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In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Printable Version

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In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Nyagi Yhistarok - 02-01-2015

Sooooo...

This might cause a shitstorm buuuuuuut...

This is so special snowflakey and lorebreaking.

Are you roleplaying as one of the few Warriors of Light that fought in the Battle of Carteneau and were subsequently sent five years into the future by Louisoix, after fighting in 1.0 with the man himself? Are you rping off that you and seven others were tempered by Hydaelyn herself, and everyone there has the echo?

As far as the lore goes, the primals were summoned in the past, and yes, heroes of eld fought against the primals. But several times throughout even 2.0's dialogue, it describes how even an army struggled to defeat those summonings.

In the recent history of 2.0, playing as the protag of the main scenario, you are playing as either a Warrior of Light from 1.0 or as a reborn Warrior of Light that was tempered by Hydaelyn upon first entering the realm of Eorzea. This does not mean that every common hero in the game is potentially that said hero, and playing off as if you were like the main protag of an mmo's story is super special snowflakey, powergaming, and distasteful.

Anyways, in 2.0, this hero of the main scenario while playing the game FFXIV: A Realm Reborn, you are soon working with the Scions who's job is to prevent the return of the primal threat, some of those threats only quelled but five years ago (i.e. The Band of Heroes and the defeat of Leviathan.) This time, the Ascians are mettling with their supremely powerful evil magicks and with each summoning of the primals, they are a much much stronger incarnation to the last, of which there has only been three summonings of the Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda.

It is said through each encounter with the primals that an army would not be able to kill these particular summonings, hence why the hero of the main scenario has to check in with each Grand company's OIC and initiate the encounter with the threat. In fact, Garuda's summoning, even the first one, she has a powerful vortex barrier that is nigh impossible to breach, save that the main hero meets up with another important character: Cid, to strap on a massive (and potentially toxic) heap of corrupted crystal, which required an absurd amount of effort to obtain, too much to be fair for one person in a roleplay setting to have obtained without going mad from it's radiation, of which, the main scenario hero is probably only able to obtain, because the main protag of any story is usually superpowered and special snowflakey as shit, because he/she is the only one, and all that fluff. 

So are you really saying you come to match the power of a main plot's hero of an mmo? If so, that is powergame-y, godmoding, and super distasteful. We might as well say there is no threat if everyone is walking around with the power to curb-stomp a god -- look up the "Worf Effect", seriously.

Anyways, staying on topic, the point is, only a chosen few that were tempered by Hydaelyn, the crystal god of pretty much everything that ever exists in the universe ever, and blessed with the echo to have ungodly amounts of power, could defeat these summonings. It's not like they're constantly being summoned on a daily basis. Primals are a rare and powerful summoning from the outcry of their attributing race of worshipers. I'd like to think with the actions the hero can take, what with 2.0's daily beast tribe quests, the sane beast tribe members are progressively becoming more peaceful with the more advanced races of Eorzea, all the while, Grand companies of each region, are constantly putting the hurt on the tempered tribes, their numbers slowly draining. Eventually that would mean less of those tribes crying out to their god and there would be less crying out to their deity to come and save them, because the majority would be working together with the other races as time continues.

I'm a bit scatter brained so forgive my rant but I'll continue because this [redacted] needs to stop. Our characters don't have to be capable of great feats to do great things. It is by recognizing our faults and working together with others that we can accomplish amazing things, of which we can gloat about in the taverns and bars just as well as if we were crazy super powerful. Where is the threat of the land though if everyone is special awesome? And then does that not beg the question, "If everyone is special? Is anyone special?" it really just is distasteful and I'd say lazy to roleplay as a powerful character, instead of what roleplay should be, and that's working with each other to perform great things together.

Still, lore breaking here, the primals were not summoned more than three times so far. The first, was because it's been like five years or longer since the last summoning and the beast tribes were feeling oppressed by the main races of Eorzea. It always runs the trend that the beast tribes were doing only what they had, to survive. The second summonings? The world has had an influx of aether and crystals, plus the hero of the main scenario gave their last primal summoning a thrashing, so they redoubled their efforts to gather enough crystals and summon a stronger version of their god. When those summonings (in game they are called HM, or Hard Modes, for anyone unsure.) were defeated, so too in game did it show that the spirit of the tempered tribespeople of each beast tribe, so too was defeated. They were on the retreat, and the daily beast tribe quests are an in game representation of the relationship building the hero initiated, which sure, you could roleplay off tastefully that you went to assist the Sylphs or made an assault on a small camp of tempered Amalj'aa, working with the good ones that wear those awesome blue bandanas and sashes (because Donatello is totes the rightful leader, no mater how much a fit Raphael throws).

The third summoning, the EX or Extreme trials, as represented in game to reflect the lore, is a direct Ascian intervention. They used rituals involving the bones of beast tribes to summon an ever deadlier version of the Primals. This was literally twisting and forcing a summon, none to unlike the Coils story line, where Bahamut was forced to be summoned (of which I speculate presently that may also be why he's so damn strong, because he was forced to remain summoned) and yeah, so these EX summonings were super powerful because of the unnatural nature of their calling back from the aetherial plane.

In the quest "Gale Force Warning" Vorsaile spoke of how in the midst of his troops constructing a new watchspire to observe the actions of the local beast tribes, this particular summoning of Garuda was 'absolute'. With a mere flick of her talon, it destroyed the half-built structure and sent several trained men flying as if they were rag-dolls. That kind of strength is absurd and even the hero blessed with Hydaelyn's power, probably took even that a fair stretch of the mind to defeat. Same goes with the other two, they were literally aetheric abominations at this level of power. Are you saying you contended with that kind of strength? --Also, it says in the quest text of Gale Force Warning that they were erecting a tower to observe the movements of the Ixali, clearly as a result of the second summoning.

Let's rewind a bit, the beast tribes summoned their god the first time in 2.0's history, the hero came and defeated it. The Grand companies underestimated the response time of the beast tribes, probably getting drunk off mead in celebration of the primal's defeat, that it was too late before anyone gave credit that the beast tribes could collect a massive store of crystals and strike back harder with the HM summon of their deity. Like think of it this way, you get knocked down, yeah? Then while you're foe is gloating over you, you get angry and come back with a harder strike. That's what the beast tribes did. They of course were fighting against the Mike Tyson of heroes and got once again knocked down, but it's the same as any defeat. If willing, you're gonna try to get up again and you're gonna try to hit harder than the last time.

That's why the companies started commissioning the construction of watchspires and new posts on beast tribe lands, so they could observe the movements of the tempered beast tribes, and prevent them from collecting another large stinkin' pile of crystal and summon their god back.

The reason the EX primals exist, aside from the game aspect where our iLvl is so high we needed stronger foes to fight, is that the Ascians were causing an abnormal summon to occur.

Look, for sake of argument, let's turn towards content that's recently been released. In 2.5 patch release, the main scenarios hero and his friends (which is to be assumed the other few warriors of light.) are able to complete the raid arc and defeat the Cloud of Darkness, a supremely powerful foe, and make it back from her realm, stopping a possible calamity from happening again with Scyrus Tower. That whole entire expedition clearly could not have been accomplished more than once, because there were too many unimaginably important characters that showed up in that story arc and only the one hero, the main player, could have been in that situation. The weekly quest there is to relive those events in your memories and you give those stored memories to the spirit of a powerful allagan sorcerer that is possessing a random miqo'te chick (go figure). Think on the quest, The Ultimate Ballad, you are recounting your encounter with the Ultimate weapon, but the bard is only singing a song, albeit, the way he's 'singing' the song, makes for the battle to appear to have been much harder and harrowing for the hero to have accomplished, thus in game perspective, a HM version of The Ultima Weapon is available to challenge mid-ilvl players.

In 2.4, the hero of the story discovered after during the encounter with Shiva that those tempered by Hydaelyn (as only those tempered by her could know that Hear, Feel, Think... stuff.) that even a mortal could take on the power and form of a god (I'm gonna puke if we one day are all super saians and become primals in the game from what SE is hinting at here) but yes, it showed that even a mortal with enough resolve, could take on the power and form of a primal. But that's sooooo distasteful and special snowflakey and not right if roleplayers are saying their character is capable of matching that kind of power, or turning into a primal (bleck).

I'm sorry but does anyone bother to read the lore anymore? Are we all just a bunch of super heroes that also get stuck on trivial things like stubbing a toe, or not getting over a love-crush? I reserve that it should never be taken ICly that what you do and can repeat in game is possible from a lore-following perspective. You are not the hero, you are not the main protag, you are average joe. You are at best, Rauban, and all he can do is warcry to an empty conference hall ("Guwaaaaaarrr!!!") and speak to monetarists that aren't even in the same room as him. Like, you have to think of it this way, those three heroes that made it back from Tam-tara deepcroft, after failing in their expedition and losing a friend, that is all possible. That all feels real, even the part where the scorned woman turns to utter darkness in her crazed state. That is kind of an extreme of it, proves why you should definitely never mess with the Void -ever!-, but no one ever in the game was depicted as "Hey, I'm bored. Let's go smash us a primal!" That just makes you ICly a bunch of hacks and chasing after something that was already dead because of the actions of the main player character of the game.

I'm all for super awesome adventures and doing amazing things, but if it breaks lore, it detracts from that sense of immersion and then we're all left with just a pale picture. Where is the struggle to live in that world? Why isn't Eorzea's heroes storming the gates of every Castrum the Garleans have raised in our lands? Why are dragons still a threat to Ishgard, but not summoned Gods and the like. Why is Garlemald starting to prepare for another invasion of Eorzea if the primal threat still exists? There is a mode of progression in the world and the dragons are moving because the it's high-time the Ishgardians answer for their father's sins, The nation of Garlemald originally stopped their invasion of Eorzea, further delayed because of the Black Wolf and him trying to harness the power of the primals, but now what's stopping them? Nothing is actually preventing them from sweeping across the land because the primal threat has been quelled. What'll probably push back that from happening too soon and being a cluster for the game developers is that the dragons will pour in as they lay siege to the gates of Ishgard's capitol, and that'll probably spook a smart person from invading until that problem has resolved itself. I wouldn't be surprised if the game devs at SE make a trope where it was the hero that was actually fixing everything that was preventing the Garleans from invading, and the leader will be like, "My thanks for taking care of our... problems." or something predictable like that.

Anyways, rant done. I just can't stand how no one respects the lore and how there are far too many people that act like their super heroes and main protagonists. It is better to struggle and work with others than to have some mighty power you probably didn't earn. It's far more impressive and rewarding when we are working to make the world feel real, not be as a kid on an anthill with a magnifying glass, burning anything we deem needs to die.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-01-2015

I'll try to keep my response short. 

The primals have been summoned more than 3 times.

They're not the Warriors of Light, nor do they ever intend to be.

SE directly stated normal people can defeat primals. ...just....not as 8 individuals.

IIRC, I believe their method is an anti-tempering device, although I've seen people be tempered in RP before. Sure, it's minorly lore-breaking, but not the first time. I've seen other people used deaspected crystals as an anti-tempering method as well, assuming the crystals would soak up the energy or something.

--

More importantly, calm down. Nobody is asking you to RP it. You don't have to accept it. If someone wants to RP with a lore-acceptable workaround for fighting a primal, let them. It's not going to cause another Calamity.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Nero - 02-01-2015

There is no possible way this thread will end up full of people flaming each other and arguments over the definition of RP.

None at all.

This is the part where Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start The Fire" starts playing.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Aysun - 02-01-2015

While I'm of the opinion that normal people should not be fighting primals due to tempering risk (and that there's no way to avoid it other than the Echo - the Company of Heroes who defeated Titan without the Echo lost a lot of people to tempering iirc) - this is flat out silly.

No one is forcing you to acknowledge it or RP it, so there's really no reason to get all huffy. I learned that awhile back myself, which is why I've simply stopped telling people my opinions on lore. I RP what I want to RP and that's all! People will RP what and how they want, people will all have different interpretations of the lore, and most of all, you have that same right. So take your interpretations and make your own story! That's what everyone is doing.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - V'aleera - 02-01-2015

If Gilgamesh can summon a primal while shopping for some crystals to light a cooking fire and without even trying, the beast tribes can summon weaker versions of their primals as much as they want.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Nyagi Yhistarok - 02-01-2015

The thing is that the primals have been summoned in the past, and several times, sure. But as of the events of 2.0, the primals have been summoned three times and the last one was direct influence of the Ascians. Not even an army can defeat these summonings.

This is the end of an age in game, the Ascians are bringing about their 'rejoining' and pouring their own efforts into it, now more than ever. I'm saying since the events of 2.0, lore wise, it is impossible that the summons have happened past the three counts that the scions and the main protag have addressed.

--also, Gilgamesh is comedy fodder. It shouldn't be taken terribly serious. That or I mean, jebuss... it's Gilgamesh for cryin' out loud xD

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Unnamed Mercenary - 02-01-2015

(02-01-2015, 10:53 PM)Nyagi Yhistarok Wrote: The thing is that the primals have been summoned in the past, and several times, sure. But as of the events of 2.0, the primals have been summoned three times and the last one was direct influence of the Ascians. Not even an army can defeat these summonings.

This is the end of an age in game, the Ascians are bringing about their 'rejoining' and pouring their own efforts into it, now more than ever. I'm saying since the events of 2.0, lore wise, it is impossible that the summons have happened past the three counts that the scions and the main protag have addressed.

Take a breather. Nobody is telling you have to accept it.

If I decided I wanted to RP in a style like .Hack or Log Horizon, where I'm a person stuck in a game, am I gonna get yelled at for it? Differences in RP style are perfectly fine. Everyone has their own personal canon, and the lore leaves plenty of room for interpretation. Just because we aren't shown the primals being summoned more than three times max, it doesn't mean it couldn't still be happening.

Chill.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Aysun - 02-01-2015

I'm pretty sure the MSQ leaves open how many times the Primals have been summoned. They leave it vague. It's completely possible that they're still being summoned outside the MSQ-bubble.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Cato - 02-01-2015

I've yet to see it done well and I tend to avoid role-players who openly have their characters standing toe-to-toe with named antagonists irregardless of the poor excuse of them being summoned more than once.

You can play a powerful character who is interesting and compelling without being the hero of the hour. It's usually just needless fan-wank awkwardly inserted to thrust someone's self-insert far above everybody else. Worse yet it doesn't usually stop there - there's often other major liberties taken with such characters to the point where they're effectively just a walking parody.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Aysun - 02-01-2015

(02-01-2015, 11:00 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: You can play a powerful character who is interesting and compelling without being the hero of the hour. It's usually just needless fan-wank awkwardly inserted to thrust someone's self-insert far above everybody else. Worse yet it doesn't usually stop there - there's often other major liberties taken with such characters to the point where they're effectively just a walking parody.

You can also play a character who is interesting and compelling, is not the hero, but has the Echo, as an adventurer.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Blue - 02-01-2015

Hello, as a person that roleplays the main scenario, I think I can point out at a couple things.

First and foremost, there were no "few" Warriors of Light. There were so many adventurers at the battle of Cartenau, some people's client would just crash. People had to flee the zone and teleport in Ul'hah to escape that madness, and SE acknowledged them enough to send imperials there too in the event.

Second, there isn't just one person who got Hydaelyn's call. In fact...

[Image: 54cee8c522c39258738ac29a.jpg]
[Image: 54cee8d622c39258738ac2b8.jpg]
[Image: 54cee8e122c39258738ac2c1.jpg]
[Image: 54cee8f422c39258738ac2c4.jpg]

My group RPs anyone willing to make such claim to have received Hydaelyn's call, and if someone new joins us, by all means, they can have received that Call too. They just were one among all those dots in the sky! They also can be Scions just like us. Minfilia simply had sent us on different tasks and we didn't meet until now!

It's perfectly okay and possible to RP there to be other Warriors of Light.

And last but not least, Primals return over and over, so it's also legit to claim to have fought them in different instances as someone else.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Hyakki - 02-01-2015

Seiko's reaction is to smile, nod and give them a "Good for you!". Of course, she really thinks they're crazy for making such outlandish claims.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Nyagi Yhistarok - 02-01-2015

(02-01-2015, 10:57 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(02-01-2015, 10:53 PM)Nyagi Yhistarok Wrote: The thing is that the primals have been summoned in the past, and several times, sure. But as of the events of 2.0, the primals have been summoned three times and the last one was direct influence of the Ascians. Not even an army can defeat these summonings.

This is the end of an age in game, the Ascians are bringing about their 'rejoining' and pouring their own efforts into it, now more than ever. I'm saying since the events of 2.0, lore wise, it is impossible that the summons have happened past the three counts that the scions and the main protag have addressed.

Take a breather. Nobody is telling you have to accept it.

If I decided I wanted to RP in a style like .Hack or Log Horizon, where I'm a person stuck in a game, am I gonna get yelled at for it? Differences in RP style are perfectly fine. Everyone has their own personal canon, and the lore leaves plenty of room for interpretation. Just because we aren't shown the primals being summoned more than three times max, it doesn't mean it couldn't still be happening.

Chill.
How can you ask me to chill when the temperature is already -273.15 Celsius x3

I'm not going so far as to dictate how people should roleplay if it's kept private, but really my rant comes from seeing people bring it to the open world as if wackin' primals is like going to the gladiator games in rome.

It's just ICly absurd. It doesn't make the immersion any better, it does the opposite.

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - Aysun - 02-01-2015

I think that the events in question aren't advertised like a gladiator fight would be ICly, only OOCly to get people to join...

RE: In response to people taking Primal fights ICly... - V'aleera - 02-01-2015

(02-01-2015, 10:53 PM)Nyagi Yhistarok Wrote: --also, Gilgamesh is comedy fodder. It shouldn't be taken terribly serious. That or I mean, jebuss... it's Gilgamesh for cryin' out loud xD
Gilgamesh is canon comedy fodder; the Hildibrand questlines are firmly established lore of the setting.

Some people don't agree with SE's decision on that, but that decision has been made. Choosing to ignore Gilgamesh would be like choosing to ignore the massive Ul'dah loredump we got from the rest of the Hildibrand quests.