Hydaelyn Role-Players

Now you may be wondering why I'm asking here and not on some other forums. I'm not 100% sure myself but I'm not about to go tackle Coil neither since I hear that's where the best of the best are and they expect you to be the best of the best too. I'll just be the WoD runner that I am yeah...

Maybe cuz the time I first tasted endgame content left a bad taste in my mouth when everyone was il100something while I was a i48ish pleb tanking and losing aggro on fucking WP and don't wanna taste that again.

Nah, I just want ask a few questions and run a diagnostic on my thought pattern whenever I'm tanking stuff on Kurt. I mean I got him to i105 and I feel great now that I don't get yelled 99% of the time(for losing aggro you nub) especially since they put back ilevel caps. 

Suppose I'm not the MT for any given run and delegated to OT. Wooh!

-Should I have Defiance on or off? Thing is even if I'm not the MT in a run I still have Defiance on for the crit boost as well maintaining an orange aggro level just in case the MT dies so I know the Aggro can easily shift to me with just an overpower or so. Well you get the question, Defiance on or off? Crit boost or flat DPS? Also Unchained. 

-Let's say the MT is a PLD, am I doing it right by simply going Storm's Eye essentially 90% of the time and just keep refreshing Storm's Path(because I think the PLD needs more mitigation) and Fracture or should I just go Storm's Eye 100% of the time because the other two might just waste my TP anyway. 

-Should I be asking for goad or just auto-attack until my TP regenerates?

-Berserk should be popped when exactly? I mean I pop it when I'm like stupidly low on TP but should I be popping it earlier?

Suppose I am the MT because some genius thought it would be smart to put a i105 nub as MT. 

-Overpower>Flash>Overpower>Flash>Overpower>Flash>Overpower after I do a Tomahawk to grab the mob that is and sometimes the mob after it. Thoughts? This is under the condition that Infuriate is on CD and I just used a Steel Cyclone prior to the encounter. Question is, am I overpowering too much or am I overpowering too little?

-Popping CDs when I'm at like 50% HP or grabbing more than 1 mob group at a time? Or do I just hit those CDs every time they go off CD?

-Provoke, do I lob a hawk at the enemy if he's distant or Holmgang his ass to me? On the one hand lobbing birds at it is practical, on the other being scorpion is Kool too. 

-Is it practical to slot in a Fracture in between my BB/SP combos just to boost DPS or should I keep my eyes on the prize and keep smacking the thing to keep aggro? 

-On the cross class front, Convalescence..do I even need it with all my lifesteal? Not that I have any other cross class to take.

-Thrill of Battle, when's a good time to pop it? I usually do mine when I hit like 30%ish HP. 

-Berserk should be popped when exactly? I mean I pop it when I'm like stupidly low on TP but should I be popping it earlier?

I'm by no means a good tank so my advice is probably all out of whack, but as far as multi-tank group content goes, my rule of thumb is if I'm not MT, I just ensure that next to my name in my party list is a little number 1 on the boss's threat, that way if the MT drops he goes to me and I can pick up the slack until either the MT gets him back or it dies (usually the latter). To that end I start an engagement in Defiance, then tick it off once I've gotten a good head of steam above my party. And I'm partially OCD so I never tick it off if I have any Wrath built up until I get to 5 and then use Inner Beast or something. But I would say if you're not MT to not have Defiance on all the time, because the crit boost doesn't really make up for a 20% flat damage cut. If you're in Defiance, use Unchained whenever it's up, basically.

As for Storm's Eye/Path, when I'm not MT I usually use those if I don't have to play threat catch-up against my party, though I usually stick to ....names...the green one unless either there are no NIN or other WAR that are keeping up the pink one since you can only have one debuff on at once and it feels like a waste to keep fighting over whose it is. Me I always keep Fracture on no matter what.

When it comes to TP, I usually don't find myself in the red on tank anymore, but I don't usually ask for Goad, just because of my own weird sensibilities where it makes me feel like a dick. If one of my friends is the NIN, fuck yeah I'll be like "give me TP, scrub" but otherwise I relax on my actual actions while keeping an eye on maintaining my threat.

Me, I don't ever Berserk. But that's what mainly makes me a bad tank.

I have to go to work so I don't have time for more, but only use Holmgang if you're about to die. Don't use it as a "Get over here."

This all depends on the kind of content you're doing.

Personally, I don't consider myself an OT when I roll in 24 mans. I'm an EMERGENCY tank (and it is sometimes necessary as last night's ST can attest ). So I do keep Defiance up and try to apply the debuff because PLD -> WAR in most runs I encounter - so you may as well help the things do less damage. It does less DPS overall, but you're not there to do top kek DPS. You're there to pretty much be a backup tank.

NINs will apply Dancing Blade so if you have 1 NIN out of 15 DPSes don't bother with Storm's Eye. With Combo it has 10 more Potency than Path but again - we're not there to top kek DPS and overwriting buffs about as stupid as e-peen threat fights.

I'll let other people field the questions because I am not a good tank. Except this one.

Typically, I'll pop Berserk as often as possible UNLESS I'm OT. Berserk is a surefire way to pull threat. You just do THAT much damage. I'll put Berserk on once the tank's out of possible threatsteal range. You'll learn to gauge that as you run but typically at 50% you can't pull threat from them unless they're that bad, and chances are if they are they will had lost threat a few times to DPS.

So I guess keeping it on almost always is effective then. Oh yeah, Chris, on the subject of Holmgang I only every use when I remember it's there sitting on Kurt's actions list. I mean I like being scorpion but I've only done that once because I panicked and hit that instead of provoke once upon a time. 

One quick question, on the subject of Paladins, were to I be put on Emergency Tank duty, which would be more effective for DPS purposes RoH or RB? I mean on the one hand that's like 2GCDs before I attain like 30 points more potency versus one GCD for 30 points less. Say I'm saving on TP, I should probably just stick to RoH regardless right?

One more thing is there like a cap for threat or can I throw as many OPs and Flashes, Steel Cyclones as I want and never have to worry about aggro every again?

I'll speak on my own personal experiences here, particularly for as many WoD runs as I've belted. I'm not sure I'm El Supremo Axe Tanker, but every little bit of info helps, non?

MT vs. OT--most of the time I land myself in an OT situation in WoD. Absolutely cool with that. For the most part I do run with Defiance on just in case there's an issue or if I know there's parts of the fight that require me to herd adds, but for some fights I tick Defiance off to help give up more deeps, like against the Five-Headed Dragon, for example. Defiance in OT is largely situational for me, but if there's a fight where one MT and no add herding is needed, then I turn it off.

When I do run on Defiance as OT, I alternate between the Path and Eye rotations to keep up the debuffs and deal out a steady run of damage without generating a lot of threat. I've even fired off Inner Beast shots after I hit five Wrath stacks simply for the sake of personal habits as well as offering up a nice, meaty hit. Plus, I personally just enjoy the animation. XD

MT'ing rotation for me generally looks like Tomahawk>Flash>Overpower>Threat rotation>Flash as my starter if I'm facing a single target, or Infuriate>Tomahawk>Steel Cyclone>Flash>Overpower as my starter if facing a group. Cooldowns tend to be, again, a situational thing, but my most abused tend to be, in order of clicking:

• Thrill of Battle
  
• Foresight
  
• Vengeance
  
• Convalescence (usually paired with Bloodbath)
  
• Awareness
  

Holmgang and Berserk I hardly ever use unless there's an "Ohshi--" situation. Often I hit the two together if I need to burn things down as fast as possible before I fall over dead...and ideally I'll also have my Convalescence+Bloodbath combo to sort of try and stem the tide.

I don't use Unchained very often if at all...which I think is another thing that makes me a bad Rawrior tanker. Overall, though, I think I'm doing reasonably well. I haven't been directly bitched at, so I assume I'm doing something right. Bear in mind, though, that I also don't have a golden Magitek Armor either...so take that as you will. XD

Wow I feel like an idiot...I forgot Holmgang is my God Mode skill....

I'll answer the more general questions because I'm not a warrior.

Defiance: If the fight has no adds, don't bother with Defiance as an off-tank. Should things go pear-shaped and death causes you to be the main tank suddenly, go ahead and pop it. If you're going to be holding adds for any meaningful amount of time, go ahead and pop it, but drop it once they're dead. There's no reason to reduce your damage and increase your HP if you're not taking damage to begin with.

Slashing Debuff: There's a lot of debate as to whether the WAR or the NIN should be using the slashing debuff. WAR will have the chance to apply it sooner in a fight due to NIN opening (or should be, elitism plug goes here) with their DoTs, but as long as someone does it it doesn't matter. If there's no NIN because you're doing Trials or something, then yes, debuff that target.

Goad: Tricky. If there are other physical DPS in the ground and you're only the OT, it's likelier than they'll need it more than you. If the party comp is just PLD WAR NIN BLM BLM SMN SCH WHM then feel free to ask for it.

Berserk: As an Off-Tank, treat Berserk like a DPS cooldown. Hit it as often as possible, try to not let it get clipped by invulnerable phases (Titan jumps, transitions, etc).

Defensive Cooldowns: I use mine sooner rather than later due to the effective-HP thing. If you have exactly 10,000 hit points, popping a 20% reduction at full health gives you 12k hp to tool around with. Hitting that same buff with 5,000 health "only" gives you 6k effective HP.

Convalescence: It's off-GCD, and it's just icing on top of Defiance's bonus. Use it in conjunction with your "oh shit I'm dying" reflexes.

Fracture: Controversial on paper. It'll devour TP, it's only ever a DPS increase if you get the full duration on the DoT and even then, the increase is almost inconsequential (last numbers I looked at showed an increase of 7 DPS over an entire fight). Some swear by it, some never bother, everyone's got their reasons.

Overpower: Overpower is too damn good. It outscales Flash by miles due to Berserk buffing it, and with an adequate weapon you might not even need to shuffle in Flash. Overpower > Overpower > Begin weaving your combo amongst targets.

Threat: When maintanking, don't put too much stock into your threat lead (doubly true if you're tanking a dungeon or am the sole tank). Yes, you want to be the top threat person, but as long as you're ahead it doesn't matter by how much. Feel free to try and maximize your damage while not dropping hate - WAR is a tank, yes, but they can put out pretty outrageous damage compared to their paladin counterparts.

(03-10-2015, 08:11 AM)Ice Cream Sandwich Wrote: [ -> ]Wow I feel like an idiot...I forgot Holmgang is my God Mode skill....

I actually dislike Holmgang compared to Hallowed Ground. I mean, the word is real neat but... all it does is keep you from dropping below one HP while Hallowed straight up prevents all damage for a while. It just... isn't as good a panic button.

I say this mostly because I've had more than one Warrior try to do a big trash pull and use Holmgang like Hallowed Ground. So they're being hit by 20 different things and I can't really heal them back up to somewhere safe before it drops and the numerous different beasties polish them off.

... Then again, the most recent example of this was a Nexus Warrior who was trying to speedrun an instance with two DPS that had never been there before. And pull bosses before the DPS were close enough to get inside the barrier, blaming them for being too slow. Oh, and tried to tell me how I should've a.) been spamming Adlo, and b.) had Aetherflow stacks ready for him pulling everything past the first spout all at once and not using any cooldowns beyond Holmgang.

... I may be a bit bitter.

Wait Hallowed Ground is crossable?

Oh, no no no. I'm just comparing skills. And pointing out the difference between the two. I think Holmgang is perfectly fine as a panic button against a singular or small group of enemies where recovery is POSSIBLE from that 1 HP. It is not Hallowed Ground, however, so I'm advocating not treating it like it is.

(03-10-2015, 08:17 AM)Gegenji Wrote: [ -> ]I actually dislike Holmgang compared to Hallowed Ground. I mean, the word is real neat but... all it does is keep you from dropping below one HP while Hallowed straight up prevents all damage for a while. It just... isn't as good a panic button.

I'm in the same mental camp. Hallowed is such a nicer little "turtling" skill than Holmgang...which is why Holm is hardly ever touched on my bar.

the Nako'li patented lazy tank method.
Single target mtstyle yo.
Infuriate
Tomahawk
Unchained
Heavy swing
Beserk
Rest of rotation
Repeat Rotation. And /only/ aggro rotation unless you have a decent lead and there are no warriors.

Pop beserk when it comes off of cooldown. Macro it so that your healers can be ready with esuna/leeches. 

Defensive cooldowns to be used when you see a particularly powerful attack in the cast bar. (Try to combine them with inner beast for that extra mitigation.

I wanna be mt aoe aggro
Tomahawk
Unchained (if up. If not, beserk)
Overpower
Beserk (if not used)
Overpower
Repeat down to 500tp
Wait 2/3 ticks As appropriate to ensure you dont go below 500 on next one.
Overpower.

The 500 rule is simply one from running dungeons. A reserve for if you aggro patrolling mobs etc.

Well I guess I only ever use Holmgang because I wanna be Scorpion. I don't remember a single time where I've oh wait there was that one time I kinda used it to cheat death and then clutch kill the Cloud of Darkness....man that was a moment of pure panic where I popped everything even though everyone was saying drop it and restart. Popped a good chunk of my cool downs...Thrill of Battle and Bloodbath come to mind then Foresight before I began wailing on it with the BB combo praying to god almighty I finish this then popped my LB....I was rewarded with my WoD chest and it was a good day. 

And everyone dropped their pants. 

But that was the 2nd time I've had to use Holmgang....I think it was Holmgang...

Anyway Holmgang<Hallowed Ground as a panic button then? But it's my only panic button...but that's why I'm leveling Nah and shifting Kurt to be a Machinist...after he 50s the monk.

Yea, Holmgang is your only panic button and its useful depending on the situation. I think what Gegenji was advocating is that it can't or shouldn't be used the same way as Hallowed. :3

Hallowed, for example, I've used as another defensive cooldown when all others have been exhausted and I'm about to eat a really big punch from a giant naked rock dude.

Holmgang I used when I was the last one standing during the last boss of WP. I still died, but I VERY NEARLY had the King dead. :<

So it is an "Ohshitohshitohshit" button than a panic button or even something to help mitigate damage. I would guess that HG would have a lower CD than Holm's 3minute one if it could pass off as a Defensive CD? Or did the point fly over my head again?