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+--- Thread: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales (/showthread.php?tid=9312)
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RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Ilwe'ran - 12-31-2014
It's been long I would like to talk about those picking on others for their language and culture.
It's not because you're english native speaker that the whole world is like you.
It's not because you're english native speaker that we all write and speak as you do.
It's not because you're english native speaker that you should take any opportunity to jeer those who aren't.
You have to be TOLERANT over those who aren't english native and will spend their whole life learning YOUR language.
You have to UNDERSTAND that when a non native write a sentence, he doesn't check 150 times the vocabulary, the grammar or the structure of the sentence before pressing enter.
You have to ACCEPT that due to the learning process and different culture what comes out for you to be rude can be totaly different for the non native who just talked.
Yes, I'm looking at you who tells me that I'm aggressive / rude / whatever because my sentence isn't wrote as YOU would have write it yourself. Guess what ? Teachers aren't teaching people about irony and aggressivity, they only teach basic way to communicate and we don't always get what it implies for you.
I'm also looking at you who uses the fact I'm not native as an argument to blurt out that everything I can say is sh*t. If you're not doing your job properly in a dungeon and makes the party wiping, I won't stop myself to tell it to you. The fact my english isn't perfect doesn't mean that I'm wrong nor justify your attitude toward me.
Just f*ck off. I'm not native, at least I try to communicate, yelling at me / blaming me / mocking me isn't trying to communicate. It's only being an a*se.
The day you'll begin to speak another language than your native one as best as we do learn and speak english, we'll talk again about all this. Maybe that day you'll notice that you were an a*se to pick on me or on my friend 'cause our english isn't perfect.
Yes dude, it's freaking easy to mock others, but at least we TRY. Now tell me which one is rude and which one is useless again ?
PS : A lot of Caps Lock and all. I think this makes me angry since long D:
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Nebbs - 12-31-2014
@Ilwe'ran ... sorry
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Melodia - 12-31-2014
*Huggles Ilwe'ran*
As an American with a Japanese spouse, a child with a speech impediment, and dozens of friends in Japan and Europe, I completely get your post and that crap annoys me too.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Steel Wolf - 12-31-2014
(12-31-2014, 08:19 AM)Ilweran Wrote: <a lot of excellently put and understandable anger>
If ever there was a legitimate and truly worthy gripe in this Vent Tent...this is it. I echo Nebbs in apologizing on behalf of my fellow native speakers for whomever was being a stratospheric cockbag.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-31-2014
(12-31-2014, 08:19 AM)Ilwe Wrote: The day you'll begin to speak another language than your native one as best as we do learn and speak english, we'll talk again about all this. Maybe that day you'll notice that you were an a*se to pick on me or on my friend 'cause our english isn't perfect.
Yes dude, it's freaking easy to mock others, but at least we TRY. Now tell me which one is rude and which one is useless again ?
What's even better? According to the military categorization of language by difficulty, English is the ONLY Category V. Chinese and Japanese and a few others are Category IV, and the Romance languages are down at... Category II since they all follow a simple and understandable conjugation structure that's more or less interchangeable between them.
But yeah. Thanks to all the rules that aren't ("i before e except after c", anyone?) and special cases and such, English is rated the hardest language to learn. Learning that makes me all the more impressed with those who seek to learn to speak it. And this is from someone who at some point learned (and subsequently forgotten due to lack of use) bits of French, Spanish, Latin, and Arabic.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kage - 12-31-2014
Oh Ilwe T_T
*hugs*
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Warren Castille - 12-31-2014
Man. All my world first problems just got blown out by actual villainy and ignorance.
If it helps any, Ilwe, those people are douches and can generally be ignored. It might cut deep when folks say ignorant things, but that's not how everyone (or anyone worth interacting with) feels.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Ilwe'ran - 12-31-2014
(12-31-2014, 08:46 AM)Gegenji Wrote: What's even better? According to the military categorization of language by difficulty, English is the ONLY Category V. Chinese and Japanese and a few others are Category IV, and the Romance languages are down at... Category II since they all follow a simple and understandable conjugation structure that's more or less interchangeable between them.
But yeah. Thanks to all the rules that aren't ("i before e except after c", anyone?) and special cases and such, English is rated the hardest language to learn. Learning that makes me all the more impressed with those who seek to learn to speak it. And this is from someone who at some point learned (and subsequently forgotten due to lack of use) bits of French, Spanish, Latin, and Arabic.
Military categorization seems to be biaised as scaling the difficulty "when you're english native speaker". Difficulty only depends on what is your native language.
For example :
- If you're japanese native, learning chinese might be confusing at first but would be easier for you than learning french or english 'cause it's obviously really different from what is your native language.
- If you're french native, learning latine languages such as italian or spanish is easier as the sentence structure and the words are similar. Germanic forms and (of course) languages using different sort of structures and letters such as arabic or japanese / chinese language are more complicated. English is, for us french, fairly easy as it comes with more simple rules for conjugation and grammar (example : "to go" in english vs "aller" in french, it's the same verb, and it's not a complicated one in french)
- If you're english native. Oh well, can't help than to think that the most complicated for english native is to have a system motivating the young to learn another language. People often told me that language is an option in many schools in USA which surprised me.
As a result, I found that most of intolerant a*ses are those who never learned another language (and look like there are a lot of those out there). Those who did and actually used their knowledge and so, faced the same situation as us are usually nice and willing to help.
Also,
This is a message from a RPer to fellow RPer.
Please. PLEASE !!! When you're facing someone who isn't native (or you suspect isn't) and suddenly one of their sentence comes totally off / not being in phase of the RP / weird and will have some consequences on your reactions (and sometimes HEAVY consequences).
CHECK OOC WHAT THAT PERSON MEANS, THIS MIGHT BE A TRANSLATION FAIL
We can totally fail in RP too.
We can totally fail to catch the meaning of a sentence and blurp out weird answer.
We can be overly surprised by the reaction of your char because our sentence is normal for us and WTF for you.
We can totally back off rping in english as it's HARD and sometimes people aren't tolerant and expecting perfection.
It is often hard for us to read accents and while we can be naturaly slow answering (as checking meaning / fetching vocabulary / double checking answer) it can become even worse when we understand half of the sentence.
So just please. Please, please, please. I know it's easy to forget while immersed. But don't overreact. Ask. Communicate. Ask twice if necessary. Even three times. Just make sure before doing something that will change the relation between your char and another.
If you feel that something is wrong, you might be right !!!
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Drifter - 12-31-2014
@Ilwe: your last few posts should be in a thread of their own and stickied so everyone can see it.
Again I apologize on behalf of native english speakers. And I thank you for making the effort to learn our language, not many of us would do the same (unfortunately)
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Ilwe'ran - 12-31-2014
Also, I would like to add this which is probably the most terrifyingly annoying thing for me (and still about RP).
Trust a non native when he suddenly reacts ooc as surprised by your IC answer and - after checking - is all "yeah, looks like I f*cked up my answer, I wanted to say that ... " . It's already hard to admit that we failed to understand / write a sentence in english, it's harder when people don't trust us and persist in what they think we wanted to say.
We're not asking to retcon. We're correcting some mistakes due to the language.
So many time I did put Ilwe in some stupid situation just because I didn't checked twice if what I said was normal / understandable. That lead my char to be in bad relationship with others extremely stupidly and those people weren't always tolerant enough to understand and accept it.
That's something really vicious and insidious that can deeply hurt over time.
And sorry I'll try to not monopolize that topic, language & culture problem is something I have to face since years and I see a lot of my friend struggling with it as well. Somehow today I just needed to share my feelings around this =x .
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-31-2014
It's fine, it's fine. Language difficulties is a perfectly valid issue to bring up. Especially in an MMO, where you can be playing with people of all sorts.
And really, messing up a sentence or typoing or misunderstanding what someone else said happens often enough between two people who speak the same native language! Heck, I was in an RP yesterday and I misunderstood some vials being something to use AGAINST poison (i.e. antidotes) AS poison.
Not to mention I've flubbed sentences often enough, and have seen it happen with others. At worst, I'll just make a joke about the typo or what have you. My usual response is to just let it slide or seek/provide some clarification if there's some confusion.
RP is about communication and joint story-telling after all. If you're not willing to make simple concessions as "Oh, you actually meant to have your character say that instead of this?" then... there's certainly going to be problems. Seriously, it's fixing a line or two of dialogue, not a major retcon of a character.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Kage - 12-31-2014
*deep snugz*
Yes, not speaking the same language or not quite meeting the same expectations in language... it's hard. You don't want to say "oops sorry could you try to say/type that again" because you worry you might offend them or are embarrassed but it's worse if you just keep going on not being 100% on the same page.
BUT BE RESPECTFUL AND ACCEPT THAT AND WORK TOWARDS GETTING ON THE SAME PAGE. No matter if English is second language or native! Yes native speakers, you have to make some effort too and it's not just "hurm I tried to make sense of it.."
It is also, "I tried making sense... I spoke with them to try and see if we understand each other, because I want to be clear."
I was so mad when one of the most annoying people in my FC (honestly I don't know why leadership doesn't do something. People say they've blacklisted him but some say have grudge etc) ranted about a Tank in like... Haukke or Toto-Rak.
"This paladin only does Rage of halone! Augh bad player!"
"So, why not try to inform that the tank would be better off doing the combo?"
"They're French. So ugh."
".... Autotranslate:Fast Blade puis Autotranslate:Savage Blade puis Autotranslate:Rage of Halone Autotranslate
lease. Autotranslate:Thank you ? Granted, I did a google translate of "then" but at least I tried.""Whatever, it's not like they're in Balmung. They're not having issues with hate either so whatever."
"Inb4 Balmung. Also, then why the fuck are you ranting if there's no issues?"
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Nebbs - 12-31-2014
@Ilwe'ran,Â
As the one who mostly gets Ilwe wrong most of the time and maybe reacts and causes lots of grief. Â I'd just like to add this is not just a receptive thing but also a sending thing. You don't know you misread, you respond incorrectly and so the vicious cycle starts.
I don't think it is an intentional thing just many of us who have one language (English) and maybe have other language issues, and socialisation and communication issues, just don't do well at this aspect.
All I (we) can do is try and say it was not intentional.
Sorry
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Gegenji - 12-31-2014
(12-31-2014, 10:23 AM)Kage Wrote: "Inb4 Balmung. Also, then why the fuck are you ranting if there's no issues?"
Some people just like to complain. I know I enjoy it from time to time, but I try not to be too serious about it.
RE: The Vent Tent - Poor PuGs and Other Terrible Tales - Steel Wolf - 01-01-2015
Not to take away from I'lwe's excellent posts and their message...but I just need a quick vent moment.
Couple of days ago during myself and Z-Kitty's Random Dungeon Adventure Times, we were PUG'd with someone who has to be the most hyper of Ninja. Total lack of respect for the pace I was setting. I was barely edging him out in threat due to the speed of his rotations.
On the plus side, it's shown me how NOT to play Ninja in group actions once I get the class. So, y'know...silver lining and all that. :3