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+--- Thread: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales (/showthread.php?tid=9312)
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RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kieron Lohengrin - 07-24-2017
(07-24-2017, 10:18 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(07-24-2017, 05:31 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: I double pull in experts, and only die if the healer is dpsing instead of healing. If that happens then I single pull for the rest of the run. TBN into quietus into DA DP / DA AD spam is redonk strong when you have six or more mobs.
That being said, dps who don't aoe are worse and somehow even more common. Or dps who don't focus down summoners in kugane. Any self-respecting SAM will always have TP hovering at 100-200 with a torrent of gokens and kyutens.
I haven't actually tried tanking in the experts yet, but part of that is me being afraid the freebie AF3 won't cut it anymore now that people have geared up. I should try to give it a chance...
The bolded part makes me crazy. I've gotten used to having mark macros on all my roles' hotbars so I can mark them if the tank does when I'm healing, and to mark them when I'm the tank. It feels like people have forgotten that most of the summon abilities can be stunned. And if of the not-stunnable variety, I do expect people to focus them down one by one, as per some of the lv70 dungeons.
You can run roulette dailies once you hit 70 for free tomes, and every PVP Frontline run win or lose is still worth 50 tomes. That's how I was capped at 2000/2000 even before I finished the MSQ and unlocked the i310 vendors
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-24-2017
(07-24-2017, 10:18 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I haven't actually tried tanking in the experts yet, but part of that is me being afraid the freebie AF3 won't cut it anymore now that people have geared up. I should try to give it a chance...
Well, if people can't look at your gear and tone it down some (especially if you let them know)... that's more on them than you, I think. Worse come to worse, Ala Mhigo iLevel syncs... so you could run that a few times for some verity and the i200 dungeon gear.
... but yeah. Poor target prioritization gets me too. Even discounting Summoners, if the DPS is going all out on a different target than you're focusing on, they can rip it off you before you know it.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Yian Kutku - 07-30-2017
Actual good news for once: I was doing a Main Scenario Roulette, and zoned into Castrum Meridianum.
First thing I noticed was that about half the party were sprouts, including both Tanks and the other Healer. Second thing I noticed was that all of them were watching the opening cutscene.
When the mission proper started, everyone just kind of hung around awkwardly at the beginning, not moving forward. The non-sprouts did the jiggly "we're ready to go, Tanks please start moving, we don't want to be in front of you aggroing enemies" dance.
After about thirty seconds, I asked: "Everyone know what to do here?"
One of the Tanks said "Negative".
Since none of the other non-sprouts said a word in chat, I assumed I was going to be the one explaining the dungeon. So I did, starting with "pull as much as you feel comfortable with".
This turned out to be single pulls. Nobody complained. The Tanks were kind of squishy when they tried double-pulling; I checked their gear, and they were in the i90 AF sets, so they're at least competent enough to do Job quests. Probably just needed to work on cooldown rotation.
I called out where the disposal chute you had to go to after the first boss was. I explained how the enemies will drop explosives we have to plant on ceruleum pipes. I pointed out the cannons that most groups use to AoE down large pulls, and warned that they were kind of fragile, so don't bait enemy AoEs there. I explained the Livia boss fight.
Through it all, only one of the Tanks ever responded, but it was always appreciative and positive. (I'm pretty sure they weren't bots, because another of the sprouts helped another find the disposal chute in chat. Capitalization and complete sentences and all.)
Through it all, we waited for cutscenes. And when we got to Livia, I saw five Castrum Meridianum map achievements pop up.
We cleared easily, with only a single death (me; entirely my fault, since I got too greedy with Holy). Two sprouts (not including the positive Tank, who just went "grats" and left) thanked me. Got three commendations.
I just feel so happy that at least a few new players can experience the shitshow of CM in a positive way. I do feel bad that chances are Praetorium will not be as forgiving, if they get the usual speedrun group.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 07-31-2017
I think I quoted my Trial roulette today pretty succinctly in an LS:
[18:12][1]<Gogonji Gegenji> That feeling when you realize you need to do Caster LB on the tear in Chrysalis because your SAM melee DPS is running around trying to soak meteors like a tank.
I seriously watched the guy run PAST the tear and towards one of the falling meteors instead. I don't even know.
Also, got Hullbreaker NM for my 50/60 to lazy-level BLM. Got ANOTHER SAM, but this one decided to do a different tank tact and pull EVERYTHING on the island right before the last boss. Got the tank and himself killed, and we only got out of a full wipe because I kited everything around while the healer rezzed the tank and healed me a little with each pass while I kept aggro with Swiftcasted Flares until the tank had peeled off enough of the mob and killed it that he wouldn't just drop dead again.
Is it Idiot SAM Night or something?
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Technic164 - 08-01-2017
I feel so awful. I've been trying to get a grasp of how to tank, To shake things up seeing as I've mained DPS my entire life in every MMO I've ever played. Wanted to run a Level Roulette to see how far it would take me from 28 in one go.
Get Halatali. I IMMEDIATELY let the party I got know, that I am new to tanking, and I am apologizing in advance, I get a 'ur good' and 'kay', so I figured they are okay with it, and just want an easy roulette.
Queue shenanigans.
I struggled to maintain aggro on just about every pull. I don't know if I just don't have the rotations down, or if it was because I was undergeared or proportionally that much weaker than the rest of them [who were all likely 60+ outside of the dungeon], a WHM, PUG and RDM.
Then I suddenly have a fit of unstable internet service, get disconnected after the second boss, and disconnected when the final boss was at 7%.
Needless to say, I feel like I was most certainly one of the worst tanks they've seen in a long time, and I want to apologize to them. Though I am unsure if they would ever see this. Ugh.. I didn't think it'd be THIS hard. I knew Tanking was not a cake walk, but.. Fudge. I need to get better.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-01-2017
(08-01-2017, 04:53 AM)Technic164 Wrote: I feel so awful. I've been trying to get a grasp of how to tank, To shake things up seeing as I've mained DPS my entire life in every MMO I've ever played. Wanted to run a Level Roulette to see how far it would take me from 28 in one go.
Get Halatali. I IMMEDIATELY let the party I got know, that I am new to tanking, and I am apologizing in advance, I get a 'ur good' and 'kay', so I figured they are okay with it, and just want an easy roulette.
Queue shenanigans.
I struggled to maintain aggro on just about every pull. I don't know if I just don't have the rotations down, or if it was because I was undergeared or proportionally that much weaker than the rest of them [who were all likely 60+ outside of the dungeon], a WHM, PUG and RDM.
Then I suddenly have a fit of unstable internet service, get disconnected after the second boss, and disconnected when the final boss was at 7%.
Needless to say, I feel like I was most certainly one of the worst tanks they've seen in a long time, and I want to apologize to them. Though I am unsure if they would ever see this. Ugh.. I didn't think it'd be THIS hard. I knew Tanking was not a cake walk, but.. Fudge. I need to get better.
Which class/job were you playing as? Halatali can be kinda difficult for classes because their stat balance isn't as role-heavy as jobs are. Like DPS, tanking rotations can change a bit depending on level and skills available. Certain skills, like provoke/ultimatum are good to recover enmity, but don't actually generate any. Enmity is basically a number in the game, where certain skills get adjusted. ...so provoke and ultimatum literally just give you current enmity + 1. ...which doesn't help if anyone hits that mob again before you can get another skill off.
If you aren't too familiar with tanking, I'd definitely recommend doing the Novice Hall courses. (Aside from getting the gear because that ring is amazing and good till like lv40, even if the exp bonus stops at 30). I'm sure a few of us here could give some pointers depending on what you're playing as.
For some generic stuff, the enmity bars in your party list are amazing. (And I often hear people had no idea that they were even there). Marking mobs to focus can help, assuming your DPS follow them. ...and the healer isn't cure/medica-bombing you, since that can easily rip enmity off a struggling tank.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Charity322 - 08-01-2017
I'm going to be one of those people. Enmity bars in your party list?
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Aaron - 08-01-2017
(08-01-2017, 05:55 AM)Charity322 Wrote: I'm going to be one of those people. Enmity bars in your party list?It's a vertical bar to the left of each party member that is red for the person with the most aggro or yellow and is also numbered 1-8 depending on the party size. The lower the number, the more aggro you generated. Tanks should normally have #1 spot, OT can have 2-7 but usually should stay at #2 in case main tank dies.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Saravahn - 08-01-2017
As a person who has mained tanking classes across all MMOs all the years I've played them, I'd say don't sweat losing aggro in those lower level dungeons, especially if it's your first time ever touching a tank. As Unnamed said, it kind of depends on what tank you were playing for one.
In my opinion, GLA/PLD has it the worst in the lower level dungeons until shield oath and rage of halone come along. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold threat, but it certainly can be a challenge, especially to someone new to the whole thing. To my knowledge, they still haven't fixed the bug where flash doesn't start giving the correct amount of threat unless the mob is damaged by the tank first. They've upped the amount of threat it generates, but haven't fixed that bug yet, to my knowledge.
MRD/WAR is next in that at least overpower does damage as well as increases enmity. They've lost flash with the release of SB so it can be a bit trickier now, but I still feel like they're a little easier to hold threat with in the lower dungeons. Again, Defiance(tank stance) is a great boon once you get it.
DRK is, in my opinion, by far the easiest to hold threat. Unleash is a full circle aoe (like flash) that also does damage (like overpower)while having an enmity multiplier on it. It's fairly spammable, even at a lower level and really makes tanking a snap. Naturally, once you aren't synced and actually have Grit (the tank stance) it's that much easier again.
They all suffer from single target threat issues until they get their third part of the combo. Rage of Halone for GLA/PLD, Butcher's Block for MRD/WAR, and Power Slash for DRK.
Just keep trying and you'll get the hang of it. Like Unnamed said, head to the hall of the novice if you haven't already... not so much for the training (it's quite lacking for tanks, imo) but for the gear and especially that ring. Once you get your tank stance for whatever class/job you're playing, it'll be much easier. Still not mindless, of course, but leaps and bounds easier.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Aaron - 08-01-2017
If you're spamming Unleash over 30 though like no tomorrow your mp management is gonna be awful.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 08-01-2017
(08-01-2017, 08:03 AM)Cvahn Wrote: In my opinion, GLA/PLD has it the worst in the lower level dungeons until shield oath and rage of halone come along. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold threat, but it certainly can be a challenge, especially to someone new to the whole thing. To my knowledge, they still haven't fixed the bug where flash doesn't start giving the correct amount of threat unless the mob is damaged by the tank first. They've upped the amount of threat it generates, but haven't fixed that bug yet, to my knowledge.
I was unaware such a bug existed...
But anyway, my two cents on low-level dungeon tanking as PLD is to basically do your MP combo with Flash as your "finisher" on group pulls. That way you can keep spamming it and keep from running out of MP. You won't do great damage, of course, but as long as the enemies are beating on you and not your DPS/healer, they should be able to handle that part.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Pip - 08-01-2017
(07-31-2017, 06:15 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Is it Idiot SAM Night or something?
I think "I'm gonna tank like daddy!" SAM may be a trend in the player base. I usually run healer in roulettes, and more often than not (more often than DRG and BRD even!) if one of the DPS is going to need extra healing, it's the SAM. Usually it's because the SAM is standing on top of the tank soaking up all the big frontal hits and will not move to the rear of the boss like a sane person. Do they have directional attacks that make them think they need to be there?
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Aaron - 08-01-2017
(08-01-2017, 08:50 AM)Pip Wrote:Its the fact that they don't have directionals that make them stand anywhere I believe.(07-31-2017, 06:15 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Is it Idiot SAM Night or something?
I think "I'm gonna tank like daddy!" SAM may be a trend in the player base. I usually run healer in roulettes, and more often than not (more often than DRG and BRD even!) if one of the DPS is going to need extra healing, it's the SAM. Usually it's because the SAM is standing on top of the tank soaking up all the big frontal hits and will not move to the rear of the boss like a sane person. Do they have directional attacks that make them think they need to be there?
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 08-01-2017
(08-01-2017, 08:50 AM)Pip Wrote:(07-31-2017, 06:15 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Is it Idiot SAM Night or something?
I think "I'm gonna tank like daddy!" SAM may be a trend in the player base. I usually run healer in roulettes, and more often than not (more often than DRG and BRD even!) if one of the DPS is going to need extra healing, it's the SAM. Usually it's because the SAM is standing on top of the tank soaking up all the big frontal hits and will not move to the rear of the boss like a sane person. Do they have directional attacks that make them think they need to be there?
As someone who is now currently maining and enjoying SAM... they have no directionals, no.
What they DO have is Third Eye, which you can activate just before you take damage and reduce it a bit. It also has a couple follow-up abilities that activate once you'd soaked a hit, but they're super later in the levels: Merciful Eyes (58) is a small potency self-heal and - what you'd really be using it for - Hissatsu: Seigan (66), which is a 200 potency attack you can throw out if you have the Kenki energy for it.
And, apparently, it's a belief for some SAMs that to maximize their leet deeps they need to be activating Seigan as often as possible. So they stand in stuff they really don't need to be standing in to eke out that extra bit of damage. Which, frankly? I find pointless and more likely than not going to be having you short on Kenki for the important things - like your evasive moves or boosting your Midare damage.
What I do with Third Eye-Seigan is use it for those unavoidable AoE attacks like... Dimensional Whatever that's used by all the bosses in the Omega raid, for example. There's no need to be standing in unnecessary extra stuff, especially since for 10 Kenki more (aka, at max level, two more combo hits) you can do a 300 potency attack (Hissatsu: Shinten) that doesn't require you to eat an attack.
It should be noted, of course, that this is all under the belief that you have Seigan to begin with. In Crystalis or Hullbreaker NM (or even HM)? You don't have it, so there's no reason to try being a mini-tank. At all.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Valence - 08-01-2017
Seigan is a DPS gain over Shinten (200 potency for 15 kenki versus 300 potency for 25 kenki). It's a no brainer to use Seigan over Shinten whenever you can.
But that doesn't mean standing in shit all the time...
Also, from what I gather a 3 sen Hagakure is always more potency than a Kaiten boosted Midare.