So.. I was talking with a friend earlier in the day about Villain RP’s in FFXIV and it’s been brought to my attention through several viewings that a majority of those who associate themselves with the “Evil/Villain†Tag are mainly those seeking ERP.
Now.. I have no problem with ERP(sex) naturally occurring during the course of a plot, but when you actively search for it as the main purpose and reason that you created an evil character, that's where I had to draw a line.
The “Villains†I’ve seen so far in FFXIV are not villains but hookers, whores, and horny men who plaster themselves with being dubbed “evil†or against the good nature and will of the normal RP’ers of the game. People have been playing villains like all they do is have sex, rape, torture and kill. Well news flash.. they don’t. Serial Murderer’s and Sex Offenders do this.
You don’t go and watch Dark Knight to see Heath Ledger as the Joker have sex or kidnap and rape the leading lady (Which never happens but I’m using it as a reference scenario). You watch it because he’s a true Villain mastermind, casting away the influence that mob bosses, murderers, gang leaders, and the like hoard themselves over because they have little meaning to a true Villain. He does the things he does just because he gets a kick out of it while causing a little mayhem and chaos on the go.
This is a true Villain. Money, Power, Women; they do not influence a Villains agenda. Granted there are times when a Villain needs to unwind a little and get in their basic needs. This only serves to make them human/immortal/whatever.
Some Villains can even form attachments to certain objects or people to where it greatly affects their emotional state if something were to be done to these objects of their desire. This can cause great stress to a Villain and even make their plans falter or make it more difficult for them to enact what they had in mind for the hero player to walk into. Depending on the type of Villain, the plan to seek vengeance or turn the tables is and always will be different.
The types of Villains there are, are limitless. Your Villain could stick to the shadows of a tavern, always overlooking the hustle and bustle that makes its way through, monitoring potential threats or weakness’ of certain people in order to exploit them and making himself seem like the regular tavern grump whenever approached. Or your Villain could, on the outside, seem like the normal tavern fool getting his ass drunk and into fights - when on the inside he’s a mastermind using a display of weakness to get the better of his opponents.
However the common mistake I see people using, is thinking that engaging in sexual activity/rape is all Villains engage in. Villains need a purpose; a design that has them constantly out to meddle and foil the plans of those he’s deemed an adversary. Not to sit in the Quicksand all evening asking if you want to go back to his place/room to get a lil jiggy with it.
The Key to successfully RPing a Villain is to be surprising in your thought process. To create a unique back story as to why your character was born or came to be like this. It can be dramatic, focused on revenge, or be caused by a traumatic experience. There are also instances where a hero eventually succumbs to villainy.
But please… do not label yourself a Villain/Evil just because you engage in sexual activity or immoral acts with no plans to actually combat or devise a plot to IC'ly attack someone or meddle in their affairs to ruin their lives or what have you. And to those approaching Villains/Evil Associated people, do not ask us for ERP straight off the bat because you think that's all we do.
This topic is open for discussion on what is morally right and wrong with playing a character labeled as a Villain.
Personally I'm not going to try to regulate what people consider good villain behavior or not, because different people are seeking different things with their RP. For some the sexual aspect of villainy is all that's necessary and that's perfectly within their rights and when applied to their own personal stories within the world. Personally? It's not my cup of tea, but if someone were to present it in a way that catches my interest, I wouldn't mind it all that much.
I have a newer character who some could consider villainous in various aspects - but for now I'm focusing on slowly but surely building him up to see where he takes me. As it stands he's a jerk at present with something of a soft spot for women, but his propensity for thieving and occasionally for murder might push him down a more sinister path. If that happens, I will have to decide if he stays similar to how his is currently - only reacting to others when he does step out of line, or actually being proactive. However, regardless of what I decide - I'll have to be able to eventually find the right audience for what I want. If I'm not happy with it however, and chances are he's going to be that old curmudgeon sitting in various corners, then he won't ever be anything more than a bucket of snark given sentience. I much, much prefer my antaognists to invoke an actual sense of fear - even without outright setting up elaborate plots within a complex storyline. However, if I can't find myself capable of writing that myself then I simply won't. A poorly written villain is no fun for anyone.
Good villains aren't relatable. You wouldn't necessarily find their motivations understandable from your own point of view. They can often be remote and avoid interacting with players entirely. They don't need to be clever, and they don't need to be sneaky - brute force works just fine if you sell it right.
This is not sarcasm. I actually believe this.
Eh. People rp the way they want to RP. If that's how they envision their villains, that's how they envision them. If I personally don't agree with it, I just don't engage. I'm sure people have issues with the way I RP some aspects of my character or how others RP theirs, evil or not.
While your points are completely valid ways of RPing villains, sometimes people just envision something else. That's just the nature of RP in general.
As one of the resident "villain" RPers, I figured I would chime in with my two cents.Â
I agree with you on some points. There are many ways to play a villain, from the mustache-twirling baddie who's in it for the evil alone to the outwardly innocent criminal mastermind, and everything in between. However, there was one thing that I -do- disagree heavily with:
"Money, Power, Women; they do not influence a Villains agenda."
I have to object here, as someone who plays a largely hedonism-driven "villain" type. Xheja is a poisonmaker, but she continues to do it for money and power -- two things that allow her to live out her life as she wants it, unhindered. When she started, there -was- a sort of sadistic amusement there in it that urged her along for reasons. But now, that sort of dark desire to do harm to others is (mostly) under control, leaving the motivations of money, leisure, and status behind to keep her doing what she's doing at the detriment of others. Â So I think it's hard to say a blanket statement like "A villain is not motivated by anything but a desire to do evil" or some such.Â
That all said, I really agree with Cylin on not trying to pigeonhole what makes a "good" villain. There's too many types, motivations, methods and other factors. There will never be a good "one size fits all" villain because if you really think about it, who the "villain" is in a situation is all purely relative. And if a certain type isn't your cup of tea? Don't RP with them.
Isn't the stuff that makes a villain completely subjective in the first place? Morally there's nothing wrong with being 'promiscuous' as some would say, or sticking your dick in every circle-shaped hole you can find - at least to me. But Edda the character is a dumb kissless virgin so maybe yeah, she'll see a villainous aspect in characters that could care less when and where they spread The Thanalan Clapâ„¢. You said it yourself - the types of villains there are, are limitless. For some roleplayers, the sensual aspect of their roleplay is very important to them, and would want that kind of Pimpin' Meanstocking type character in their roleplay. And that's totally cool! Don't think that makes them any more or any less of a 'real' villain, or whatever. And if that type of roleplay doesn't ah, fill your hole, so to speak, just look elsewhere! Nothin' wrong with that.
But on the subject of heinous deeds, I see a true villain in the OP of this thread and must now endeavor to change my forum avatar god dammit.
(03-20-2015, 02:42 AM)Edda Wrote: [ -> ]But on the subject of heinous deeds, I see a true villain in the OP of this thread and must now endeavor to change my forum avatar god dammit.
Cactuar is and always will be a true villain!
Back on topic:
Everyone here has good points. But my problem is I'm seeing too much "villains" looking for ERP and that's what I'm basing a mass majority of my observations on. Maybe I'm not looking in the right corner of the world or I'm completely missing the Villain All Night Meeting Posters, but I'm a little unnerved when I see people shouting "Evil Villain LF ERP." or something along the context of that.
(03-20-2015, 02:53 AM)Ravij Wrote: [ -> ] (03-20-2015, 02:42 AM)Edda Wrote: [ -> ]But on the subject of heinous deeds, I see a true villain in the OP of this thread and must now endeavor to change my forum avatar god dammit.
Cactuar is and always will be a true villain!
Back on topic:
Everyone here has good points. But my problem is I'm seeing too much "villains" looking for ERP and that's what I'm basing a mass majority of my observations on. Maybe I'm not looking in the right corner of the world or I'm completely missing the Villain All Night Meeting Posters, but I'm a little unnerved when I see people shouting "Evil Villain LF ERP." or something along the context of that.
Well... maybe its just because you're looking in the Quicksand. I love the place, but lots of people are looking for ERP. Villains get lonely at night too.
I think what makes a good villain is what also makes a good hero - well roundedness. A Villian should be just as fleshed out as a hero would be, having motivations behind what they do beyond "I am evil".
That's it, really.
Even Hedonistic Villains can fall into under umbrella, provided they are fleshed out well enough. There are plenty of very good Hedonistic Villains in fiction and as long as they aren't pressuring or harassing me for ERP, they can be a hedonistic as they like.
(03-20-2015, 03:51 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: [ -> ]I think what makes a good villain is what also makes a good hero - well roundedness. A Villian should be just as fleshed out as a hero would be, having motivations behind what they do beyond "I am evil".
That's it, really.
Even Hedonistic Villains can fall into under umbrella, provided they are fleshed out well enough. There are plenty of very good Hedonistic Villains in fiction and as long as they aren't pressuring or harassing me for ERP, they can be a hedonistic as they like.
The problem is, as Verad says. Many villains aren't logical or have good motivations. That's part of what makes villains scary. They don't play by the same rules as 'normal' people.
I think many villains do have good reasons for why they're doing what they're doing. However I don't think it's a prerequisite.
They don't have to be "Good" motivations or even logical ones, but they should be beyond "This character is evil, therefore does evil things." Every character has a motivator for what they do, even serial killers do - even if we don't quite understand it on our usual morality path.
"The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can’t kill you are always subject to those who can." is a perfectly fine, well written motivation.
Villains should be treated with the same care as Heros. Three Dimensional.
I haven't observed this, but then again I don't erp.
I have villain npcs planned who generally are such due to grudges held or old political/social baggage leading them to extremism. Even the truly psychopathic ones are semisympathetic, in a weird way. I don't see much reason in sticking to what you suggested in the OP. My villains are typically villains of ideals or method.
erpfiends are a constant, i'm afraid. there's simply no getting rid of them. that being said, consider the following:
decent villain rpers are likely to either keep their villainy secret or play their villain in events rather than having them hang out in bars
there's exceptions to every rule (unless the rule is
"edvyn is always right"), but for the most part bar villains are fated to be thirsty for imaginary sex. if you found the villains you're criticizing in the quicksand, there's your problem.
another thing is that erpfiends are almost always louder, more obnoxious and more noticeable than other people hanging around a particular spot. in some cases, specific erpfiends become
infamous, on one hand making them a public laughing stock, but on the other attracting more imaginary sex. what many ridicule,
they wank to!
there could be a whole lot of villains you just haven't noticed because the ones that stand out are the erpfiends mentioned in the OP
sex has always been at the forefront of rp communities, and there's sadly no way of changing that. don't let it get you down, though! sit back, relax and bask in the warm feeling of knowing that
everybody sucks but you
Might I recommend these TVTropes pages:
The Sociopath
Serial Killer
Freudian Excuse
Within all of those there is certainly room for money, power, and women to be motivators for horrible things, as well as for relatability with horrible people. The Joker is only one variant of horrible person, and he falls under
Complete Monster. Not every villain is a complete monster. Many are not. Look at most of Batman's villain pantheon. A lot of them have triggering events that made them the way they are and direct their motives in relatable ways. Maybe not sympathetic ways, but understandable ones nonetheless. And some of them use sex, Poison Ivy coming to mind.
I currently play a villain who would rather chop her own head off than have sex. I have also played a villain who was much more the sort to be found in the Quicksand. Que sera.
Villains, more than any other characters, are hard to play right. I've seen them done wrong way too often to count: poweremoting tryhard edgemasters, wannabe masterminds who aren't as smart as they think, people who get defensive when you try to foil their actions or show they have consequences. And it often ends in an OOC argument as they whine they're the one who should win and complain they're being oppressed by people playing goody-two-shoes.
Between this, and the fact that I don't really like RP conflicts between PCs, I must say I don't like villain characters much. The few times I've seen them done right, they were in one of those categories:
1. Evil but not a villain - the character is a total jerk but doesn't actually do anything villainous. Not sure if it counts.
2. Amusing villain - they're either funny and silly or an over-the-top ham, but either way, fun to play with. Hard to take seriously, but fun.
3. Small-time crook - the character is a pickpocket, a swindler, or someone similar. They want your money, not your life, and will use trickery, not brute force, to get it.
4. Doomed villain - the character is played with the assumption that, in the end, they're going to lose. It's less like a player character and more an NPC antagonist in a story you're telling for other players.