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+--- Thread: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It (/showthread.php?tid=8018)
Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Melodia - 08-19-2014
Well.....after a foray into rp yesterday I have discovered a fatal and devestating flaw in trying to play as law enforcement in this game. You have no authority.
Zero. None. Nil. Zilch.
If I as a Yellowjacket try to push my authority....I have none. I can call on my fake linkpearl and threaten arrest but I can't actually do it. And all it takes is for someone to call that bluff for it to fall apart in seconds. And once that happens, especially in a crowded place, whatever minimal, paper thin legitimacy you had in that role is ripped to shreds quite fast. The fact is without legitimacy and authority, playing as a law enforcement person is akin to me dressing up as a cop on Halloween. Suit looks nice, but that's about all.
I now need to completely rethink Melodia and how to even play her in that role because it was clear yesterday that she isn't even take very seriously.
Don't know......need to rethink it a bit. May need to shelve her for a bit until figure it out. But....I guess at least I have a fun back story to write. *shrugs*
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Nebbs - 08-19-2014
This is not uncommon, and is just a specific example of RP without consensus. You are expecting other players to accept your character and the implied position and authority... also consequences.
I think there are two ways you can take this. You can find a group of people who are willing to accept this and thereby have the consensus, or you have to find a way to play your concept so that it does not require the agreement of others.
In this latter one you limit the consequences of your character action to exclude others and just offer an invitation to take your action on board. So rather than summoning the guards to arrest them you make the call, find they are otherwise occupied and make a report instead.
In a way it is not power emoting your character and giving people the option, without backing yourself into a corner.
Another way I have seen this done is to create a group who all play the "law" and then be present in the game. Over time people come to accept you and will come to you for help. This also comes with a warning that in Open RP peoples styles will vary and you need to be able to dance between them all.
To summarise, you have to be fleet on your RP feet and always leave the consequences of your actions open to people to take as they will, and have a way to back away from any adverse power emoting or trolling actions others may put in your way.
Hope that helps a little?
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Coatleque - 08-19-2014
This is why in the past I have tended to shy away from those who play villains or generally despicable people. 9 out of 10 just want an excuse to be douche bags in game because they know there's no true authority to stop them.
On the other side, people in the role of assumed authority have the temptation to overstep their own bounds in the opposite way. The whole concept doesn't work unless the community respects the boundary of the character(s).
I have yet to threaten an arrest to anyone in game. I wouldn't do so either unless I spoke to the person in tells first to establish where they were trying to go with their RP at the time.
The only real thing you can do is call for help. Once the 'offender' realizes they are surrounded by people set against them, and potentially facing blacklisting by half the RP community if they don't comply, they will probably step down.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Melodia - 08-19-2014
That's the tough part....in Limsa 99% if the people are criminals and so it's like I am Batman without all the cool gadgets and such and no Commisioner Gordon to back me up.
Part of the problem for me personally is my complete inability to rp with any number of people above one. So that's a factor. I dunno....just reallllly need to rethink Melodia and the Yellowjacket bit I think.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Nebbs - 08-19-2014
(08-19-2014, 08:16 AM)Rurutani Wrote: ...
Part of the problem for me personally is my complete inability to rp with any number of people above one. So that's a factor. I dunno....just reallllly need to rethink Melodia and the Yellowjacket bit I think.
Not wanting to tell you what to play but my take on this would be to play a junior officer who is fresh to the job and very inexperienced. There is more RP fun in being the underdog/victim in many ways.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Berrod Armstrong - 08-19-2014
Communication is key! If you see Johnny Jimshanks sticking up some poor drunk Roegadyn bro and want your character to get in on stopping that action, send Johnny a tell, asking him if it would be alright if your character moved in to try to stop the robbery and attempt an arrest.Â
Depending on Johnny's response, you'll know whether or not jumping in there will be worth it or a waste of your time! If Johnny doesn't respond, try perhaps one more time and if there's nothing after that, it's perhaps best to leave it alone.Â
It really all depends on establishing where each roleplayer stands on where they want their narrative to go. If Johnny Jimshanks wants a successful robbery in his story, it's best to back off and let that happen. If Broegadyn Brahyolosyn wants to be robbed, cool! Â If either of them invite you to attempt to stop the proceedings, go in and play things off -- but don't expect to be successful in doing so!
Remember, calling for backup may be a touchy thing as well -- also communicate with the players involved if it would be okay for your character to be allowed backup; especially if they outnumber you!
This is just an example of a situation but as I like to emphasize: communication, communication, communication.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Cato - 08-19-2014
It's very difficult to portray one's character as being part of a law enforcement organisation. Personally I'd suggest just doing it as part of a private story alongside some like-minded friends as there's no guarantee that random role-players will play along with it even when it's done well and makes a lot of sense.
I've yet to see a role-playing community that lacked an alarming number of role-players who decide that their character can conveniently start a brawl in the middle of a populated settlement or commit a crime in broad daylight only to have no accountability for their actions.
It's a shame, but a lot of villains simply aren't willing to play nicely. Of course there's also people playing city guards who go out of their way to abuse their power and then have no consequences for their actions either.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Melodia - 08-19-2014
I just want to clarify, I am not bashing any players at all here or trying to say they weren't willing to play. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the overall difficulty or near impossibility of being able to properly play as law enforcement due to critical functions being missing (i.e. public support, and actual authority). I just dont anyone thinking I'm pointing fingers.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Coatleque - 08-19-2014
(08-19-2014, 10:07 AM)Rurutani Wrote: ...(i.e. public support,...
I've actually seen an overwhelming amount of support for law enforcement in Ul'dah. The community always amazes me with the shared reverence they have in-game for characters with assumed authority (Sultansworn in particular).
Limsa Lominsa may be a different story simply because of the reputation of it being a Pirate's haven. When the general populace is already built around a city of thieves, it will be hard to establish an actual police force.
I would encourage you not to give up, however. The longer you stick it out the more likely others will join in over time.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - C'kayah Polaali - 08-19-2014
As a criminal RPer, I've got to say that OOC communication really is key. RPing a law enforcement officer trying to arrest someone is still RP, and it has to be based on an underpinning of trust.Â
Send the criminal a tell (as Berrod suggested) asking if they want to play you coming after them. There are a lot of reasons why they wouldn't want you to. Perhaps they're in an established top-down (i.e.: with a dungeon master, a plot outline, etc) roleplay, and there isn't room for someone to jump in - people who play these sorts of plots tend to be wary of random people who jump in to join them, as they're used to trolls and people who want to jump in and assume the heroic role in the plot. Perhaps they've had a bad experience with godmodders and they'll ignore anyone who comes in to RP a conflict with them cold. Perhaps they're simply douchebags who don't want to RP anything beyond them acting like bad guys. It doesn't really matter why they don't want you to jump in with them, the fact that they don't simply means that you can't assume a position of authority with them. It's always a little awkward - you end up having to ignore criminal activity that's happening right in your sight - but that's sort of the way it is with any conflict RP. And law enforcement RP is definitely conflict RP.
There are a lot of criminal RPers who roleplay out in public specifically to provide hooks for law enforcement RPers (or others) to interact with them. I know I definitely do this, and it's resulted in a hell of a lot of good RP with said John Laws.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Zhavi - 08-19-2014
(08-19-2014, 07:12 AM)Rurutani Wrote: Well.....after a foray into rp yesterday I have discovered a fatal and devestating flaw in trying to play as law enforcement in this game. You have no authority.
Zero. None. Nil. Zilch.
If I as a Yellowjacket try to push my authority....I have none. I can call on my fake linkpearl and threaten arrest but I can't actually do it. And all it takes is for someone to call that bluff for it to fall apart in seconds. And once that happens, especially in a crowded place, whatever minimal, paper thin legitimacy you had in that role is ripped to shreds quite fast. The fact is without legitimacy and authority, playing as a law enforcement person is akin to me dressing up as a cop on Halloween. Suit looks nice, but that's about all.
I now need to completely rethink Melodia and how to even play her in that role because it was clear yesterday that she isn't even take very seriously.
Don't know......need to rethink it a bit. May need to shelve her for a bit until figure it out. But....I guess at least I have a fun back story to write. *shrugs*
If you had npc'd dudes coming in to arrest Zhi, I would have gone with it. Trust your partners! I was actually expecting you to take her outside and have a npc to help assist, at which point Zhi would have likely tried to run and probably would have been taken out.
I play it like this: until the weapons come out, until the eorzean equivalent of cuffs come out, until the criminal-scum-was-resisting-so-I-laid-into-them comes out, Zhi is going to keep trying to talk her way out of something. You need to be willing to push that part. With other players, you could (and should) ask first, but when you've been playing with someone for awhile, don't be afraid to just do it. I trust you, man.
Remember -- Zhi doesn't take anyone seriously until they show physical proof that they can back up what they say. Even if it means taking her outside at knifepoint somewhere quiet and curbstomping her, do it!
edit - and above all, if rp is ever going in a direction you're not happy with when you're rping with me, just let me know. I'm not above finagling a situation to help push things one way or another.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - FreelanceWizard - 08-19-2014
The lack of authority is a massive problem both practically and conceptually. At a practical level, it means you have to do a lot of OOC communication and accept that sometimes you're just not going to be able to get involved. At a conceptual level, there's some players (like me, for instance) who refuse to recognize any asserted authority in open, freeform RP without an established plot or group by another player as it's not fair to other RPers -- it essentially requires I consent to whatever actions you choose to take upon me with that authority, or that I not RP with you at all. You can see why some RPers might balk with, "And what gives you the right to do that?" Part of open freeform RP is not asserting actions that others must accept. Is this a pain for ICA = ICC? Does it mean that people get to get away with murder, sometimes literally? It does, unfortunately. If you want to intervene, though, that's where OOC communication comes into play -- not simply asserting the right to intervene by way of character concept.
In an FC, LS, or other previously agreed upon arrangement, things are a lot better. I've seen OOC channels in other games set up for "cops and robbers" where people can set up crimes to be stopped, law enforcement patrols for the bad guys to evade, etc. Since everyone in that group consents to the authority of those within it, ICA = ICC can be enforced, scenes where others shouldn't get involved can be coordinated for private locations, and most importantly, no one who doesn't want to be involved has to be.
I realize my opinion on asserting authority isn't popular, which is why I typically avoid RPing anywhere where that happens with regularity. I know some will say, "Hey, but I've seen you at Gus's tavern event, and he has security!" That's true -- but that's an event with established rules, and by attending, I'm consenting to his security measures. It's his event, so I'm agreeing to his rules.
EDIT: I clarified my position a bit. Obviously, in the context of a plot or something else where I've given consent, authority is fine. L'yhta got smacked down by Eamont at the last meeting of the Tower (deservedly so, I might add) and that was fine. It's authority without consent that bothers me.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Eva - 08-19-2014
From one who RPed as a Temple Knight in FFXI, I feel your pain. While your character may be associated with an executive faction, many times other characters will simply choose not to respect that authority. There are often a lot of assumptions made in either direction as to how capable (or incapable) that sort of personnel is regarded. I cannot tell you how many prison break-outs we experienced... It got pretty silly.
The XIV crowd is much more mature though, and seems more cognizent of causality and the consequences that exist for particular actions. And, as others have stated, I've seen a certain amount of respect and reverence for those characters who align themselves with the various policing forces (Sultansworn, Yellowjackets, Wood Wailers, etc.) I find this to be encouraging, but I suppose all it takes is one to disregard your call to imaginary backup, etc. I wouldn't let it deter you though.
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - Aya - 08-19-2014
Fortunately, you've really got a wonderful assortment of criminal RPers on Balmung with whom to work :-]
I think something to keep in mind is that any such scene is not a contest, and it adversarial only in the IC sense. Neither party is actually trying to win, if the criminal escapes the LE player has not lost, if the criminal is caught, the criminal player has not lost. The goal of the interaction is the scene itself, and the RP that develops from it: its a cooperative effort between both players.Â
I think when you start from that point of view you'll have an easier time dealing with people who spurn your authority
RE: Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It - No Longer Exists - 08-19-2014
Hello! *Tips Hat* Pardon the intrusion and the possibly flammable statement I'm about to make here. Please don't reply in anger, but give it a good moment or five to ruminate. I mean no ill will to anyone.
This thread and the varying opinions of RPers in general is the intrinsic reason why, to use a meme, "we can't have nice things." Functionally, roleplaying can be solo (as we see in fan-fictions and personal stories written about our characters to provide depth) or roleplaying can be multiplayer (exemplified by RP-FCs, groups of friends, tabletop gaming groups and MMORPG <--- It's built into the term. RPG.) However, the individual tends to look at the "RPG" in MMORPG and forget all about the "MMO" or Massively Multiplayer Online. Inherently, you are entering a world, a universe, an entire existence in these games and these existences have something that happily parallels our reality. Rules. Laws. Established Heirarchy. Organizations. There is a standard of Order involved.
Now, don't get me wrong. Everyone loves a Billy Badass (pardon my language). The criminal, the scallywag, the obnoxious rogue stealing all the loot that the rest of the party hasn't nailed down. Even that guy who hits first and asks questions later can be great fun. Keyword: can.Â
But, I digress. Wouldn't it be awesome if we had an amorphous entity hovering over our heads during our individual daily lives in the really real world (there ain't no coming back.....we killed you dead, there ain't no coming back...*cough* FOCUS, HATTER!) that piloted us around and when something we didn't like happened or worse, something truly devastating was about to happen to us, that amorphous entity suddenly screamed "STOP! I do not allow this to happen." and your life was spared? Yeah, that would be pretty fantastic! I certainly think so!
Does that happen? No. No, it does not. This is where RP communities on MMOs tend to break down. It happened on WoW after its golden age and I'm sure many of you have seen it happen on various other MMORPGs over the years. Have you ever wondered why these communities break down? I have.
People quit. (Yep, definitely happens a lot for various reasons)
RP stops being interesting and players turn toward the PvE. (Also happens often)
Someone or a group of people alienates an individual or a group of individuals. (Common as well)
I'm certain there are a lot of reasons for community breakdown but one absolute fact behind each and every one of them (sometimes even those who quit for "RL reasons") is simple: It stops being fun.
Now, you can't please everyone and I don't expect anyone reading this to try. I do feel inclined to make this general statement though (Please don't hit me, Freelance).
Exerting your own personalized control over a roleplaying environment where you, the individual, are a teensy weensy percentage of the community is what breaks that community down over time. It's a small leak in the dam that eventually creates a flood.
Why did these golden ages of RP happen? Everyone involved worked together. To continue the WoW example mentioned previously, everyone conformed (OH NO, the dreaded C word!) to a model standard system. Those who didn't? They kept to themselves. Yes, there were many instances of community drama when one or a group tried to stray from the established paradigm for their own personal enjoyment but on the whole, we had ourselves a massively multiplayer online good time.Â
So what I'm saying here is not "You're all wrong." More like "You're all half-right." If you met someone you thought was the coolest person in the world, loved them for who they were and spent months getting to know them only to have a mugger walk up to the two of you and pop a cap in their head. You'd be traumatized. If that happened and a split second before the trigger was pulled, God (or flying spaghetti monster depending on your preference) bellowed down from above "I DO NOT CONSENT", I think you'd be pretty traumatized too regardless of the joy that your friend is still alive.
While that never happens within the awareness of your characters, it does take some of the drama out of the character's development when you're stacking the deck as a player. If the game mechanics and lore (something we've all talked about at great length) determine that your level 2 Archer gets one-shot killed running across Northern Thanalan, it's safe to say that somebody could really mess up your character's day by running down the husting's strip and shin-kicking them for no apparent reason. Part of the thrill of living (especially living as an adventurer) is the sensation that you could die stepping out the Gates of Nald.
So why doesn't that apply to RP? Personal preference. And it's a double edged sword. Yes, it sucks when someone named Fartsmasher Pandabutt announces that they drive their sword through your character's skull just to be a douchenozzle. Yes, there are times when you want to be Billy Badass. Why can't Billy Badass be something your character earns rather than something you "control" into an outcome Out of Character?
My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."
Naturally, there are some necessary exclusions to this process. I would happily ignore Fartsmasher Pandabutt if he tried to kill Galen, but that's really the extremist situation. I can understand the imposition of environmental alterations (as discussed in another thread about the one group's story where Ul'dah's water supply being poisoned) but on a "I fought the law and told the law's players they couldn't stop me." aspect, it's quite a different animal.
Then again, what do I know? I'm a mad Hatter.