The RP Healer Manifesto, slightly cross-posted from Tumblr

[Erah'sae]

7 hours ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

My entire problem is that people play asshole characters like a weapon regardless of how it affects other people's experiences, and that kind of thing drives people away hard.

 

I should directly address this...

 

There's a simple solution for this.

Don't play with them. 

 

If there is a public venue with people playing like you don't want to play,  your group can pick up their figurative ball and go elsewhere? 

Without having anyone (DM, FC lead, whatever) to enforce rules or 'fair play' onto others, it's really the only viable solution.

 

This is especially true since there are groups of internet trolls out there that make characters specifically to ruin other people's RP. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nevivi Nevi]

Kinda done with the assumption that I'm somehow against character conflict. I'm not. Seriously. I'm not trying to stop characters from fighting with each other! I'm talking about PLAYERS starting OOC conflict and how that impacts people and their drive to even RP. People (I can probably go find more than I have fingers and toes right now, easy) stop playing characters purely because of the things I've mentioned and that's not alright with me.

 

I dunno guys I don't think this is getting anywhere. Like I said I've felt this way about the state of RP for a year plus. I'm not changing my mind. Clearly nobody else is either and that's fine. But I'm m still standing by what I've said, and the many positive responses I've gotten elsewhere. So maybe this forum has a different culture than elsewhere. Clearly I should just stick to elsewhere, then, according to the majority of the replies. Is that actually the kind of community you want? If someone's got an issue, they can just bail, basically? Or is anyone at least going to acknowledge that this is an issue even if my tone sucks?

 

Yeah, I could have pitched it a lot better, I'll own that, but I posted from a place of extreme frustration with the current situation for how healers feel entitled to behave towards each other and as it is this is getting kinda snipey and pointless and I'm kinda over discussing it. Take it or leave it. That was the original point anyway. I said I hoped people would consider following it, not that they HAD TO OMG OR THEY ARE BAD RPERS or something. I really have nothing new to say at this point that isn't a rehash of something I've already said.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Nevivi Nevi

[Zhavi]

For me, in rp, it boils down to this:  treat others how they wanna be treated.  If for whatever reason you can't or don't want to, then just leave them alone.

 

Whatever you play.  Whatever anyone else plays.  RP is a personal hobby, and everyone has a different way of enjoying it.  What I enjoy, I know a lot of people don't -- and that's okay.  I don't expect them to rp with me.  I find people who enjoy what I have to offer and actively wanna participate, just like I find people who offer what I enjoy and actively wanna participate in.

 

If everyone was the same and did the same thing it's highly likely it'd be stuff I don't fully enjoy.....so I'm a big fan of everyone having their own style and doing their own thing.  Just don't force your way on others, you know?  I think that's what the OP intended, but didn't necessarily realize that not everyone plays in a way that is negatively impacted by the things the "manifesto" is trying to correct.

 

Just talk to people when they do something you don't like (if you don't want to talk beforehand), try to find ways everyone can have fun.  If you can't, move on.

 

edit - for what it's worth, I think this is totally a valuable conversation to have, and I always think it's valuable to try to improve other peoples' experiences.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Zhavi

[Warren Castille]

Chiming in to echo some other folks' opinions from the view of one of the people hosting events that incur injuries:

 

It's super annoying when someone agrees to the setting of an event and then refuses to let healing take place, or undersells it, or otherwise takes what would be the end of a segment (your match ending) and turns that into a new segment (the sudden battle against life or death because my other RP just ended so now I want to monopolize the healer's RP time).

 

In a random setting or smaller-scale setting, feel free to emphasize your injuries and make that a dramatic scene as needed. For the various fight clubs that have many people in the waiting, it's needless unless you're dragging your own contacts in to stabilize you on the side.

 

Roleplaying is about cooperation. When people try to unilaterally decide rules for everyone to follow it ends poorly more often than not. Not accusing OP of doing that, but roleplayers also tend to interpret things in the worst possible way. Not accusing anyone here of doing that either, but you all know what I'm talking about.

[Valence]

I have a hard time understanding what the issue is then... Do you have examples of something that happened and that you consider poor or to avoid entirely? I'm trying to see where that manifesto comes from to be honest, maybe I'll see better with concrete examples...

[CatBiter]

I debated on not replying to this at all. In part because, not even halfway down the original post and after whats' (almost frightneningly) been 20 years in online RP communities : I got a whiff of toxicity I'm all too familiar with smelling from some role players. A lot of us with especially long time experience can probably say we've seen the most of it, and know exactly what I'm talking about when I mention this. Some of us have been guilty of it from time to time. I know I've caught myself at it a few times over the years. The same. This is not a new conversation, and I can say with certainty it's been going on at least 20 years. Gods I feel old when I type that! Liek I should be waving around a cane that says: I REMEMBER  MSN CHAT AND GROUPS! GET OFF MAH LAWN!

 

 But!

 

Personally, and as someone who's been on not only both sides of this been-going-on-forever conversation/debate; as well as having been a GM/ST for both tabletop and MMO RP I think if you wanted less 'snipey' replies and responses.. you likely should have started and continued your interaction with the thread you started with a far less aggressive and then passive-aggressive approach to begin with.

 

Really, all you needed was 1, 7, and 10. The rest is insultingly assumptive of anyone and everyone who might read it. No kind of about it; especially with the words you chose to type out. Definitely something more for ragey-post in the drudges of tumblr, or facebook rather than here I think. For instance: my free company currently has a former nurse who roleplays our medic: they -do- know what they're doing. Just because they're certified.. doesn't mean they don't play games or roleplay. And prior to that? We did have an actual, IRL doctor in our group (he stopped playing the doctor in RP in part because, though he did it VERY well; he only enjoyed it half the time as he pretty much spent his days doing the same and it started to feel like work more than fun.)

 

At the end of the day, and assuming you actually posted this for discussion and not for attention or toxic-troll fix of making yourself feel better than someone else:

 

People will roleplay who and what they're going to roleplay, and while communication is key: that doesn't just mean the other person: nor should anyone in a public setting have to feel restricted by your personal restrictions on your roleplay. If you have issues with that, especially in a public portion of a massive multiplayer online game chat: you may want to step back and examine whether MMOs or large groups are the right place for your specific style of play: or whether roleplay group more confined to housing etc is more for you. Because as it stands; anywhere else where it's not game-made NPCs standing around you, it's other people.

 

If you put yourself in public, into their open RP range; you are accepting the fact that those already there or who come by can see you, hear you, and yes trip over you or whatever else while you're healing some goon in the middle of the floor if they think it would happen. If you want less, yes; you are going to have to take it to a less public venue. That's just how life is. If you don't expect the entire IRL park to get up and leave or be non-responsive when you have a freak-out session at your boyfriend in it, or a cop not to come up wandering by when you throw something at him; then don't expect the same to always happen in a public place in game. That's not how reality works, and it's especially not how things work in public in general: public chats and locations in game included.

 

If you find you can't or don't want to handle that; there are options mentioned above and more: though I personally don't see the point of coming to even a remotely  a public venue just to exclude those in it... at the end of the day you are only responsible for and can change your personal environment RP. Not only is it bad form to try and force others to change before they're ready or to conform to what you want versus what they want, it's just straight impossible until you become them. Which, again; impossible. Party chat is your friend. Housing is lockable, as are personal rooms in it. Discord and PMs or IMs, are a thing. So is blocking. If these aren't something you want to do; the only thing that needs to change at that stage is you; and more specifically the way you look at whatever person you want to try to blame for the day. There are trolls out there, true. However, we do outnumber them. Most, want to have fun RPing just like you do.

 

I've said this I don't even know how many times now: we do this for FUN.

All of us.

Forgetting that about the next person who posts or walks up to you in game and viewing them as some alien invader rather than communicating and trying to meet that middle ground between styles and preferences in a game like this? Because they like to play differently than you do, or have a different opinion? You're never going to be anything but unhappy UNTIL you come to terms with and remind yourself of these very simple facts.

Edited February 23, 2018 by CatBiter

[Nevivi Nevi]

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...after whats' (almost frightneningly) been 20 years in online RP communities...

 

So we're about the same age. Didn't like this particular behavior then, still don't like it now.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...as well as having been a GM/ST for both tabletop and MMO RP...

 

And we have the same hobbies, go figure.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

For instance: my free company currently has a former nurse who roleplays our medic: they -do- know what they're doing. Just because they're certified.. doesn't mean they don't play games or roleplay. And prior to that? We did have an actual, IRL doctor in our group (he stopped playing the doctor in RP in part because, though he did it VERY well; he only enjoyed it half the time as he pretty much spent his days doing the same and it started to feel like work more than fun.)

 

Okay? Good for them? The vast majority of RPers aren't in that situation and I'm not sure why it's worth bringing this up. I am not standing here telling IRL doctors they aren't doctors, I'm trying to remind people who are nervous about not having ALL the information that they don't even need all of it.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...and assuming you actually posted this for discussion and not for attention or toxic-troll fix of making yourself feel better than someone else:

 

How magnanimous of you. Don't go after my tone and then do the same thing, dude, I acknowledged mine was crap and backed off of it. This isn't called for.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...you may want to step back and examine whether MMOs or large groups are the right place for your specific style of play: or whether roleplay group more confined to housing etc is more for you.

 

I'd counter that I am actually overall having a blast, and the reason I have said anything is that I feel there's room for improvement. That doesn't mean 'omg I am so fragile!! I can never leave my house!!'...that I am fortunate to even have, considering that I'm on Balmung, and this kind of rebuttal leaves out anyone who doesn't have ready access to housing aside from being really disingenuous. I already don't generally roll with large groups outside of social events because the chat scroll is a pain to keep up with (doesn't stop me from running a few events anyway), but I'm not posting about solely my experiences, I'm posting because I have seen easily 10-15 or more of my friends get shafted by presumptive people. This isn't even about me in particular. I'd appreciate it if people would focus on something other than what they've assumed my RP habits are.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

If you put yourself in public, into their open RP range; you are accepting the fact that those already there or who come by can see you, hear you, and yes trip over you or whatever else while you're healing some goon in the middle of the floor if they think it would happen. If you want less, yes; you are going to have to take it to a less public venue. That's just how life is. If you don't expect the entire IRL park to get up and leave or be non-responsive when you have a freak-out session at your boyfriend in it, or a cop not to come up wandering by when you throw something at him; then don't expect the same to always happen in a public place in game. That's not how reality works, and it's especially not how things work in public in general: public chats and locations in game included.

 

No, I am really not accepting that. You are, and that's fine, but it's not universal. If we're all starting from the viewpoint that everyone has autonomy over their character, which I don't think anyone's disagreed with yet, then I actually don't have to just accept whatever happens from whoever is out there. We don't even have common consensus over what year it is, let alone what time of day (if I'm having dinner at the Bismarck, and you're having breakfast...we're both right, for our own canon, but it might make interacting weird). It's not reality, it's RP, and the details are malleable by design.

 

Of course people IRL would react to IRL events, but this isn't IRL. That's entirely my point and you're kind of making it for me. If I were having a dramatic scene in public, I probably would use party chat, but then /em doesn't work in party chat and just because I flub a line into it isn't an invitation any more than any other kind of MT. If everyone can be expected to just ignore such a scene IRL then that actually works great for not crashing someone's RP. If I ICly chucked something at a Brass Blade RPer near me, then yes, I would expect them to join because I just interacted with them. If I ICly chucked something at a Brass Blade NPC and someone whipped out a uniform out of nowhere and tried to apprehend my character, I'd probably tell them to shove off, because I wasn't involving them. Or maybe I'd roll with it, but it's subjective, and I'm not obligated to either course of action.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...though I personally don't see the point of coming to even a remotely  a public venue just to exclude those in it... at the end of the day you are only responsible for and can change your personal environment RP.

 

Sometimes you just want to RP in a given location for plot reasons, man. Or just a change of scenery. How boring would it be to only ever have scenes inside one room? I am literally saying that people are responsible for their RP and that includes what they don't want to RP. Making it such that they just have to accept whatever happens isn't responsibility. And again, if you decide that what's right and fun for you personally is to take on all comers, go out and have fun, this is not even a problem for me. My problem is when it's presented as The Only Right Way To RP when it's really not. Everyone isn't automatically entitled to everything they see.

 

On 2/23/2018 at 2:38 PM, CatBiter said:

...viewing them as some alien invader rather than communicating and trying to meet that middle ground between styles and preferences in a game like this? Because they like to play differently than you do, or have a different opinion? You're never going to be anything but unhappy UNTIL you come to terms with and remind yourself of these very simple facts.

 

I am actually advocating that you absolutely should communicate about your styles and preferences because that's just basic consent, dude, and I'm not unhappy with anything except the assumption that you don't have to communicate. I am actually pretty happy in general with the RP I've both had and seen. You don't have to be miserable to say something's off. I am floored by how much of your post is actually you just...agreeing with me, only really aggressively.

 

 

I am going to rework this idea to be broader, i.e. not just about healers but about consent and RP in general, because clearly the point I had meant to make is being completely overlooked for various reasons, and from talking to people elsewhere I am starting to think this is just a community-wide issue. Clearly the standard here on this forum is that RP is all open unless specified otherwise via physical barrier (party chat, locked door, etc.), but this forum isn't the entire world, and this particular standard is failing a lot of people. AND TO REITERATE, YOU CAN RP LIKE THAT. THAT'S FINE. I'M NOT THE BOSS OF YOU. I AM NEITHER TRYING TO BE, NOR DO I WANT TO BE, THE BOSS OF YOU. But other people are the boss of themselves and not all of them want what you want, and that is equally fine. What I am saying is that you need to communicate about what you want and figure out how it aligns, and a lot of people haven't given this any consideration and it's ending up in OOC conflict and people with no idea what boundaries are or how to apply them to themselves or others. (Universal 'you' for all this last part.)

[Faye]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:02 AM, Erah'sae said:

Here's my version manifesto as a roleplayer.  It covers healers, the physically violent, and anything else.

"Only you control what happens to your character.  You are the master of your own fate (if you want to be.)"
"If you attempt to do something ICly, deal with the the IC repercussions of your actions."
"You don't have to RP topics you as a player don't feel comfortable with.  Don't try and make others do this either."
"Don't write the effects of your actions, leave that to those you are attempting to effect.  Fail in this and you're godmodding."
"Keep IC IC and OOC  OOC."

That's it... That covers just about anything.  

That... is basically all the OP was getting at, only more specific to healing RP in general. I don't really see how the initial "manifesto" goes against any of that, or adds any extra concepts?

 

On 2/16/2018 at 9:02 AM, Erah'sae said:

This concept of having to ask OOC permission before your character would attempt to do something your character would do is... nonsensical in my opinion.  You just have to accept that it might not work or you might get in IC trouble for attempting to do so.  IE:  The event organizers ICly might jump down your throat for running into the field and attempting to do someone else's job.  You might get ICly barred from the establishment.  This is 100% all right, it's part of accepting responsibility for your actions.  That is part of role play that this OOC pre-permissive side of things kills in it's attempt to eliminate any unexpected character conflict.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now.  As someone who's successfully played a healer for a decade in 'that other game' without complaint* things like this manifesto bother me.  If people understand point 1, 2, and 3, everything works out.  To take the example in the the opening of the manifesto... if you trample over someone else, or interrupt someone else's work on an injured person be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions.   For everyone else, deal with it ICly cause consequences make conflict.  That's where the real character growth and role-play opportunities come from.  It isn't from emoting about flesh knitting together under the blue-white glow of curative magics.  That gets about as dull as emoting about a right hook for the 100th time.

Expecting role-players to be considerate of others OOC and expecting IC actions to be dealt with IC are not mutually exclusive things. I really don't understand where that logic is coming from at all. Sometimes they do conflict, and sometimes you have to try to figure out how to balance them, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't aim for both or that both are not possible. The reality is that RP does not happen in a vacuum. The fictional RP characters aren't real people, the role-players writing them are. We are real people with thoughts and feelings trying to have fun, relax, and write compelling stories with each other, not mindless RP machines and venues for our fake characters' personalities. Sometimes IC things can ruin someone's fun with the RP, and sometimes IC things are done for nasty OOC reasons.

In my previous post in this thread, I mentioned someone in this game once shoved my character away from someone she was healing so her character could try to patch him up with bandages instead. You want the full story? That someone was a girl who really wanted to get with my RP partner, though I don't know if it was IC, OOC, or if there was even a difference to her. The game had just launched, my RP partner and I were struggling to balance RL responsibilities + leveling along with find time to RP together and kick off our characters' stories, and I was still very low level and could only access a few zones. Anytime she saw us both online in these low level zones, she knew we were RPing. She would run around the zone until she found us and invite herself to our RP. This wouldn't be a problem, except she did it every single chance we had to RP, so our characters never got any alone time, and in fact barely got any time together in general, and that time was usually spent with them bickering and having petty disputes. Why? Because, though she would not interact with me or my character in anyway otherwise, her character would very pointedly and not with the slightest bit of provocation insult and harass my character, and make a show of flirting with my RP character's and trying to get him to join in ostracizing my character.

No matter how much I tried to have my character ignore it, she would persist until it just didn't make sense for my character not to have a reaction it. She always escalated it to the point my character could only either respond by walking away from the situation, or turning it into a physical altercation. Not trusting a stranger who was already giving red flags to play a fight fairly and without drama, I usually did the former. One time, I tried heading toward the latter, but when my character shot a blast of water at her, her character was not effected in anyway and she did not acknowledge it anymore than emoting that her character got wet. Even when she shoved my character out of the way while she was trying to heal my RP partner's character, she did not allow my character to nudge her out of the way to continue to her work. And the moment my character left, every time her character's aggressive and abrasive personality suddenly disappeared and as she started trying to sleep with my RP partner's character instead. Her character was apparently overly amorous with his and absolutely vehement about tearing down my character, my character was a snooty noblewoman who wouldn't stand for being disrespected and disliked others acting inappropriately, his character was a playboy more than happy to get attention from a woman and have someone to team up with in telling my character she was snobby. Obviously, we couldn't keep much of a believable RP going between the three of us without at least one of us "breaking character," right? And because of her refusal to ever give us a break, and my desire to avoid OOC conflict and my worries that my frustrations would be assumed to be from "bleeding" (as you are here now, yourself, acting like is the only reason someone might ever shy away from an IC conflict) and not just the annoyance of never getting any meaningful RP in with my own RP partner, that person was always me.

This went on for weeks. It had quickly gone from some potentially fun IC conflict, to an annoyance and disappointment that I could never RP with my RP partner without hiding in party or tells, to a reason to fear this IC harassment and total lack for regard the accompanying obvious OOC inconveniences for my RP partner and I were so rampant there must have been some ill intentions from this girl OOC. I finally brought up to my RP partner that it was beginning to upset me. He was getting frustrated himself with how difficult it was making it for us to get in any quality RP. He began politely rejecting her attempted interruptions of our RP OOC by telling her we wanted some alone time and hadn't had much time to RP, but then she just took her attempts at impeding our RP OOC, this almost total stranger he had no obligations to telling him he had already RPed enough with me, we already spent enough time together, he should RP with her instead. Eventually, I finally told her to leave me and my character alone. She immediately played the victim, threw some insults my way, and told me she was "quitting" the game. Months later, though we wouldn't realize it for a long time, she returned on a name-changed and fantasia'd character, hiding her identity, befriending my RP partner and I, joining our FC and causing many problems within it, namely latching onto male players and harassing any female players around them OOC as well as IC. Knowing what I know now about this person and this pattern in her behavior, her IC actions toward my character were not without OOC motivations and malice. She did it intentionally via role-play to have the shield of "it's all IC" to hide behind, even though when we saw through and began to confront her OOC she started using the same tactics there as she had IC.

But according to your arguments, I should have kept it all IC and RPed the "fun" of this petty IC catfight that was rooted in her motives to get with my RP partner's character before mine started dating him, despite my OOC discomfort, my worry that this conflict was bleeding OOC, and my lack of ability to RP with my own RP partner in public, just because her harassment was all happening via her character. I should have just given her "IC consequences," even though she never let her character lose an argument, even though she brushed off my character attacking hers, even though she just ignored my character trying to shove her away to reclaim her healing position as the injured character was bleeding to death on the ground. I should have carried on without ever speaking up to her or my RP partner even though I was strongly considering quitting RP and the game altogether because of my frustrations and unhappiness.

In a perfect world, IC actions can always be dealt with 100% IC. This isn't a perfect world. This is a world where sometimes we get our feelings hurt, and sometimes people are jerks. Sometimes, people have something planned for RP that they were really excited about and might have spent a lot of time on, and "IC actions" derail it. Sometimes, "IC actions" are tied with a subject that makes us deeply uncomfortable OOC that we have no desire to explore in RP where we are trying to relax and have a good time. Sometimes, "IC actions" are a character harassing and stalking yours to the point you can't take your character in public settings or RP in public when that person is online and thus impede your OOC ability to RP. Conflict, drama, villains, antagonists, enemies, etc. are great! They can add a lot to your RP! But sometimes, they can detract from your RP, they can make it difficult to RP when/where/what you want to RP on your already probably limited time, they can ruin your enjoyment of the RP OOC.

That's why it's more than okay to speak up OOC, or have ground rules already in place. That's why if you're on the other end of things where you might be potentially upsetting someone OOC, it's polite to reach out to them first, and you should definitely listen to any concerns or complaints they give you, and you should definitely ask permission before having your character do anything too extreme (especially if you expect/want your character to succeed). The goal of RP is for everyone involved to have fun (within reason--I know there are unfortunately some people out there who only have "fun" when they are winning or when everyone is else playing by their script, but we're considering those exceptions), not to intentionally make a character concept that could make things difficult for others OOC and then proceed to insist on having them act however you want them to act aka "how they would act" at the expense of other role-players' comfort. You're doing something wrong if you're playing your character as a bull in the china shop of other's OOC enjoyment because "I don't want to break character" and "that's just how my character acts." You made that character, you decide every action your character makes, it is up to you to curb your character so that your RP partners enjoy themselves, too, and if you feel you have to alter your character's personality and censor their actions more than you are comfortable with, it's up to you to walk away from the RP and not try to force it instead.

I truly appreciate when someone whose character is harassing mine reaches out to me OOC to touch base, or when someone asks OOC before bringing up a touchy subject in RP, or when they ask permission before their character decides to try attack/antagonize/assault/grope/pickpocket/etc. mine. I'm a pretty go-with-the-flow person, I don't usually need these precautions and I typically give people the go-ahead, but it's just nice that someone is actually concerned with my OOC feelings on the RP. You don't have to ask before doing anything. There are no real rules here outside of the game's ToS or whatever rules your FC expects you to follow, this is typically open world RP where, yes, "anything can happen." But that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with people who do like to ask first, or that there's anything wrong with those who want to be asked first and believe it's the right thing to do.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Faye

[LiadansWhisper]

I don't think Erah'sae was talking about godmodding, Faye.  And that's what that crazy ho was doing - she was godmodding.  I think there's a huge difference.

 

You tried to deal with it IC.  Which is all Erah'sae was saying.  The crazy ho wouldn't actually RP out consequences.  Erah'sae wasn't in any way saying that you should continue to put up with that.

[Faye]

23 minutes ago, LiadansWhisper said:

I don't think Erah'sae was talking about godmodding, Faye.  And that's what that crazy ho was doing - she was godmodding.  I think there's a huge difference.

 

You tried to deal with it IC.  Which is all Erah'sae was saying.  The crazy ho wouldn't actually RP out consequences.  Erah'sae wasn't in any way saying that you should continue to put up with that.

The only things that could be considered "godmodding" imo were her not giving much of a reaction to my character attacking hers or shoving her (and iirc, when she shoved my character out of the way, I think it was written as an auto-hitty completed action and not an attempt) but those are sort of subjective considering no one is required to take an action from another character, or take it in a specific way. But I don't think it really matters. By the point my character was actually beginning to retaliate physically, I was already beyond frustrated OOC, considering throwing in the towel, and had already had to walk away from the game on the verge of tears once. The godmodding was nothing more than the icing on the cake and the realization to me that pretending these OOC things were IC and dealing with them that way was not going to work.

She was doing it for OOC reasons and wasn't going to have any IC things get in her way, and my own frustrations were not stemming from how her character was acting directly, but rather how her character's actions were affecting my ability to RP as I pleased. And I brought way more stress on myself than necessary but trying to deal with things IC for far longer than I should have. I don't think anyone should have to do that to themselves for the sake of proving that they tried to put in a genuine effort to deal with things IC first. I should have spoke up sooner about my discomfort OOC, but I was afraid it would be presumed as me blurring IC and OOC for the very prevalent attitude--which is very visible in this thread--that any issues with something that happened IC are an instant sign of "bleeding" and never ever are due to anything else. Dealing with things IC doesn't always work when the cause for upset is something OOC (in this case, difficulty RPing with my RP partner in the way we wanted to), and it's also not always feasible for people playing certain character types (i.e. shy and nonconfrontational characters).

I mean if nothing else, if an IC conflict happens and someone tells me OOC that they want no part of it and I think they're being unreasonable? It just saves me time in interacting any further with someone who I think is being unfair or who has an RP style that just doesn't mesh with mine.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Faye

[Nevivi Nevi]

RP attempts in bad faith to try and get something OOCly out of someone (an angry reaction, their IRL partner's attention, catfishing for items, etc.) just...don't deserve the time of day. They really don't. Personally that's something I would not even spend the energy on trying to resolve ICly first. If someone's already trying to force IC/OOC bleed, I'd just jump straight to, "no, and also leave me alone," and I would hope nobody would fault anyone else for the same. People only have so much time and energy in a day. Choosing to not spend it on something ultimately unproductive if not destructive should be supported, IMHO.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Nevivi Nevi

[Valence]

I guess now I'm really confused as to what was the initial point since what's written in that manifesto has literally very little to do with addressing godmodding or basic RP etiquette.

 

I'm not totally sure why you're complaining again about people intruding into your RP when we were speaking about public venues and public RP... weren't we?

 

Anyway, with all those new answers I'll try to address the OP manifesto more specifically, then:

 

1. Injured characters are not stepping stones to making a scene all about you, unless it really is already your scene. Leave the spotlight where you found it.

I guess it's aimed at people trying to take all the spotlight for themselves right? This is a very common issue pointed out in roleplay communities. Of course it's bad form. And as I said I believe any good RP should be self regulating enough that a character being such an ass about it (LET ME HEAL ME ME ME!) will just get scorned by everyone else around. A player trying to always show how awesome their character is, will probably lose most of their OOC contacts really fast, but yes, this is a problem. And like any RP that ruffles your feathers the wrong way, you just bow out unless you want to make a scene and create drama. Up to you.

 

What probably tilted a lot of people in the way this point is presented is that no matter how I read it, I'm not totally sure we're really talking about people trying to put their characters at the center all the time and show how awesome they are. "Unless it's already your scene". "Leave the spotlight where you found it". I find it rather hypocritical to tell people they shouldn't take THE SPOTLIGHT when you insist that you already have it. Why do you feel the need to take and keep THE SPOTLIGHT? 

1. Other writers always have bodily autonomy over their characters no matter how accomplished your character is. Your job is to facilitate what they will allow to have happen to their character, within your character’s abilities. Anything else is god-modding. If someone says they don't want to be insta-healed, you don't get to insta-heal them. If they want to have a lasting scar, or a disability, or even die? That is their call. Don't go around trying to 'fix' someone's disabled character who doesn't want it. Just like (I hope) you already know you shouldn't god-mod your fist into someone's face, do not god-mod your healing abilities into their face either. It's no different.

I don't see what else to add to that since it's just about basic godmodding, really. Nobody argues against that, but I don't see the point in turning it for healer RP especially. This is true for any RP. You don't dictate to anyone "/me heals you instantly and completely and all your woes are gone" any more than "/me kills you, nothing personel kid".

1. If someone’s character is injured and someone else is there first, tough. They got there first. You may ask to join, and you may be told no. Respect that. Stumbling onto a scene that your character 'would want to help!!' in doesn't mean you actually have the right do jump in, just like any other scene. Healers ain't special. Scene-crashing is still incredibly rude and uncalled-for.

We're talking about public venues right? If you don't want someone intruding on your RP and ruin your nicely wrapped little plot, do it in private. There is really nothing more to add. If someone insists to hop into a private RP, just ignore them, move to another spot, or report them for harassment if they continue to be a nuisance.

1. It isn’t always your job to jump in and patch someone up. It might well be someone else's based on pre-existing group dynamics or rules. If you’re RPing on private property, in a moderated open world event, in an open forum, or otherwise in a venue or group with a hierarchy that includes a healer, and you’re not that healer, you don’t do their job for them unless asked. It’s not your scene. A lot of events, such as fight clubs, have their own healers on staff, and that job belongs to them unless you OOCly discuss who's doing what and come to an agreement.

I don't get it. What gives the healer priority for RP? Why don't you do their job unless asked? Why is it not your scene but only the healer's? Are other RPers just here as secondary roles, and supportive characters when you are under THE SPOTLIGHT? They should just sit nicely and quietly clap their hand until you're done with your piece as a healer?  And when you're done and it's up to another scene, with someone else taking THE SPOTLIGHT, you turn into a secondary role and stay quiet and supportive? What kind of asinine bullcrap RP is that? 

 

"Pre existing group dynamics and rules". What, everyone has a A ROLE and they should always stick to it? What kind of childish entitlement is that? "You don't get to play the healer, I AM THE HEALER!" and "HEY YOU, STOP SINGING, IT'S THE BARD'S JOB FFS!" Really? Unless I read something wrong, do you see how silly that sounds? Just tell your bard to be pissed with it and tell the fucker "Your music is bad and you should feel bad" instead of making an OOC drama out of it like a petulent child.

1. If you have subjects you don’t want to write about, you have the right to be clear and firm about them. You aren’t a real doctor. Nobody actually dies if you pass on a scene that could harm you to participate in. You have the right to end any interaction that crosses a boundary, on the spot, and without explanation until and unless you’re calm and able to do so. Even RPing a healer sort there can absolutely be subjects you don't want to touch, and that's your right to not get into them. If it's something that your character would do but you as a writer don't want to deal with, handwave it. If you don't even want to be involved? Don't be involved. It's that simple.

While I definitely believe that you shouldn't have to be a doctor with 10 years of studies and practice behind IRL to play a doctor in roleplay settings, or an experienced hunter to play a hunter ICly, or whatever, I also strongly believe in the rule "don't play a liar if you don't know how to decently lie". If your healer constantly breaks suspension of disbelief by spouting healing nonsense instead of common sense healing and mumbo jumbo that sounds plausible (not true, just plausible), then it's failing that check in my opinion.

 

Then, if you aren't okay or at ease with something in RP, this is a limit that you definitely shouldn't breach, yes. Bow out if something bothers you, and pester the other RPers if it was agreed before hand that you aren't into gorey stuff, or whatever makes you uneasy... But if nothing was agreed upon, then I think that just politely bowing out is the way to go. You have no right to tell everyone to stop RPing something because of your own IRL failings, no matter how understandable they are.

 

Also, I strongly question the will to play a healer if you're not okay with healing some specific things, like gore, or whatever. You're roleplaying healing, of course some things will turn bloody! And if you were okay with blood, but not intricate details about guts and bowels, then yeah, ask nicely OOC if they could tone it down because personal limits and all that, and if no, then bow out?

 

What's the point in handwaving things in roleplay? Why roleplaying if it's to make some handwaves and signs and say "it's done!"?

1. You aren’t a real doctor. You won’t know how to handle everything realistically and that’s okay. Do research as you want/need, but don’t stress about it. Anyone who gives you shit for doing it wrong needs to take a step back. It's just a story, after all, and there's no need to get bent over a missed detail or something. You are within your rights to tell them to back off over it.

Cf above,  depends what. If I stumble  on a healer and I find everything they write totally mindboggling, I'll bow out OOCly. I'll not harass them, but I'll bow out. If I stumble on a fighter that keeps telling me that a bow requires dexterity, I'll bow out (no pun intended). As you said, do some basic research. Some people will have higher tolerance to bullshitting your way, some lower. And it's fine, they'll bow out if it bothers them. If they don't, then it's harassment.

1. There is no shame in researching anything you don’t know. Try adding “for writing” to searches. You’d be surprised how much of the heavy lifting has been done already. Don’t be afraid to gloss over things, too, there's a reason it takes 10+ years to become a doctor in real life. Expecting that of yourself or others for the sake of a little RP is just silly, but Google can be your friend if you really need some information quickly.

Nothing to add here, basic rule.

1. You have the right to tell anyone else butting into a scene that you are already part of to butt right back on out. It’s your scene if someone approaches you for healing. It’s your scene if it’s pre-negotiated. It’s your scene if it’s your own character being injured. It’s your scene if you are the healer in attendance for your group. Tolerating a scene-crasher, no matter how well-intentioned, is not something that any RPer has to do.

Okay, we're back to THE SPOTLIGHT entitlement here. cf above.

1. Don’t be a douche. Don’t be a scene-stealer. Don’t be a spotlight hog. Don’t be more powerful than your patients want. Don’t forget to communicate. Don’t get so swept up in being important that you fail to be thoughtful. You can't be part of the solution while you're being part of the problem. Real people are on the other end of every single character, and everyone deserves to be treated with respect.

Okay. I guess I don't work into "my scene or X's scene or Y's scene" when I RP. This is totally alien to me. It's everyone's scene. Back to THE SPOTLIGHT issue.

1. Do have fun and be polite and respectful to each other. There’s enough RP to go around. There really is! I'm serious! And if there’s not, we’re all capable of finding or making some. You’re only entitled to scenes you have a legitimate claim to, whether it's because you started it, you're on staff for an event, or you were given the go-ahead to join. Honestly, an enormous amount of the RP in this game boils down to "oh no so-and-so got hurt!!" just because of the nature of the setting and the types of conflict that happen. Healers are not lacking for something to do, and if you are, there are several healer linkshells and organizations that you can get together with and flex your doctor muscles.

Claims to scenes for THE SPOTLIGHT sounds genuinely silly to me. Makes absolutely zero sense. Reading the last line, it just feels like you want to be the only one doctor on site. Bad news, this is a popular job. /shrug

Edited March 2, 2018 by Valence

[Nevivi Nevi]

8 hours ago, Valence said:

What probably tilted a lot of people in the way this point is presented is that no matter how I read it, I'm not totally sure we're really talking about people trying to put their characters at the center all the time and show how awesome they are. "Unless it's already your scene". "Leave the spotlight where you found it". I find it rather hypocritical to tell people they shouldn't take THE SPOTLIGHT when you insist that you already have it. Why do you feel the need to take and keep THE SPOTLIGHT?

 

I did say I'm going to rewrite it entirely because some parts were coming off as unclear. This is evidently part of that problem. I'm saying nothing about taking and keeping the focus of a scene, I'm saying that joiners shouldn't derail it to be about themselves. If you're actually the focus of the scene whether organically or by plan that's different. There's no hypocrisy here.

 

8 hours ago, Valence said:

I don't see what else to add to that since it's just about basic godmodding, really. Nobody argues against that, but I don't see the point in turning it for healer RP especially. This is true for any RP. You don't dictate to anyone "/me heals you instantly and completely and all your woes are gone" any more than "/me kills you, nothing personel kid".

 

It's a problem people have encountered so I included it. Don't read too hard into it looking for something to pick on here. Some players really do go around insisting they can fix another player's character with a disability or scar and it's poor form, which we agree on.

 

8 hours ago, Valence said:

We're talking about public venues right? If you don't want someone intruding on your RP and ruin your nicely wrapped little plot, do it in private. There is really nothing more to add. If someone insists to hop into a private RP, just ignore them, move to another spot, or report them for harassment if they continue to be a nuisance.

 

This, except that you can hold a private scene anywhere. Closed vs open is a function of what the participants want, not the location.

 

8 hours ago, Valence said:

I don't get it. What gives the healer priority for RP? Why don't you do their job unless asked? Why is it not your scene but only the healer's? Are other RPers just here as secondary roles, and supportive characters when you are under THE SPOTLIGHT? They should just sit nicely and quietly clap their hand until you're done with your piece as a healer?  And when you're done and it's up to another scene, with someone else taking THE SPOTLIGHT, you turn into a secondary role and stay quiet and supportive? What kind of asinine bullcrap RP is that? 

 

"Pre existing group dynamics and rules". What, everyone has a A ROLE and they should always stick to it? What kind of childish entitlement is that? "You don't get to play the healer, I AM THE HEALER!" and "HEY YOU, STOP SINGING, IT'S THE BARD'S JOB FFS!" Really? Unless I read something wrong, do you see how silly that sounds? Just tell your bard to be pissed with it and tell the fucker "Your music is bad and you should feel bad" instead of making an OOC drama out of it like a petulent child.

 

This is a lot of really out-there assumption but I'll bite. With an example, even. So for a while I helped run a small underground fight club style event with an intentionally low-power, gritty vibe. Our medic on staff wasn't aetherically trained, and this was pretty much by design as it kept the stakes for injury higher and maintained our vibe. But they were constantly getting run the hell over by other healers who were downright rude both ICly and OOCly that they weren't 'doing it right.' (Never mind the medic's player is a nurse.) They were specifically on staff for a reason, and it wasn't even that they couldn't work well with others, because I've seen them do it just fine when there's OOC communication; others just couldn't work well with anyone because they saw an opening and felt it was something that had to be fought over.

 

Most events don't give a singular crap who heals what. Some do and that's their call. The majority of cases I'd guess there isn't any kind of hierarchy and so the point is entirely moot. Clearly this needs rewording too, but that's not grounds for being inflammatory about it like you are here.

 

8 hours ago, Valence said:

Then, if you aren't okay or at ease with something in RP, this is a limit that you definitely shouldn't breach, yes. Bow out if something bothers you, and pester the other RPers if it was agreed before hand that you aren't into gorey stuff, or whatever makes you uneasy... But if nothing was agreed upon, then I think that just politely bowing out is the way to go. You have no right to tell everyone to stop RPing something because of your own IRL failings, no matter how understandable they are.

 

Also, I strongly question the will to play a healer if you're not okay with healing some specific things, like gore, or whatever. You're roleplaying healing, of course some things will turn bloody! And if you were okay with blood, but not intricate details about guts and bowels, then yeah, ask nicely OOC if they could tone it down because personal limits and all that, and if no, then bow out?

 

By end interaction I meant bow out, and that was a poor phrasing choice on my part. We agree on this point other than that.

 

As an actual experienced example of what a healer RPer might handwave rather than deal with, I've been more or less ambushed with characters having pregnancy scares and that's a huge squick to me. Don't like it, won't RP about it, don't care how common it is IRL. I've ended up telling people I don't mind if they say they consulted my character about it, or even had her be a midwife because she has no such hangups, but that I won't actually participate in RPing any pregnancy or birth related scenes out. There's countless parts of doctoring that aren't trauma response (and even some of those could cross lines, if you think about how common it is for characters to be missing an eye...I don't think you can get on someone's case too hard for not really wanting to think about that in much detail).

 

8 hours ago, Valence said:

1. You have the right to tell anyone else butting into a scene that you are already part of to butt right back on out. It’s your scene if someone approaches you for healing. It’s your scene if it’s pre-negotiated. It’s your scene if it’s your own character being injured. It’s your scene if you are the healer in attendance for your group. Tolerating a scene-crasher, no matter how well-intentioned, is not something that any RPer has to do.

Okay, we're back to THE SPOTLIGHT entitlement here. cf above.

1. Don’t be a douche. Don’t be a scene-stealer. Don’t be a spotlight hog. Don’t be more powerful than your patients want. Don’t forget to communicate. Don’t get so swept up in being important that you fail to be thoughtful. You can't be part of the solution while you're being part of the problem. Real people are on the other end of every single character, and everyone deserves to be treated with respect.

Okay. I guess I don't work into "my scene or X's scene or Y's scene" when I RP. This is totally alien to me. It's everyone's scene. Back to THE SPOTLIGHT issue.

1. Do have fun and be polite and respectful to each other. There’s enough RP to go around. There really is! I'm serious! And if there’s not, we’re all capable of finding or making some. You’re only entitled to scenes you have a legitimate claim to, whether it's because you started it, you're on staff for an event, or you were given the go-ahead to join. Honestly, an enormous amount of the RP in this game boils down to "oh no so-and-so got hurt!!" just because of the nature of the setting and the types of conflict that happen. Healers are not lacking for something to do, and if you are, there are several healer linkshells and organizations that you can get together with and flex your doctor muscles.

Claims to scenes for THE SPOTLIGHT sounds genuinely silly to me. Makes absolutely zero sense. Reading the last line, it just feels like you want to be the only one doctor on site. Bad news, this is a popular job. /shrug

 

I'm not sure how you read this from the last three.

8. You don't have to put up with people being disruptive.

9. Don't be disruptive yourself, either.

10. Be respectful to others and maybe reach out to foster more of the RP you want to see if you're having trouble finding it.

There you go. I can legitimately see where you're coming from on most of these but this last bit just feels like reaching to be mad or something. How the actual hell did you get that I want to be the only healer from any of this? That sounds horrid. I would never want that in any situation.

 

(If you're going to keep on about my tone you might want to pull your own back a bit, bud. I'm giving you the full benefit of assuming good will here despite it.)

Edited March 2, 2018 by Nevivi Nevi
ugh typing on mobile

[Faye]

I really can't comprehend why so many people are taking issue with this... honestly pretty standard and inoffensive post. Most of all, I don't get the people responding, "well that's just bad RP." I think that's... the point?? Maybe it won't help anything, but people will always want to talk about bad RP etiquette in hopes that maybe it will help someone out there who really didn't know it was a faux pas, or just to vent. Just because a RP or its venue is public and you can literally do something doesn't mean it's not rude or bad form. Whether it's shoving another healer out of the way to take over tending to a wounded person, or jumping into someone else's tavern fight and throwing punches... if it was RL, would you jump right into a scene like that and snatch the reins from someone who had already taken charge and seemed to have the situation well under control? If you have intentionally made your character pushy, rash, or self-absorbed to the point they would do that, that's fine, but when you're interjecting yourself into a scene based on these negative qualities of your character's persona and it's something that might be stepping on the toes of other RPers OOC, it's up to you to touch base OOC, or risk looking kind of like a jerk if you don't.

And no, you can't count on the community to alienate someone for RP taboos. People do worse things and others turn a blind eye, or don't know about it and never find out, unsurprisingly as this is a huge community. Most people won't care if another RPer did a kind of jerk move and stole the RP spotlight from someone other as long as that someone is not themselves (see: the responses on this thread). Telling someone they can't care or complain because someday someone might lose some RP contacts for being rude is about as useful as saying you can't care or complain about any problem because maybe someday karma will "get" the person who caused it.

[Nevivi Nevi]

Yeah, that exactly my point. It's bad RP. There's people who don't realize they're being potentially antagonistic and I honestly think a lot of them would stop if it was pointed out to them, because most people aren't just jerks and everyone is new sometime. This particular forum is pretty weighed towards grognards but the overall experience I've had RPing has been that the old guard is a minority. Yes, even on Balmung.

 

The community simultaneously doesn't condone scene crashing, maintains there's almost no such thing as scene crashing because all scenes visible in public are open, says people should be called out for bad behavior, portrays all call-outs as witch-hunting, gets upset about the RP Police, and will straight up tell you that you're doing it wrong if it's not this one particular way...because the community is huge and is made of multiple smaller communities cobbled together. There's no consensus because there's too many of us in disparate places with different expectations. Show me someone who's a regular poster here and I'll find you an RPer who doesn't even know this site exists. Acting like "the community" will do anything as a group without people actually doing the thing isn't how it works because there's not one single community. It takes individuals actually talking about issues to get them addressed.

 

So...hi, I've seen a problem and I'm talking. Elsewhere I'm at 160ish notes and still no dissent, so even among the sub-communities that make up the larger one, this is a big enough issue that at minimum 80 people have unconditionally agreed, if not added their own stories of how they've been affected. I think it's definitely worth discussing. And I don't think "talk to people and don't act entitled to RP" is unrealistic as an expectation.

[Erah'sae]

18 hours ago, Faye said:

That... is basically all the OP was getting at, only more specific to healing RP in general. I don't really see how the initial "manifesto" goes against any of that, or adds any extra concepts?

 

There are subtle but important differences. It stretched more to the "OOCly ask first before doing anything" side. Rather public situations were used as examples as well. My list was a simplification of it without the pre-permissive nature and without specifically targeting healers because problems in open RP aren't limited to healers in any case.

As far as your situation, I'm sorry it happened. Someone was breaking the IC/OOC wall and generally being an OOC asshat. They're completely out of line. They were intruding into private / closed RP which I've wholly agreed is a 'bad thing' instead of acting directly in the open/public RP situations I was referring to in my posts.  What people do outside of public venues (out in the field alone is not a public venue, really) / in private, which your scenario was is entirely up to them.   Frankly it sounds like that person hit a lot of lines that are just generally accepted as 'bad things': metagaming, doing IC things for OOC reasons, stalking people OOCly.  It also clearly hit the line of "You don't have to RP topics you as a player don't feel comfortable with.  Don't try and make others do this either."  in my list.

 

I think you'd have been entirely in your right to say  "Hey, this is a private scene.  Mind leaving us be?" or "Hey, I don't enjoy what you're doing here.  Bug off" OOCly.

 

The big keep IC/IC and keep OOC/OOC is important as a general rule, but as with everything there are exceptions.   There's a lot of drama that stems from people attacking players for character actions.  There is also a lot of drama when people make their characters do things for OOC reasons (such as what it seems may have happened with your stalker).  Also supposing that IC actions have OOC connotations or vis versa.    IE:  Just because a character may have yelled at another that the player A is angry with Player B, or the more common breach.... Someone assuming a player is interested in them because their character was flirty or perusing their character.    

 

 

[Nevivi Nevi]

I still maintain there's nothing wrong with asking if you can join a scene or with people who would expect that. Considering the extent to which people ask permission to enter someone else's personal space IRL over completely inconsequential things ("Is anyone sitting here?" comes to mind as I was just asked that an hour ago at a coffee shop, over an empty seat in a public space I was in no way even interacting with) it's not a stretch to extend it digitally. We expect little kids to master this with their toys, I think grown-ups can handle it. Still not sure why 'pre-permissive' = anathema here when in almost any other venue that's just called good manners.

 

I chose to talk about healers because...well, because I chose to talk about healers. It's a particular scenario I saw enough to turn me off from almost ever playing a character that used to be my main. Next draft I'm just going to talk about everyone.

[Erah'sae]

I think that works well for private venues.

 

When you're in a public RP venue asking OOCly if people want to RP is redundant.

It's the equivalent of going to a public discussion forum and having everyone expected to PM the original poster before they reply to a public thread.

 

 

 

 

 

[Unnamed Mercenary]

20 minutes ago, Erah'sae said:

I think that works well for private venues.

 

When you're in a public RP venue asking OOCly if people want to RP is redundant.

It's the equivalent of going to a public discussion forum and having everyone expected to PM the original poster before they reply to a public thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A little off-topic, but we totally have that happen. Here, even. (Well, not this thread in particular.) ...but that tends to happen more on the IC boards, like if something says semi-open/closed (basically the same IMO) or closed, where it'd make a bit more sense. (As opposed to IC threads clearly marked open which should imply public if the scene fits, etc).

[Erah'sae]

1 minute ago, Unnamed Mercenary said:

 

A little off-topic, but we totally have that happen. Here, even. (Well, not this thread in particular.) ...but that tends to happen more on the IC boards, like if something says semi-open/closed (basically the same IMO) or closed, where it'd make a bit more sense. (As opposed to IC threads clearly marked open which should imply public if the scene fits, etc).

 

That's more or less the analogy I was going for with the 'public thread' discriminator.  Closed/Semi-open threads are a a good analogy for a non-public RP venue.    AKA:  Ask first.  Open threads are akin to public RP venues.  AKA:  Hop in.
 

[Nevivi Nevi]

12 minutes ago, Erah'sae said:

 

That's more or less the analogy I was going for with the 'public thread' discriminator.  Closed/Semi-open threads are a a good analogy for a non-public RP venue.    AKA:  Ask first.  Open threads are akin to public RP venues.  AKA:  Hop in.
 

 

I think my beef at this point is "outdoors is public" when, to quote myself from earlier, open/closed is a function of the participants' wishes, not the location. You can have a closed RP in the middle of Ul'dah or an open RP inside a house. (Dunno why you'd do that in Ul'dah, but I mean, you could.)

 

I think also we're coming at this from two different views, where I'm thinking of events as a subset of out-in-the-world RP and you seem to be thinking of them as the primary form of it. Or something similar, that doesn't feel exactly right but I hope it gets the gist across. So we're kind of talking across each other, since we're not actually addressing the same thing. (Yet another thing to word better in the second draft.)

[Erah'sae]

5 minutes ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

 

I think my beef at this point is "outdoors is public" when, to quote myself from earlier, open/closed is a function of the participants' wishes, not the location. You can have a closed RP in the middle of Ul'dah or an open RP inside a house. (Dunno why you'd do that in Ul'dah, but I mean, you could.)

 

I think also we're coming at this from two different views, where I'm thinking of events as a subset of out-in-the-world RP and you seem to be thinking of them as the primary form of it. Or something similar, that doesn't feel exactly right but I hope it gets the gist across. So we're kind of talking across each other, since we're not actually addressing the same thing. (Yet another thing to word better in the second draft.)

 

I think you've missed where I concede that private is not just "inside your house" but not in an active public venue.  To quote myself from earlier today.... "Out in the field alone is not a public venue" referring to recent reply to Faye's small group scene out in the wilds.

 

AKA: Don't expect a scene to be private RP if you start in a group of other people.

 

If you're in the Drowning Wench with other people there, it's public.  If you're in a back alley in Ul'dah with just your small crew (I think I mentioned that before).  That's not a public scene.  It's just you and your group.  

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Erah'sae

[Nevivi Nevi]

4 minutes ago, Erah'sae said:

 

I think you've missed where I concede that private is not just "inside your house" but not in an active public venue.  To quote myself from earlier today.... "Out in the field alone is not a public venue" referring to recent reply to Faye's small group scene out in the wilds.

 

AKA: Don't expect a scene to be private RP if you start in a group of other people.

 

If you're in the Drowning Wench with other people there, it's public.  If you're in a back alley in Ul'dah with just your small crew (I think I mentioned that before).  That's not a public scene.  It's just you and your group.  

 

 

 

 

Then we're just not agreeing I guess. I maintain you could do a closed scene in the Wench. You might have to functionally ignore a fair number of people to do it, and party chat or tells would obviously be better than public, but it's still possible. Fun? A good idea in /s? Eh, probably not, I wouldn't do it personally, but if someone really wanted to do it they're still not obligated to entertain joiners because nobody's actually obligated to entertain joiners any further than they want to. Location still doesn't mandate that it has to be open RP.

 

Actually, I could think of at least one hypothetical scene that might contextually make sense: employees at the Wench goofing off after-hours. I think Discord or something would be a better venue personally for any of it but what I think doesn't dictate what someone else gets to do with their own closed RP.

 

Or if you actually were alone in the Wench with just your chosen RP buds, started a scene that for whatever reason hinged on the bar being empty, and other characters showed up in the middle, whether or not you acknowledge them ICly is up to you. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to decide that you like the flow of your scene how it was already and just keep going as you were.

[Erah'sae]

31 minutes ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

 

Then we're just not agreeing I guess. I maintain you could do a closed scene in the Wench. You might have to functionally ignore a fair number of people to do it, and party chat or tells would obviously be better than public, but it's still possible. Fun? A good idea in /s? Eh, probably not, I wouldn't do it personally, but if someone really wanted to do it they're still not obligated to entertain joiners because nobody's actually obligated to entertain joiners any further than they want to. Location still doesn't mandate that it has to be open RP.

 

Actually, I could think of at least one hypothetical scene that might contextually make sense: employees at the Wench goofing off after-hours. I think Discord or something would be a better venue personally for any of it but what I think doesn't dictate what someone else gets to do with their own closed RP.

 

Or if you actually were alone in the Wench with just your chosen RP buds, started a scene that for whatever reason hinged on the bar being empty, and other characters showed up in the middle, whether or not you acknowledge them ICly is up to you. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to decide that you like the flow of your scene how it was already and just keep going as you were.

 Sorry for the long quote.  I'm not very good with the mobile client.

 

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree about the Wench.

 

You are correct, there is no requirement to entertain anyome regardless of locale.  

 

It's more a situational thing?  The only issue  I see with folks using common public locals for closed private RP is you're likely to get a goid bit of unwanted walkup RP that would just cause stress for all parties involved.  

It also kind of denies use of the area to others.

 

An aside, one nifty thing about this game is there are a lot of customisable set pieces for RP that requires certain locales between housing, private rooms, and apartments, so if you need an empty bar, chances are one can be made or found.

 

I should probably resurrect the publicly accessible venue list we used to maintain with the calendar.  I know I still see a bunch of them advertised regularly.  Something like that could help with avoiding style conflicts.

 

 

 

[Nevivi Nevi]

All good, mobile client's kind of a great big bag of not particularly useful. About half my posts here have been via mobile and cutting the quotes up from some seriously long posts has not been fun.

 

It's totally situational. That's basically what I've been saying, or at least what I've meant to be saying (what I've actually been saying has had super varying mileage as I've had to translate from irritation at the situation to coherent words).

 

Also the venue list was awesome and I think that'd totally be worthwhile, or maybe work out some kind of a replacement system with the clubs here? I could see that working if there were a common way to tag them, but I'm kind of a noob at this site and this also isn't super pertinent to the topic...but more venues known to more people is always a good thing in general.