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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 04:53 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: MNK quests pretty much states that chakra = access to Aether for Monk abilities. Inner Beast likely the same.
If memory serves me correctly (along with XIVDB's dialogue logs from class quests), nowhere in the WAR job quests is it stated or even implied that anything a warrior does is based on aether. Their skills are described as ancient techniques, and the inner beast is implied to be a trance-like berserker state, some sort of primal rage that lies buried deep within. The relic armor is outright stated to be imbued with arcane enchantments, yes, but that's about as magical as it gets when it comes to Warrior.
More or less spot-on with Monk, though, barring some simplification.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-01-2014
Who knows what sort of targets Dragoons likely use? Â They're probably trying to hit very specific points on a dragon since so much of the beast is not worth the risk of a jump attack to strike! Â Learning to hit targets the size of marmot hardly seems unreasonable in the realm of FF.
I certainly agree that any concept can be played poorly, but there seems to be a serious "lol dragoon" current throughout this thread. I don't like to see anyone's RP dismissed out of hand, especially with an air of superiority; Â it just isn't nice!Â
Dragoons know how to jump in combat. They know how to do so very well. They've spent their lives learning to do just that. They've honed skills that are unlike any in the real world, and can accomplish aerial feats only possible in fantasy. Just flatly stating, "it's stupid to jump in combat because believable" is not going to count as a valid justification for being a jerk in my book.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-01-2014
If I came off as disrespectful I apologize, it wasn't my intent. My point was only that there's hard(er, comparatively) evidence that the other melee jobs are functionally channeling aether to bolster their attacks (barring paladin, I think, though Spirits Within certainly doesn't look like practical swordplay) compared to a dragoon's practiced expertise.
This is actually a subject I run into frequently vis a vis "aether!" being the explanation for everything. Similar to how I believe that a lalafell isn't going to be able to just soak a straight punch to the face by another race I find it hard to believe that jumping over and over allows you to ignore physics eventually.
I'll say it again for posterity, though: I've never run into an issue with this in roleplay before. I'm (in)effectively arguing against strawmen and revealing my own snobby biases in the midst of it. I'm hoping we get a bit more explanation about how Jump works, even if they just handwave it as "aether does it!" because then we'd at least have an explanation.
That, though, opens up interesting concepts. The title "Dragoon" is only bestowed on people who kill dragons officially. Not everyone killing dragons uses a spear, nor do all of them done the armor. There's a whole frontline in Whitebrim where a FATE spawns and you've got elezen in sword and shield running to defend. If Jump is just martial prowess magnified by aether, it stands to reason that anybody would be able to learn the attack.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-01-2014
Or that could be a difference between the Dragoon "job" (a class of Ishgardian warrior) and the title itself. Paladins have a similar asymmetry.
And sorry Warren that particular argument just kind of riled me because it's a damned if you do damned if you don't moment.
I also don't like "the aether did it" but it's absolutely essential to understanding and accepting EVERY job, and most classes in the game. Â Leaving Dragoons to hang in the wind as the only job that has to be realistic and believable is... I don't know.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - FreelanceWizard - 12-01-2014
I think the issue is trying to apply considerations of realism to a superhero setting -- which I argue FFXIV, and FF generally, is. Superhero settings have as a trope that everyone at the same "power rank" is roughly equal, no matter what their source of power happens to be. Sure, individuals may have advantages in various circumstances, but on the whole, your "Power Level 10" characters (to steal a term from Mutants and Masterminds) will all be equally matched against each other. That definitely seems to be the case in FFXIV; fighters whose only "power" is unbridled rage and a giant axe can stand toe to toe with people who can summon giant fireballs or instantly heal wounds.
Is it realistic? Not especially. However, our characters definitely don't live in a realistic setting.
We have print newspapers for a tiny learned class. We have lighting systems, ceiling fans, robot walkers, and airships, but chocobo-drawn carriages and walking are still the way most people travel. This is a world with a weird techno-fantasy, anime-powered flavor, and part of that is that, yes, some guy can leap dramatically into the air and impale a marmot with pinpoint accuracy -- but if he tries to do it to a Paladin with sword and shield, she can block the attack with a smirk and a dramatic shower of sparks.I guess my point is to be concerned about the narrative and effective agency of characters and not get too wrapped up in what's realistic or not in a setting that is rather fantastical.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 05:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: If memory serves me correctly (along with XIVDB's dialogue logs from class quests), nowhere in the WAR job quests is it stated or even implied that anything a warrior does is based on aether. Their skills are described as ancient techniques, and the inner beast is implied to be a trance-like berserker state, some sort of primal rage that lies buried deep within. The relic armor is outright stated to be imbued with arcane enchantments, yes, but that's about as magical as it gets when it comes to Warrior.
More or less spot-on with Monk, though, barring some simplification.
It not being stated directly doesn't mean it won't turn out to be the case (also why I said likely - I've done those quests and know there's no mention of aether. Curious Gorge's also kind of an idiot). Yes, it's simplified because it was meant to be a super simple gross simplification.
Also, consider that warriors' only power is getting hit the face. That's sad.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kage - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 10:06 AM)Kage Wrote: I mean, some fantasy books do use real life logic! Even though there are gods who actually do make their appearances and aren't just faith based... Or magic. Or Jewels that can wreak havoc on a kingdom's enemy but which will also wreak havoc on the land's harvest.My point is that, yes it's fantasy. But there's still -something- for us to use to belief. Many of us prefer to use real life as that supplement. Not everyone can suspend their sense of belief so easily. Not everyone can accept "fantasy!" because there are many elements in fantasy worlds that are, SURPRISE, still relatable and believable for us.
Or the lady knights still having to deal with them monthlies.
Even if they have magicked jewelry birth control.
Different strokes for different folks.
I've done some "black mage" rp as well as sword and board -and- PAUNNNNNCH in FFXIV but I always try to think about what makes sense in -my- mind as well as that of those I RP with. If it's not going to jive I simply strive to make sure that doesn't become an issue or do not actively pursue to RP with them.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Erik Mynhier - 12-04-2014
I am sorry.......
I am so sorry......
I tried to fight the urge.......
But I can't anymore......
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
My argument against a dragoon's jump is that there's a point where they're taking a vertical leap. It's unrealistic to assume that the person being jumped at will just stay in one place. The person moves to the side, so what then? The Dragoon already made the attack--they've already committed to the jump. They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something. This is where "Dragoons fight dragons" comes into play. The dragon is a large, slow creature. They either lead their target or they strike while it's on the ground and can't move quickly. The powerful, downward fall would be enough to pierce the dragon's skin and cause a great deal of damage with their spear. It's the whole point of their attacks, and it's why there's a ton of dragons in Coerthas (you know, with the dragoons). It's also kind of why they are named dragoons.Â
The game description itself states: “Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes."
Everything else has already pretty much been stated and clarified =)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - TheShii - 12-04-2014
a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
don't care what y'all think.
we need more dragoon on dragoon violence to confirm.
GOTTA GET MY WUXIA ON.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:48 AM)Val Wrote: My argument against a dragoon's jump is that there's a point where they're taking a vertical leap. It's unrealistic to assume that the person being jumped at will just stay in one place. The person moves to the side, so what then? The Dragoon already made the attack--they've already committed to the jump. They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something. This is where "Dragoons fight dragons" comes into play. The dragon is a large, slow creature. They either lead their target or they strike while it's on the ground and can't move quickly. The powerful, downward fall would be enough to pierce the dragon's skin and cause a great deal of damage with their spear. It's the whole point of their attacks, and it's why there's a ton of dragons in Coerthas (you know, with the dragoons). It's also kind of why they are named dragoons.Â
The game description itself states: “Of all the things that are symbolic of the nation of Ishgard, few are more recognized than the dragoon. Born amidst the timeless conflict between men and dragons, these lance-wielding knights have developed an aerial style of combat, that they might better pierce the scaled hides of their mortal foes."
Everything else has already pretty much been stated and clarified =)
The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.
Strawman: "You can't hit me because I jumped, and then I landed on you and then jumped again."
I don't think anyone would find it unreasonable that the attack can be guided, but I don't think anyone would find it reasonable that the attack is perfectly accurate.
Edit:
(12-04-2014, 04:53 AM)TheShii Wrote: a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
*cough*
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:48 AM)Val Wrote: Â They can't just change directions in air, unless they can somehow fly or something.ÂWhile I don't really see the point of a dragoon jumping to attack a lalafell pugilist or something, I'm not gonna outright stop someone from emoting it. They just better be damn well prepared for the pugilist to end up evading it.
Also, on the topic of changing direction mid air, isn't that what the little wings on the Gaebolg (and replicas) are for? Not that I expect all dragoons to have that sort of thing, but the mechanism IS available for a slight change of direction if the player is reasonable and creative enough. I admit I eyerolled when I read the thing on Gaebolg, and I eyerolled when I saw someone I used to roleplay with use it. But that's just me.
That said, there are a few jumps that I would allow against my character in combat based on what I've seen so far, and fights I've enjoyed. There was an opponent who did a spineshatter dive and described it as a concussive impact -- so that when he missed, the concussion still affected poor Berrod. The other jump he used was EVASIVE (though I joked about his character being animation locked and getting hit anyway) -- he used his jump to AVOID being hit with something and I got a kick out of it. Things like that -- stretch the fantasy creative muscles without going overboard with SUPAR ULTRAR abilities. Sure! Do your high speed aerial thing, but make it work, give it openings, believable advantages and effects...leave it so that the opponent can take it, work with it and build on the mutual narrative of battle.
BUUUUT, that applies to more than just Dragoons though.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.That's assuming they're wearing it though - Granted, any dragoon RPer would chomp at wearing the AF but still.
Also, just saying, they get hit by a Jump, they're skewered regardless of how tough their armor is. So anyone not dodging that shit and just no selling it is about as bad as the DRG using Jump against a human, unrestrained opponent.
Unless they're gonna start pretending their armor (and their inner organs from the blow) are tougher than dragon scales.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 08:47 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: The fins on the AF and the relic weapon are stated to help a dragoon control and aim their descent. That's not terribly unrealistic, especially since we see exactly how flexible the armor is in the Heavensward trailer (look again when Midlander is putting the gauntlet on at how many fins/spikes/moving pieces there are! It looks more like techarmor than not). The real question comes down to "how much control." The ability to home in on a moving target that's mansized is... Pretty powerful in the scheme of things.That's assuming they're wearing it though - Granted, any dragoon RPer would chomp at wearing the AF but still.
Also, just saying, they get hit by a Jump, they're skewered regardless of how tough their armor is. So anyone not dodging that shit and just no selling it is about as bad as the DRG using Jump against a human, unrestrained opponent.
Unless they're gonna start pretending their armor (and their inner organs from the blow) are tougher than dragon scales.
If someone takes the full-bore attack from a lance with fifty~ fulms of downward momentum, sure, but when does anyone ever take a full hit in RP? Just because the attack is centered on someone doesn't mean it lands. It's not unreasonable to see a greataxe or a shield playing baseball with a dragoon, using the flat side of the weapon to divert the attack. It would turn the jump into a flying shoulder tackle and have the side benefit of asking the question "what happens to a lance when it gets driven into the ground with the full weight of the user behind it?" that would have to be answered.
Whether or not that constitutes no-selling is another thing, but it's as-reasonable a defense as you're going to get against physics-defying flying pinpoint-precise rocket jumps fueled by inner-dragons-and-or-aether.