementals.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-08-2014
(08-08-2014, 06:49 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: My own character Miranda started out her career as a Conjurer. She was drawn to Gridania for its peace, and Conjury out of her desire to be respected. However, she resented the harsh treatment from the natives and by the time she defeated Ifrit she had decided that Gridania's arrogance proved that they weren't really a peace-loving breed and decided she'd rather work for the Scions, possibly switching classes in the process.I find that fits well with the whole aesthetic of Ul'dah compared to the others, which is that you rise and fall on your own merits, and primarily about rising your position.
I was thinking about having her switch to Summoner by finding a Soul Crystal and then learning Arcanima, but honestly, I got the impression that Thaumaturges were far more "on their own side" than their City State's. Prior to unlocking BLM's story, the whole "religious" side of Thaumaturgy seemed to be far more shoved to the background in the story compared to Conjurer - whereas Conjurer and Arcanist focus around directly serving your City State in some way, Thaumaturge's storyline centered more around your individual training, and felt a lot more like the type of magical art that a typical adventurer would learn for their own purposes, one who may or may not be interested in actually praying or being in service to Thal, unlike the Conjurers who have to develop trust with the elementals.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - JFrombaugh - 08-08-2014
(08-08-2014, 08:35 PM)Nako Wrote:(08-08-2014, 06:49 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: My own character Miranda started out her career as a Conjurer. She was drawn to Gridania for its peace, and Conjury out of her desire to be respected. However, she resented the harsh treatment from the natives and by the time she defeated Ifrit she had decided that Gridania's arrogance proved that they weren't really a peace-loving breed and decided she'd rather work for the Scions, possibly switching classes in the process.I find that fits well with the whole aesthetic of Ul'dah compared to the others, which is that you rise and fall on your own merits, and primarily about rising your position.
I was thinking about having her switch to Summoner by finding a Soul Crystal and then learning Arcanima, but honestly, I got the impression that Thaumaturges were far more "on their own side" than their City State's. Prior to unlocking BLM's story, the whole "religious" side of Thaumaturgy seemed to be far more shoved to the background in the story compared to Conjurer - whereas Conjurer and Arcanist focus around directly serving your City State in some way, Thaumaturge's storyline centered more around your individual training, and felt a lot more like the type of magical art that a typical adventurer would learn for their own purposes, one who may or may not be interested in actually praying or being in service to Thal, unlike the Conjurers who have to develop trust with the elementals.
Honestly, I felt the aesthetic of Ul'dah was more along the lines of selfishness, apathy, and violence. Only a select few Ul'dahns manage to rise above their base nature to become something better, but the kernel of darkness is still inborn. If there isn't a profit to be made by making the world a hellhole, they might not, but if conditions are tolerable it certainly isn't due to any inborn altruism on the part of those in charge.
If your character is not prepared to deal with someone who he/she grew to know as a close friend over months or even years turning out to have been lying the whole time in an effort to get into position to rob them of every last Gil they've accumulated, he/she shouldn't live in Ul'dah. If you ARE that someone, congratulations, you're living up the Ul'dahn life exactly as intended.
But with Gridanians causing so much emotional harm to Miranda, it was hard for me to tell where else I should put her. So I came up with the idea of her getting lucky and having the thrill of becoming a Job class (namely the one that has the most relevance to the Main Scenario), or just finding a way to learn Thaumaturgy without having to go through the Guild. But whatever the case, my character is definitely allied with the Scions and not the City States.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-09-2014
(08-08-2014, 10:40 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote:I think that is the aesthetic taken to an extreme, as exemplified by certain members of the Syndicate, and not indicative of the average Ul'dahn citizen, and then you also have the other side of that coin in Nanamo, Raubahn and Momodi.(08-08-2014, 08:35 PM)Nako Wrote:(08-08-2014, 06:49 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: My own character Miranda started out her career as a Conjurer. She was drawn to Gridania for its peace, and Conjury out of her desire to be respected. However, she resented the harsh treatment from the natives and by the time she defeated Ifrit she had decided that Gridania's arrogance proved that they weren't really a peace-loving breed and decided she'd rather work for the Scions, possibly switching classes in the process.I find that fits well with the whole aesthetic of Ul'dah compared to the others, which is that you rise and fall on your own merits, and primarily about rising your position.
I was thinking about having her switch to Summoner by finding a Soul Crystal and then learning Arcanima, but honestly, I got the impression that Thaumaturges were far more "on their own side" than their City State's. Prior to unlocking BLM's story, the whole "religious" side of Thaumaturgy seemed to be far more shoved to the background in the story compared to Conjurer - whereas Conjurer and Arcanist focus around directly serving your City State in some way, Thaumaturge's storyline centered more around your individual training, and felt a lot more like the type of magical art that a typical adventurer would learn for their own purposes, one who may or may not be interested in actually praying or being in service to Thal, unlike the Conjurers who have to develop trust with the elementals.
Honestly, I felt the aesthetic of Ul'dah was more along the lines of selfishness, apathy, and violence. Only a select few Ul'dahns manage to rise above their base nature to become something better, but the kernel of darkness is still inborn. If there isn't a profit to be made by making the world a hellhole, they might not, but if conditions are tolerable it certainly isn't due to any inborn altruism on the part of those in charge.
If your character is not prepared to deal with someone who he/she grew to know as a close friend over months or even years turning out to have been lying the whole time in an effort to get into position to rob them of every last Gil they've accumulated, he/she shouldn't live in Ul'dah. If you ARE that someone, congratulations, you're living up the Ul'dahn life exactly as intended.
But with Gridanians causing so much emotional harm to Miranda, it was hard for me to tell where else I should put her. So I came up with the idea of her getting lucky and having the thrill of becoming a Job class (namely the one that has the most relevance to the Main Scenario), or just finding a way to learn Thaumaturgy without having to go through the Guild. But whatever the case, my character is definitely allied with the Scions and not the City States.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Sounsyy - 08-09-2014
Incoming lore on why this is so gosh darn confusing and WHY YOU SHOULD NEVER RETCON SE DAGNABBIT.
In 1.0, Conjury had control over ALL six elements. Lightning, Fire, Earth, Ice, Water, and Wind in that order as according to Essences & Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements.
Why?
Because Elementals exist for all six elements, Conjurers had to be able to commune/manipulate all six elements as well.
So where's the retcon?
When SE started developing lore for The War of the Magi and the early 5th Umbral/Astral Eras, they stated an early form of Thaumaturgy was the first form of magick and its ability to manipulate fire without tinder which allowed Man to survive the Great Ice Age. Woopsies.
So in the revamp in 1.18 they divide the elements under Conjury's control and CHANGE CONJURY INTO A HEALING CLASS OMGZ. They then award Thaumaturgy (a class which had never had ANY control of elemental magic) Lightning, Fire, and Ice. For no real lore reason. The lore behind Conjury and Thaumaturgy did not change to accommodate this elemental respec until 2.0. Which is why 2.0 Conjurers suddenly and inexplicably only have control over three elements, despite being able to communicate with all six. Also why Thaumaturges Lore completely got deleted from 2.0 and the Coco brothers are now teaching you basically Black Magic.
Which is where we get this misconception:
(08-08-2014, 06:49 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: I got the impression that Thaumaturges were far more "on their own side" than their City State's. Prior to unlocking BLM's story, the whole "religious" side of Thaumaturgy seemed to be far more shoved to the background in the story compared to Conjurer - whereas Conjurer and Arcanist focus around directly serving your City State in some way, Thaumaturge's storyline centered more around your individual training, and felt a lot more like the type of magical art that a typical adventurer would learn for their own purposes, one who may or may not be interested in actually praying or being in service to Thal, unlike the Conjurers who have to develop trust with the elementals.
Thaumaturges are actually deeply invested and connected to their Citystate and it's practices. The Arrzaneth Ossuary and the Milvaneth Sacrarium are deeply rooted religious centers for Ul'dah. But beyond that, Thaumaturges offer a wide variety of services to the denizens of Ul'dah. They write all Ul'dahn laws. They perform all funeral rites, including physical and religious preparations for a person's travel into the next realm. Thaumaturges also carry out Last Wills and Testaments - even should they exact vengeance upon another.
There's a great deal of fortune and wealth to be made as a Thaumaturge and devotee to Nald'thal, which is how Dewlala the Director of the Milvaneth Sacrarium became one of the Syndicate. Whether that be from extorting money from the religious and wealthy or by "reclaiming" items belonging to the deceased.
But to even become a Thaumaturge in the first place, you have to devote yourself to the teachings of Nald'thal and do massive amounts of reading and study on the subject of life and death. So much so that it is said that a skilled and studied thaumaturge can actually return someone from dead and glean their deepest secrets - if only for a few moments.
Anyways, TL;DR-
I'm of the opinion that it's completely okay for a Conjurer to have control over all six elements - as honestly, it makes absolutely no lore sense for them not to have. Considering absolutely no lore has been put forward as to why Conjurers no longer have control over Lightning, Fire, and Ice and why suddenly a dynamic must exist between one class having three and the other having three others, I say feel free to continue to abide by 1.0 lore. I mean especially if your character was a Conjurer pre-Calamity. Perhaps the way Conjury is taught has changed in the last five years (makes sense) but if your character pre-dates the Calamity they would've been taught or at least started learning the 1.0 way of things.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Aduu Avagnar - 08-09-2014
one way to think about why the calamity may have changed things, is that water, wind and earth can be considered more passive elements, to do with structure, healing and change, respectively, compared to ice, fire and lightning which could be considered detructive elements.
This being the case, after the calamity, the conjurers are trying to help rebuild the balance in the black shroud, thus the focus on those three elements.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - JFrombaugh - 08-09-2014
(08-09-2014, 10:45 AM)Nako Wrote: I think that is the aesthetic taken to an extreme, as exemplified by certain members of the Syndicate, and not indicative of the average Ul'dahn citizen, and then you also have the other side of that coin in Nanamo, Raubahn and Momodi.
There's a famous saying "A few bad apples spoil the barrel"
Gridania is much the same way - while Kan-E-Senna herself is confirmed to believe that it is best for Gridania to learn to accept outsiders, there's a lot of Wildwood Elezen who believe they are an inherently superior species, that the best form of government is tyranny, and that Adventurers in general are lowlifes who cannot be trusted.
There are quite a few nice folks who are native to Gridania, but just like with Ul'dah, it's the jerks that get noticed.
And really, I've always found it difficult to tell if the "negative stereotypes taken to an extreme" are the exception or the rule. Kan-E-Senna herself does not fit the stereotype of arrogance like I said, but your character almost always has to deal with various NPCs/questgivers that do fit the stereotype.
No offense to the rest of you guys on this forum obviously, but I've always felt that FFXIV's universe is a LOT like the online gaming community in this regard - there's obviously plenty of cool and helpful high-end raiders, but the so-called "elitists" are the ones who give communities that bad name - to the point where many new and casual players alike just flat-out refuse to Heal or Tank in Duty Finder, because they don't want to be the victims of rudeness while they're still learning the ins and outs of their role.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Sounsyy - 08-09-2014
(08-09-2014, 01:23 PM)Nakoli Chalahko Wrote: one way to think about why the calamity may have changed things, is that water, wind and earth can be considered more passive elements, to do with structure, healing and change, respectively, compared to ice, fire and lightning which could be considered detructive elements.
While I'm inclined to agree with that notion, when you talk to E-Sumi-Yan he doesn't make that sound the case.
"Mind you, there is more to conjury than that. By harnessing the power of earth, wind, and water, conjurers are also capable of weaving spells that wreak havoc. In terms of sheer destructive power, conjury may pale in comparison to thaumaturgy, but its capacity to defend one against aggression more than compensates for this relative shortcoming."
- E-Sumi-Yan
Even in the Class Quest "Trial By Earth," they do not speak so much of the elements in the capacity for regrowth as they do in their destructive capacity. What they do speak of is Corrupted Elements, which you figure out later on in the storyline are caused by Voidsent creeping into this world. This could either be caused by Ascians or by the Voidgates opened by Black Mages during the War of the Magi way back in the time of Amdapor, as it seems most of the secrets of Amdapor are bursting from the seams as of late.
"How did it feel to confront that embodiment of earth? To endure its onslaught? Has the crushing power of this element shaken the very marrow of your bones?"
-Nolanel "Trial By Earth"
"Corruption occurs when the land's wounds are prevented from healing. In vanquishing the tainted sprite, you permitted the earth's energies to flow unimpeded, and to nourish the land once more."
-Nolanel "Trial By Earth"
This second quote may lend some credence to your point. By removing tainted sprites we're healing and restoring the forest, but I don't necessarily see how limiting our scope of elements is necessary for the task. We are not required to only use Earth when fighting Earth. Nor in the Wind and Water quests are we restricted to those elements. In fact, according to Essences & Permutations, we should be cleansing the Earth with Fire. The heat of Fire turns to ash all that it touches, thus new Earth is born. This is true even in real life. Sometimes you need a forest fire to regrow a forest.
Which, speaking of forest fires, the Twelveswood has had three major ones in the last 20 years. The loss of life was said to be extensive. It seems odd that the post-Calamity conjurers (the Calamity itself being the third of these major forest fires) would not be able to communicate with the Elementals of Fire.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Gwenneth - 08-10-2014
(08-09-2014, 01:18 PM)Sounsy Wrote: I'm of the opinion that it's completely okay for a Conjurer to have control over all six elements - as honestly, it makes absolutely no lore sense for them not to have. Considering absolutely no lore has been put forward as to why Conjurers no longer have control over Lightning, Fire, and Ice and why suddenly a dynamic must exist between one class having three and the other having three others, I say feel free to continue to abide by 1.0 lore. I mean especially if your character was a Conjurer pre-Calamity. Perhaps the way Conjury is taught has changed in the last five years (makes sense) but if your character pre-dates the Calamity they would've been taught or at least started learning the 1.0 way of things.
Hey guys: First of all, I want to thank all of you for how amazing this discussion has been. I've been keeping up with it, but have also been away traveling for a bit. x__x
Sounsy, you totally jogged my memories of being a Conjurer pre-Calamity, in 1.0. (Reima's been around since the original Alpha days). It's been so long that I'd almost forgotten that we originally had control over all six elements.
Also, K'ailia's mention of Conjurers who exist outside of Gridania and whether or not they'd be more effected by the elements prominent in those locations only has me thinking more and more about why Conjurers would suddenly be completely incapable of communing with the other three elements from an RP standpoint.
In Reima's case, I wanted to give her a little story concerning the character's transition from 1.0 to 2.0. Six years ago, before the Calamity in 1.0, she was a Conjurer in Gridania. During the events of the Calamity, she was relocated to Ul'dah (yadda yadda, backstory elements that will eventually make their way from my head and notebooks to the Wiki). When I picked the game back up in 2.0, an amnesiac Conjurer Reima was making her way back to Gridania in order to decipher the voices of the elementals that she'd never stopped hearing--however faint--even while in Ul'dah.
Remembering that she (at one time at least) had direct control over all six elements just adds a bit of validity to the idea that she could still commune with all six elements, and perhaps once again learn to harness them.
So now I'm just wondering about the points made on 1.0's lore. If the technical aspects of Conjurer were retconned, but the lore never was, then...does the canon just become what we make of it?