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(03-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?
I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.
(03-02-2015, 05:09 PM)sforze Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:04 PM)Caspar Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 04:59 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.
It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.
^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.
I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.
I think it really is a kind of 'go with your gut' thing that varies from player to player. There are certain behaviors that I pick up on in other players that sometimes just gives me a really bad feeling, or their IC shittiness is pretty transparent in some way that sets off the alarm bells. It's difficult to explain to other people, but I usually just move with what my instinct tells me and stay away from people who set it off. There really isn't a 'one size fits all' approach for it, you just kinda go with what feels right to you and what makes your own experience better. :>
(I wasn't referring to you explicitly earlier, btw, to be clear)
No problem. I wanted to be a bit more clear and it ended up being a useful post anyway. I appreciate your input regardless.
I think in general this is the only approach that can work. If you are concerned about rp with people who might bother you, the risk of avoiding rp unintentionally with people who might be all right in the end is an unavoidable but worthwhile sacrifice, I think. It'd be nice if everyone could play in a way that makes everyone generally satisfied with the result, but this is the internet.
(03-02-2015, 05:11 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?
I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.
What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?
(03-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: [ -> ]Does that make sense?
Being a woman or man doesn't usually make any difference in levels of how believable RP is from being a female or male character respectively. At least to me. I think wish fulfillment might be a thing, but certainly not the only thing or even the biggest one.
Yeah, it makes sense and you're definitely adding something to the discussion. Also, wish fulfillment doesn't JUST exist when you're RPing across genders. You can make a character that's about wish fulfillment that is your own gender.
I'm not saying any of these things have to be problems, just that they CAN make things tricky and we should be aware of them.
(03-02-2015, 05:13 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:11 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?
I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.
What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?
You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just making the assertion that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the socially-constructed experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.
(03-02-2015, 05:15 PM)Desu Nee Wrote: [ -> ]Man, it's like I never left Tumblr. I still await the day a MMORPG let me fulfill my dreams to be a trans-faekin Apache Helicopter.
You may have left Tumblr, but Tumblr has never left you.Â
It has always been beside you, through all your triumphs, your tragedies, your highs and your lows, waiting for the moment you would turn and notice it again.
And in that moment it would say, "Reblog."
(03-02-2015, 05:16 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ]You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just getting to the fact that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.
I'm on the other side of the fence though. I'm a woman who almost exclusively RPs straight men, but I hardly know what it's like to be a man IRL. However, I don't think being the gender and experiencing what they have in the roles of society would really make either side better at writing and RPing their characters. Quite often, I've had people express surprise that I am a woman after rping with one of my characters because I'd like to think I RP a pretty convincing man.
Am I at an inherent disadvantage in your eyes because of my sex?
(03-02-2015, 05:16 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:13 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:11 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Verad Wrote: [ -> ]Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?
I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.
What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?
You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just making the assertion that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the socially-constructed experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.
Frankly, your argument applies to any specie but human. How I, a human, can rp something like an Elezen without first hand knowledge of it's culture, experience, society, and societal pressures, as well as the natural tendencies and relationships with other species?
A character is, before gender or sex, a person. A person with dreams, hope and personality and that's what fundamentally makes a character. A RP is also a form of escapism, and maybe someone feels good playing a girl, maybe he identifies as a female more, and no one should have the moral ground to say he lacks the "experience".
Heck, by that argument no one here can play any specie in Eorzea, we lack the "first hand experience"
TL;DR It's a character. It's a rp. Matters of gender and sex of the player shouldn't even be considered, only his quality and experience as a RPer.
(03-02-2015, 05:21 PM)Desu Nee Wrote: [ -> ]
Show Content
Spoiler'd for length
Frankly, your argument applies to any specie but human. How I, a human, can rp something like an Elezen without first hand knowledge of it's culture, experience, society, and societal pressures, as well as the natural tendencies and relationships with other species?
A character is, before gender or sex, a person. A person with dreams, hope and personality and that's what fundamentally makes a character. A RP is also a form of escapism, and maybe someone feels good playing a girl, maybe he identifies as a female more, and no one should have the moral ground to say he lacks the "experience".
Heck, by that argument no one here can play any specie in Eorzea, we lack the "first hand experience"
TL;DR It's a character. It's a rp. Matters of gender and sex of the player shouldn't even be considered, only his quality and experience as a RPer.
I believe the point is more that such players are at an inherent disadvantage playing such characters, and it tends to show (quite a bit) in their RP.
However, you are right to point out that this applies to
all aspects of roleplaying, not just gender. That being said, the comment that triggered this was someone saying they could not play someone of the opposite sex, hence this whole tangent.
I, for one, firmly believe that you don't need first hand experience in order to role-play a concept convincingly. You do, however, need to do research. That's the important part, especially if you're dealing with something controversial or sensitive.
Even if you're not, it just adds much more depth to role-play by taking the time to invest in expanding your own knowledge along the way. If someone role-plays a sailor they don't have to have first hand experience but I'd roll my eyes if they didn't know what port and starboard meant.
(03-02-2015, 05:28 PM)Presidio Wrote: [ -> ]Well, I'm done here, this is really disrespectful to the discourse.
Don't let it discourage you. It's always great to have a debate with a bit more depth to it than '
wat is ur chars favrit colur'. Just make use of tunnel vision and respond to the replies that appeal to you and ignore those that don't.
Off topic but still a valid point to the thread: Is the RPC truly the proper place for such a discussion?
Personally, I do not think it is.
If I understand the original intent of the thread, it was to discuss why there are seemingly more female characters in RP than male characters. My thought on it? People RP what they want to RP. Why not leave it at that? There is certainly a better place to discuss the nature of this topic than a role-playing forum.
An interesting discussion at first, before some fanatics with backwards logic had to ruin it.
A good roleplayer will roleplay a good character, regardless of their gender behind the screen.
A bad roleplayer will roleplay a bad character, regardless of their gender behind the screen.
I haven't really seen such a strange ratio you speak of, until you go as people have said, the Miqo'te. But at least its proportionate to lore, as others have already said.
Sorry to keep echoing about.
I just believe, as a RP Forum, and RP beings a means of escapism of the pressure and regulations of real life, the discussion of gender and sex over a character was kinda pointless, everyone has a reason to RP, even as the opposite sex, and while some don't do their justice and are the CATGIRLS ARE THE TRUTH Circle, mostly everyone I met in this community are competent rpers, some rping since 1987.
So, the discussion of Gender here simply isn't as constructive as other places like Tumblr. Also, regarding Tumblr jokes, everyone needs humour once in a while, dear. But then again
Professional Thread Derailer, so dunno, maybe I am a shitlord.
I just want to be my true self...
![[Image: boeing_ah_64a_apache_l3.jpg]](http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/boeing_ah_64a_apache_l3.jpg)
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