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+--- Thread: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy (/showthread.php?tid=7786)
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - JFrombaugh - 08-10-2014
(08-09-2014, 01:18 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Thaumaturges are actually deeply invested and connected to their Citystate and it's practices. The Arrzaneth Ossuary and the Milvaneth Sacrarium are deeply rooted religious centers for Ul'dah. But beyond that, Thaumaturges offer a wide variety of services to the denizens of Ul'dah. They perform all funeral rites, including physical and religious preparations for a person's travel into the next realm. Thaumaturges also carry out Last Wills and Testaments - even should they exact vengeance upon another.
There's a great deal of fortune and wealth to be made as a Thaumaturge and devotee to Nald'thal, which is how Dewlala the Director of the Milvaneth Sacrarium became one of the Syndicate. Whether that be from extorting money from the religious and wealthy or by "reclaiming" items belonging to the deceased.
But to even become a Thaumaturge in the first place, you have to devote yourself to the teachings of Nald'thal and do massive amounts of reading and study on the subject of life and death. So much so that it is said that a skilled and studied thaumaturge can actually return someone from dead and glean their deepest secrets - if only for a few moments.
But the thing is, even if THMs are followers of Nald'Thal, I always got the impression that they had a lot in common with Shadow Priests in WoW:
http://www.wowwiki.com/Cult_of_Forgotten_Shadow
In other words, I always thought the main difference between the "teachings" of Nophica and Nald'thal was that Conjurers (and by extension White Mages) absorb greatness from nature and reflect that onto others, while Black Mages believe that power comes from within themselves; they use this power to shape the universe.
In the story Ququruka actually calls the brothers of the guild out for being heretics and not showing true faith or devotion.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - LiadansWhisper - 08-10-2014
(08-10-2014, 03:20 PM)Reima Wrote: So now I'm just wondering about the points made on 1.0's lore. If the technical aspects of Conjurer were retconned, but the lore never was, then...does the canon just become what we make of it?
I think that you could make a sound argument, in this case, that just because you don't have access to actual spells in-game does not mean that you can't interact with those elementals in-character.
I remember being told that Conjurers had access to Fire, Lightning, and Ice spells in 1.0, but I was not aware that they retconned a bunch of stuff about Thaumaturges In fact, I had no idea how involved Thaumaturges were in Ul'dahn society, or that they originally had no real interaction with the elements at all. Â My main is a Conjurer, and I don't really like DPS, so I only ran so far through the Thaumaturge questline to get my needed cross-classes. Â I figured it was close enough to 1.0, and since pretty much every game I've played so far has had Mages with ice and fire and such, I just figured it was par for the course. Â Oops!
And while I watched the questlines for White Mage from 1.0, I never found anything about Conjurer from 1.0. Â So thank you, Sounsyy, for enlightening me. Â ^_^ Â I appreciate it.
But it kind of goes back to how they've been divorcing, more or less, the Conjurers and White Mages from the Elementals this time around, which makes me quite sad.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - Sounsyy - 08-11-2014
(08-10-2014, 03:21 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: In other words, I always thought the main difference between the "teachings" of Nophica and Nald'thal was that Conjurers (and by extension White Mages) absorb greatness from nature and reflect that onto others, while Black Mages believe that power comes from within themselves; they use this power to shape the universe.
I never played WoW and wasn't really into the Lore so I don't really have an answer for that comparison. But I can say that the teachings of Nophica and Nald'thal have very little to do with power. Also that Black Magic has very little to do with anything in regards to modern Thaumaturgy and its religious practices.
To truly understand Thaumaturgy, you have to understand the duality that persists through all aspects of Ul'dahn culture, stemming from their worship of Nald'thal. Nald'thal governs all reality through his two aspects (Life and Death) and ensure that order is maintained. According to 1.0 lore, Ul'dah itself used to be divided into two halves to mirror the duality of Nald and Thal. This is why there are two temples within the city.
Nald, the god of commerce, is worshiped at the Milvaneth Sacrarium. Nald is symbolic of the lifestyle in which Ul'dah leads. Commerce, wealth, material value, trade. To be poor is to have wasted the precious gift of life. It is said that the wealthy worship Nald since they are grateful for what they have in life.
Thal, the god of the afterlife, is worshiped at the Arrzaneth Ossuary. Thal guides the departed to a better place upon the aetherial plane. It is for this reason that the poor and underprivileged worship Thal in the hopes they will have a better afterlife than their current life.
We know also from lore that when a person dies their aether leaves this world and travels to the aetherial plane. But it does not stay there. Once there, it returns to our plane and forms new life. Thus the cycle of death and rebirth goes, the cycle of Nald'thal. It is this cycle that interests Thaumaturges. Thaumaturges intently study death and aether because they believe that by better understanding Death, they might better understand and appreciate Life.
This duality is also seen in 1.0 Thaumaturge spells. Thaumaturges used Astral and Umbral magic. Light and Dark. Life and Death. Thaumaturges used what many games refer to as Blood magic, in that they caused harm to themselves to heal, shield, and restore others. They could even resurrect the dead, mechanically and in lore. Speaking more of mechanics, Thaumaturges would cast either Astral or Umbral aspected magic at their target, making that target more susceptible to other spells of that aspect.
Black Magic has very little to do with this concept because the Thaumaturgy lore had already been unceremoniously swept under the Ul'dahn Retcon Rug by the time Black Magic lore was released. Black Magic is very simply just a technique. A way to drain aether from the planet to cast a spell instead of draining ones own limited aether. It was a means to gain power no mortal should be physically able to wield. It holds no value for Life, it exists only to bring great Death. That is why it does not follow the teachings of Nald'thal. Which is why I was and still am terribly disappointed by the 2.0 Thaumaturgy quests. The Coco brothers are not Thaumaturges. They have no respect for Life. They simply revel in power and death. Which is not thaumaturgy, it's the creed of Black Magic.
I highly recommend checking out old Ul'dahn lore on THM, PGL, and even GLA as these class quests suffered greatly at the hands of 2.0. THM and PGL lore doesn't even exist in 2.0, and the 2.0 storyline for GLA is a sad excuse of a replacement for The Hellfire Phoenix and the Bloodsand's fall from grace.
(08-10-2014, 08:01 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I remember being told that Conjurers had access to Fire, Lightning, and Ice spells in 1.0, but I was not aware that they retconned a bunch of stuff about Thaumaturges In fact, I had no idea how involved Thaumaturges were in Ul'dahn society, or that they originally had no real interaction with the elements at all.
One thing I forgot to mention in my last post that I'll go back and add, is that a lot of people don't know that Thaumaturges actually make Ul'dah's laws. Not the Sultana, not the Syndicate. Those two bodies of government (there's that duality again...) are actually governed by laws laid down by the Ossuary. Naturally, large sums of gil donated to the Thaumaturge's Guild could never hurt sway diplomacy.
(08-10-2014, 08:01 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: And while I watched the questlines for White Mage from 1.0, I never found anything about Conjurer from 1.0. Â So thank you, Sounsyy, for enlightening me. Â ^_^ Â I appreciate it.
You're welcome! I highly recommend checking out the 1.0 CNJ storyline as it's one of my favorite stories. It actually had very little to do with studying conjury and learning to master Nature. It dealt more with Hearers and Elementals and Wildlings. Brother Morys was a character I was really hoping would make it into 2.0. But as you pointed out, 2.0 has very sadly pushed all things Elemental to a remote corner of the background.
-1.0 CNJ Quests
-Of Men and Dragons
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - LiadansWhisper - 08-11-2014
Can I just say that I really think that the 1.0 Thm lore was way more interesting than what we have now? Â I've been really torn over the fact that while we have gods, there doesn't appear to be any real formal worship. Â Even the shrines in the Sanctum of the Twelve are completely bare (which is odd for a number of reasons, at least to me). Â It's bugged the crap out of me because one of the things that "completes" a culture is some kind of faith or religion. Â Without that, it just doesn't seem nearly as "real" to me (which is probably why I liked FFX so much, even tho the religion was rotten to the core, at least we got to see that there was one, sort of!).
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - JFrombaugh - 08-11-2014
So going by what Sounsyy said, it sounds to me like my character actually should be an Arcanist - because that art does not require "respect" for your city state's religion and traditions as such.
But like I've said to death already, she only chose Conjury because she was attracted to it and thought it would fit her philosophy of life - but then the natives kept letting her down.
RE: Conjurers and Thaumaturgy - LiadansWhisper - 08-11-2014
(08-11-2014, 06:18 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: So going by what Sounsyy said, it sounds to me like my character actually should be an Arcanist - because that art does not require "respect" for your city state's religion and traditions as such.
But like I've said to death already, she only chose Conjury because she was attracted to it and thought it would fit her philosophy of life - but then the natives kept letting her down.
I'm pretty sure you don't have to explain to anyone else why you choose to portray the class or job that you portray.