Hydaelyn Role-Players

It's been ages since I've done CNJ but doesn't whatsherflake raise some nobody and get chided for it?

My own headcanon for Raise comes from D&D fluff. At 0HP you are not dead but you are dying. Without being tended to, you will expire from blood loss or shock or whathaveyou. Raise as a spell is functionally picking you back up from that fate, hence the "Brink of Death" debuff that comes with it. You are punch drunk and not operating at 100% capacity because holy shit you almost just died for real.

Indeed I don't remember where or who it was that said it, (gamerescape lore train? forum post?), but I remember the devs commenting that Raise wasn't raising someone from the dead but from (as Warren has put it) the Brink of Death. They are just at the cusp of dying but not dead yet cause they were KNOCKED OUT not dead.

(03-17-2015, 09:04 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: [ -> ]It's been ages since I've done CNJ but doesn't whatsherflake raise some nobody and get chided for it?

My own headcanon for Raise comes from D&D fluff. At 0HP you are not dead but you are dying. Without being tended to, you will expire from blood loss or shock or whathaveyou. Raise as a spell is functionally picking you back up from that fate, hence the "Brink of Death" debuff that comes with it. You are punch drunk and not operating at 100% capacity because holy shit you almost just died for real.

There were like 'NUOH SILFEE DON'T DO ET. U CAN'T CASTCH THE SNITCH AND RAISE HEEM. U WILL USE UR LIFE FOARCE AND DIE LIKE UR MUM (LOL)."

Since she wasn't borrowing from nature, Slyphie was using her own life force to heal -- and since raise was considered a powerful spell, it used quite a lot and the results were not good.

(03-17-2015, 09:08 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: [ -> ]There were like 'NUOH SILFEE DON'T DO ET. U CAN'T CASTCH THE SNITCH AND RAISE HEEM. U WILL USE UR LIFE FOARCE AND DIE LIKE UR MUM (LOL)."

(03-17-2015, 09:04 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: [ -> ]It's been ages since I've done CNJ but doesn't whatsherflake raise some nobody and get chided for it?

My own headcanon for Raise comes from D&D fluff. At 0HP you are not dead but you are dying. Without being tended to, you will expire from blood loss or shock or whathaveyou. Raise as a spell is functionally picking you back up from that fate, hence the "Brink of Death" debuff that comes with it. You are punch drunk and not operating at 100% capacity because holy shit you almost just died for real.

Basically how I see it too.

That about sums up what I've seen so far: "Conjuring is about borrowing from nature's power, because no person could do what conjuror's do without a mana pool so big you'd bolt out the sun!

So you borrow from nature.. and we  discovered *points to the spoiler*. It's bad if you don't learn that lesson, then you are doomed. In a way it was a cool way to see the reasons Conjurors do what they do.

Though now I am wondering if the drop in Aether/mana on the when one casts is the us poking nature and getting the effects, but in return we loose a little personal mana.

Also Little Miss What's her name doesn't Raise anyone.. (its interesting to see her be like NOOOO).

Can anyone briefly explain to me why thaumaturges get away with this without resulting in several posts that go off topic? I've only gotten as far as the level 20 or 25 healing quest. Never really played a thaumaturge past five or six.

(03-17-2015, 10:13 AM)K Wrote: [ -> ]Can anyone briefly explain to me why thaumaturges get away with this without resulting in several posts that go off topic? I've only gotten as far as the level 20 or 25 healing quest. Never really played a thaumaturge past five or six.

THMs draw off their personal aether reserves. Think of like a cup with water in it. Spells take some of the water, but after a while, you can fill up the cup again.

CNJ spells must use WAY more aether or something, or they tap into the life force directly, bypassing these aether reserves.

(03-17-2015, 10:17 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-17-2015, 10:13 AM)K'nahli Wrote: [ -> ]Can anyone briefly explain to me why thaumaturges get away with this without resulting in several posts that go off topic? I've only gotten as far as the level 20 or 25 healing quest. Never really played a thaumaturge past five or six.

THMs draw off their personal aether reserves. Think of like a cup with water in it. Spells take some of the water, but after a while, you can fill up the cup again.

CNJ spells must use WAY more aether or something, or they tap into the life force directly, bypassing these aether reserves.

I think it might be a combination of both? I mean, from my viewpoint it is easier to break something than to mend it. But, as I recall from a Sounsyy-post, THMs originally were able to animate the dead... which sounds suitably powerful. And let's not forget Arcanists' Physick is a heal using their own aether too. So there ARE examples of self-aether healing that doesn't seem to cause the same sort of trouble as the one presented in the CNJ story.

Then again, maybe that's why BLM started using outside aetheric energies. Trying to do something like a Flare on your own reserves would likely have the same impact as trying to Raise using your own energies. ... Yet ACN can Resurrect with no problems...

Really, I think the bigger question is what CNJ are doing so different from ACN who can do some of the same healing stuff with their own aether over needing to use outside sources.

I think it's a different way of reaching the same things. Conjury borrows power from the land and the elements to cause its various effects. Thaumaturgy borrows power from the user to create elemental effects. White Magic draws (I think, anyway) from deeper wells of the natural world to use Succor. Black Magic takes from those wells to devastating effect.

Arcanist can cast Physick, yes, but it's more similar to "Sacred Geometry" and channeling aether through ritualistic glyphs and design. It's possible that the reason they can raise at all is simply due to their arcane geometry meeting the requirements to again borrow those energies to have a similar effect.

/spitballing

Ooh Lore discussion!

So we've now moved onto:

 ACN, THM and what makes them different from CNJ's?

 Or with the Aether reserves?

A conjurer, a thaumaturge, a white mage and a black mage walk into a bar. The conjurer asks for a glass of water. The thaumaturge pulls out his own waterskin. The White Mage is friends with the bartender and asks for the clean water in the back. And the black mage takes a hammer to the casks and drips from the deluge with his hands.

And the Arcanist simply waits for his to be delivered, having mailed away for it last week.

(03-17-2015, 10:30 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: [ -> ]Ooh Lore discussion!

So we've now moved onto:

 ACN, THM and what makes them different from CNJ's?

 Or with the Aether reserves?

I'm gonna report/requote something Sounsyy wrote on this, since it provides a really good summary.

(01-01-2015, 02:09 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ]I'll begin with anyone can RP however they wish to... however, from a purely lore standpoint, it would be highly unlikely to become a master of all schools of magic. Also something to note, conjury is not the same thing as white magic. Thaumaturgy is not the same as black magic. The methodology of Arcanima is closely related to Scholar and Summoner, but also note that these are also three different magicks from three different time periods. So when you say you want to master all schools of magic, be aware that there aren't just three... there are closer to seven. Eight if you count the coming Astrologian, which we don't know much about yet.

Summoning was a magic practiced and perfected by the ancient Allagans 5000 years ago. It was likely the forefather of modern day Arcanima. Summoners would draw upon the absorbed spirit of defeated Primals of eld and conjure an essence or Egi of that Primal which had been bent to the caster's will.

Scholar, unlike its Summoning and Arcanima relatives is actually less a summoning art. Scholars created strong bonds with an Elemental-like creature called a Fairy or Fae. Also unlike Summoners and Arcanists, the Scholars of Nym focused on restorative magics and drew upon their own skills and the magicks of their Fae to cure their allies. However, after the plague befell Nym, the Scholars lost their ability to communicate with their Fae and evoke their magicks and Scholar was lost for the next 1600 years.

Arcanima is likely descendant from bits of Summoning and Scholarly magic. Like their predecessors, Arcanists draw and channel their magic through geometric shapes and patterns aided by specialized inks which amplify their energies. Using their own aether, Arcanists can call forth a Familiar called Carbuncle to aid them, likely left over from Summoning days.

Thaumaturgy is believed to be the original form of magic of the 5th Astral Era, close to 3000 years ago. Thaumaturgy draws from the caster's own aether and focuses the spell through a gemstone medium to cast. Over the centuries, Thaumaturgy took a dark turn and became a magic focused upon death. Skilled wielders of the magic were able to do incredible things, such as return people from Thal's realm. When Ul'dah and Sil'dih rose from the ashes of Belah'dia, Thaumaturgy took on the duality of the Traders, Nald'thal, and became the study of life and death. The religious Order of Nald'thal was formed with the belief that by using Thaumaturgy to more deeply understand Death, they might better be able to understand and appreciate Life.

Black Magic, by contrast, is actually a technique, not a true form of Magic. In the early years of the 5th Astral Era, a young Magi named Shatotto wished to further the limitations of Thaumaturgy, but was ultimately unable to perform the magicks she wished to due to her own limited aether supply. So she devised a method to curb the Lifestream and draw upon the aether of the planet instead of her own. This technique was coined "Black Magic" as it killed the land around the caster, but it afforded Shatotto unlimited power and paved the way for the War of the Magi centuries later. By the time the War of the Magi broke out at the end of the 5th Astral Era, Black Magic was capable of many incredible feats - bringing down stars, animating inanimate objects, and tearing holes in our Physical Plane, opening a portal to the Void and drawing forth unimaginable demons upon the world. However, by the end of the War, Black Mages had drained the world entirely of its aether and had nearly killed the planet. Because of this unlimited destructive force, Black Magic was forbidden and strictly outlawed.

White Magic or Succor is the magic of the Elementals. Around the middle of the 5th Astral Era, it was gifted to the Amdaporians to balance the destructive power wrought by Shatotto's Black Magic. These Amdaporians were tasked with restoring what Black Magic destroyed. For many years, this balance persisted, but as Black Mages sought greater and more powerful spells, White Mages stretched the limits of their power and the War of the Magi broke loose, bringing irreparable harm to the planet and the Twelveswood. Furious, the Elementals summoned a great flood which washed the taint of the Magi from the planet and grew the Twelveswood up and around the lost city of Amdapor so that its magic would never be recovered. For 1000 years White Magic was lost to the world, until the Elementals birthed the Padjal race from the Gelmorrans and filled them with the blessing of Succor. These Padjal protected and restored the Wood with their power and lead the new Gridanians into an age of peace with the Wood.

Conjury is the youngest form of magic, born only 500 years ago during the time of Gelmorra. After the 5th Umbral Era had ended and the survivors made their way back to the Twelveswood, they found their way blocked by thick trees and angered Elementals. So the Elezen dug beneath the forest and lived in caves for a 1000 years, trying to make peace with the Elementals above and live within the Wood once more as they did in the time of Amdapor. Now, during this time, Hyur began flocking to Eorzea in great migratory waves, causing wars between the Hyur and Elezen races all across Eorzea. However, when the Hyur attempted to enter the Twelveswood, the Elementals forbade them egress as well. Looking past their racial differences, the Elezen of Gelmorra welcomed the Hyur with open arms. It is believed this act of goodwill and fellowship is what compelled the Elementals to reconsider their stance. The Elementals sent Moogles to communicate with the leaders of Gelmorra and teach them a way to communicate with the Elementals. The magic the Moogles taught the Gelmorrans became known as Conjury, the ability to manipulate the aether in nature using concentration and meditation. This magic birthed the first Hearers, men who could hear the will of the Elementals.

--------------------

So, taking all that, could one person learn to master multiple forms of magic, perhaps yes? But it'd be extremely difficult as each branch of magic is unique in its own way and in the case of some, diametrically opposed to another. In the case of Black Magic and White Magic, they are both forbidden and forgotten magicks that were created in opposition of one another.

As far as any of the ancient magicks go, they are all but lost to the world for many centuries. Learning one is probably fine, but learning multiple relies on the absolute crazy happenstance of finding out about the magic in the first place and finding someone to teach it.

If you want to do that, I tried to break down who would feasibly know about each of the ancient magicks:

Black Magic: Prelates and High Priests in the Order of Nald'thal would know about Black Magic but most would not be able to teach it. There are also some Beast Tribes which still practice Black Magic to some extent. If your character is friendly with beastmen, perhaps that could be used as an in for Black Magic.

White Magic: The Padjal are the only living users of this magic. You would have to learn from them and earn their trust. Elementals can also bestow the magic, but will only do so if you are judged pure and incorruptible of heart. The recent Lore Panel also suggested that there are others who may be trying to reclaim the lost Succor of Amdapor through nefarious means. This likely has something to do with the Lambs of Dalamud and the upcoming Amdapor Keep HM dungeon.

Summoning: The Sons of Saint Coinach know about the magic, but none of them really know how it works or how to teach it. The Ascians can and will teach Summoning, if you want your character to be involved with the Asicans.

Scholar: Military tacticians and scholars would probably know about the Scholars of ancient Nym, but a large part of a Scholar's magic is drawn from their Fae companion, so you'd have to find one of those as well.

Hope this helps! ^^;

(03-17-2015, 10:30 AM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: [ -> ]Ooh Lore discussion!

So we've now moved onto:

 ACN, THM and what makes them different from CNJ's?

 Or with the Aether reserves?

If it's alright with you then I am a little curious as to why Thaumaturges and Black Mages can get away with using their own reserves as though they have an infinite supply whereas Conjurers/White Mages(?) would be in constant peril if they tried the same.

Someone suggested that healing magic requires a LOT more aether than destruction magic but I don't see how that would make them viable in combat if they only had a limited amount of uses before they needed to rest for... however long. Unless they could actually last as long as a typical combatant had the stamina to continue fighting.

(03-17-2015, 10:29 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's a different way of reaching the same things. Conjury borrows power from the land and the elements to cause its various effects. Thaumaturgy borrows power from the user to create elemental effects. White Magic draws (I think, anyway) from deeper wells of the natural world to use Succor. Black Magic takes from those wells to devastating effect.

Arcanist can cast Physick, yes, but it's more similar to "Sacred Geometry" and channeling aether through ritualistic glyphs and design. It's possible that the reason they can raise at all is simply due to their arcane geometry meeting the requirements to again borrow those energies to have a similar effect.

/spitballing

That... could be it. THM and BLM is straight up using the aether raw, which is why the latter needs to TAKE in order to fuel its destructive capabilities. The geometric formulae that ACN use is more more... refining and focusing those energies first. Still, isn't the gem in a THM/BLM's staff supposed to do the same thing? Amplify the power of one's own aether?

Then again, maybe it's a bit of a moot point because ACN doesn't do either nearly as good as the others. Yes, it can heal and raise, but it only has Physick (and the decently-sized panic heal Lustrate that requires "preparation" in the form of Aetherflow stacks) while CNJ/WHM can do much larger heals on the regular (along with Benediction for a straight up, no muss no fuss full heal). On the flip side, it has the rather mediocre Ruin and a bevvy of damage-over-time effects for the offensive (with their Carbuncle/Egi also doing a lot of heavy lifting) compared to the swath of various "big hit" damaging spells THM/BLM gets.

So, really, Resurrection is the sole outlier in the ACN skillset, I think. I'm sure a CNJ using their own aether could spam basic Cures much like an ACN can Physicks... it just gets dangerous when they move to the bigger spells. So, unless there's something going on with that Sacred Geometry that's drastically reducing the user's aetheric usage, you'd think casting Resurrection would be just as dangerous on one's reserves as a Raise using one's own energy.

... Or they just wanted another class that could raise and didn't put much thought into the lore, despite the importance of Raise in the CNJ story.