(04-01-2014, 06:56 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:(04-01-2014, 05:22 PM)Ignacius Wrote: *words about an awesome concept*
Hey, that sounds totally awesome. I would honestly love something like that, a sort of evolution of TERA, GW2 and Wildstar, the "logical progression" of action-based, active combat MMOs. Though, to be honest, I'd prefer if it had servers with different game rules, like normal (generic MMO rules, instant heals, no large penalties for death, teleport/fast travel etc) and hardcore (heals are all slow HoTs, dying carries a harsh penalty, no teleports/fast travel)... and had a role system (tank/heal/support/damage).Â
I legit enjoy having the role system. Lots of people do. Naunet has already mentioned that she doesn't like playing a damage-dealer role at all, which means that non-trinity games just completely lose her right from the starting gate.
When you make a "non-trinity" game, everybody is just a damage dealer. I like playing a damage dealer, but I also like playing a healer and a tank and a support class. There's a reason why class-based games are so popular--because you get lots of variety in gameplay. So-called "classless" games aren't really without roles, they just don't narrowly define them and you have a bit more freedom to play around (however, there will always be builds that are utterly terrible and those that are amazingly broken).
Also... not to put a damper on anyone's enthusiasm, but I don't think the tech is where it needs to be to create something like that, not to mention that something like that is so far outside the "norm" that publishers are really super unlikely to want to take a risk on it.
Well, no, just because you don't have a trinity-class system doesn't mean you'll all end up doing the exact same thing. Â Let's take your standard "assault the castle" scenario. Â The average MMO splits you into tanks, DPS, and healers, then gives you small packs of enemies to fight at a time. Â There are other ways to do this division. Â Let's say that, instead, you split everyone between melee and ranged. Â Ranged include your support classes and ranged DPS (archers, wizards, etc.). Â Their only mitigation is space, so solo they will use crowd control, but in a group that leaves them vulnerable, but necessary. Â Melee mitigate by whatever means (dodging, tanking with armor, maybe ranged control with a polearm keeping them at a distance).
Point being that everyone deals damage, but the melee form a battle line to keep the ranged from being swarmed. Â That means sometimes huddling around one enemy to keep it contained, ranged to the outside staying out from in front maybe depending on mechanic? Â Sometimes they have to circle the wagons and you'll surround the ranged with the melee in a ring. Â Maybe it becomes important to keep the high ground or escape low ground because you can be fired on with impunity?
I think that was a sort of goal at the beginning of XIV's development, but it never panned out. Â Kind of sad, though, I think it's really going somewhere. Â It would involve the kind of tactical coordination you just don't get from a random group of people.
Or, let's imagine the "kill the dragon" scenario, returning to the theoretical example from before. Â Let's say, instead of needing tank, DPS, healer, you need someone that can disable the dragon, so they know it won't escape. Â That could be an entire job, or just a side job for someone dealing damage. Â Someone might be your support character, like an alchemist who paints everyone up for battle and buffs them depending on what's coming. Â Maybe you need a debuffer, some kind of crippler that mitigates the incoming damage with traps or other tools. Â Hell, we'll even say you need a tracker just to be able to find one reliably or draw it into a trap with beast knowledge.
Now let's say that the dragon, once you've got it tracked, pinned, debuffed, and you're buffed, you need to dismantle it essentially. Â It's too big to kill outright. Â So you need someone with a long weapon to attack the wings and the bits that are hard to reach. Â To eventually knock it over, you need someone taking potshots at the legs with blunt objects. Â You want to cut off the dangerous bits to make it easier, like using a sword or an axe. Â Maybe risky people would like smaller weapons, like swords and shields, to get right underneath and poke at the soft bits. Â Maybe you even get archers or riflemen to do that.
In essence, you'd have created a role/damage variable class system that has nothing to do with tanking or healing, but still requires those things to perform what might be considered a raid or party task.
Another example I can think of off the top of my head would be a totally classless system, in fact might be completely without level or stats, but would instead be based around gear. Â Let's say dragon-kill-scenario, you have certain people who have no fear of dragon abilities and sets up a set of heavy armor and a long spear to attack from the front. Â Then you need people to every side to make sure it doesn't go anywhere. Â Maybe instead you want lighter armor, but rely on being able to evade and jump out of the way of attacks faster. Â Or you can equip different armor for different playstyles, tailoring it to the way you feel most comfortable.
Apply that mentality to the castle assault. Â Let's say you go Bushido Blade style, one hit to the fleshy bits can kill you, but depending on what armor you wear, you might stand a better chance of surviving. Â So do you sneak into the castle as a set of ninjas and assassins, avoiding the enemies? Â Do you do it 47 Ronin style, sneaking in and then charging through with swords out? Â Do you besiege it with arrow fire? Â Do you assault the main gate like a boss? Â That might rely on different kinds of armor, different weapons, even different learned skillsets. Â It would be classless since your level of armor is arbitrary to your playstyle, how and if you deal damage would be likewise (and would be more about that one hit that disables/kills your enemy rather than racking up big numbers, so it would be more in the technique), and there would be no healer. Â You would avoid damage or you would die.
That last example might be the only one we could have technical issues on. Â Instant kills by lag would be a nightmare. Â I wonder if it would be better to have the launch of the attack be the trigger in the game so that the lag would be in the beginning, not the end, of the attack, giving everyone a chance to react. Â In a sense, those have been done in Bushido Blade and another great game, Tenchu (if you never heard of it, check it out).
These are just ideas off the top of my head. Â I'm sure a developer could get something even more intuitive and interesting if they thought about this kind of stuff all day as a job. Â That's why I'm disappointed. Â They could make these kinds of things work, and the games they would have made would all be MMORPGs, would all be idiosyncratic and different from each other, and most of all they'd all be awesome as Hell if done correctly.
And that's just the two most common scenarios in a fantasy/medieval setting. Â You could really go nuts with the sci-fi stuff or even crazier settings. Â That's just classes and roles as it pertains to the most common PVE scenarios in RPGs.