Hydaelyn Role-Players

Splitting this off into another thread because it veers into off-topic territory and because I think the topic is one ripe for discussion.

(05-14-2015, 08:13 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-13-2015, 08:39 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: [ -> ]Suffers from pretty severe social anxiety. Avoids eye contact. This only makes her cuter.

...

Stutters. A lot. Can be very grating at times, but also very endearing at others. She doesn't have this problem with people she's close to.

These traits are kind of a pet peeve of mine. Seeing mental illnesses being played a "cute" is frankly kind of disturbing. However, a lot of people here have made sarcastic entries, so if yours is as well, kudos!

These are both things that I do IRL (though I don't stutter as much as I just go silent, which can be even more awkward).

I am personally of the view that this sort of thing is better classed as 'personality traits' than 'mental illnesses' (hence why I put 'mental illnesses' in quotes), because they are extremely difficult to overcome and change, pretty much in the same way trying to change your personality is extremely difficult especially if you are already a functional adult. I would also much rather people see these traits as endearing rather than as crippling defects that must be cured, because, obviously, the latter is much more damaging especially to my self-esteem than the former.

Indeed, I have seen comments on fictional characters with these traits (for example, Kunogi Ai from Shirobako) to the effect of 'she's insufferable!' and 'I can't stand her!', and that annoys me far, FAR more than those people who find her character to be 'cute' or 'adorable'. I have to wonder how devoid of empathy you have to be to see a character like that and want to shoo them away instead of help them and tell them everything is okay. That kind of mindset is exactly why that anxiety is so hard to overcome - just how many people, especially potential interviewers, are thinking in exactly that sort of way? It's absolutely terrifying.

At any rate, I find playing such characters to be therapeutic and fun, and if they get a positive reaction, it helps me feel better about my condition. Ironically, however, I usually play characters that are the exact opposite of my personality, which can be quite... challenging... at times. I have fun with that too, but it's a very different kind of experience.

I have to ask you - would you rather such traits be played as tragic and pitiful? Because, from my point of view, that's a far more negative track to take, especially if it's a "mental illness" that harms no one but the one who possesses it. I am still a perfectly functional adult, after all - I just can't function in social situations in the same way as others. I can understand why people would want to discourage me from being as asocial as I am - after all, there's a huge number of situations where being so leads to awkward situations and misunderstandings where they could be avoided - but at the same time, those problems can be avoided with understanding and care. And besides that, I live that sort of thing on a daily basis, so why would I want that to be reflected in my RP?

At any rate, a lot of this is subjective, and for me, personally, I would much rather like to be seen as 'cute' because that's a trait that I find valuable and endearing, as opposed to just 'awkward' and 'weird' as people tend to see me now. If, on the other hand, you see 'cuteness' as a negative trait, then we will never see eye-to-eye on this! That's just how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

All that said, there are many other 'mental illnesses' that I would agree should never be romanticized - however, I don't possess those traits myself, so I can't speak for anyone who possesses them. Still, I can see why psychopathy, anorexia, schizophrenia, and so on, would be things you would rather see addressed seriously and with proper respect, since they truly can be debilitating in ways beyond what even my own social anxiety can be. (People calling naturally skinny people - like myself - "anorexic", just because they can see ribs, is particularly grating with how terribly misleading it is.) But this is a very nuanced topic, as each trait is very different and possesses its own unique challenges.

It's all very interesting, really. Do you roleplay any characters with traits that can be classed as 'mental illnesses'? If so, how do you treat them, and how would you rather they be addressed? If not, how do you deal with other characters that do? I would imagine that this is something most RPers have had to deal with at one point or another, simply because so many RPers play characters with traits that qualify as such. Which makes sense, really, since these are qualities that help make people interesting relative to 'normal people' (and really, does such a thing even exist?).

This is a very subjective topic.

(05-14-2015, 09:34 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: [ -> ]I am personally of the view that this sort of thing is better classed as 'personality traits' than 'mental illnesses' (hence why I put 'mental illnesses' in quotes), because they are extremely difficult to overcome and change, pretty much in the same way trying to change your personality is extremely difficult especially if you are already a functional adult. I would also much rather people see these traits as endearing rather than as crippling defects that must be cured, because, obviously, the latter is much more damaging especially to my self-esteem than the former.

I'm just going to say that pretty much fits the definition of "mental illness." Like it or not, it's a part of you that's been ingrained into your personality and being and that's a difficult to change. Overcoming mental illness is not easy. The line between "personality" and "illness" is drawn when something becomes objectively debilitating to your life and brings pain to you and those around you, and makes it difficult to see to your health and function as a member of society. Being a little shy =/= social anxiety if it doesn't bother you and/or if you weren't actually properly diagnosed.

Anyway, like most things in writing, if you want to do it effectively, it's all about balance. If you're trying really hard for others to find your character "endearing," you'll probably just annoy them. Plus, as someone who suffers from anxiety and other mental illness irl, I can easily understand why some people might not find it "endearing" at all to begin with. Sure, a stuttering, blushing, shy character sounds cute on the surface. The reality of actual social anxiety, however, is not the least bit cute, glamorous, or endearing.

On the other hand, though, no one likes a woobie, so trying really hard to get people to pity your character also may not be the best choice. You should focus more on how you want to play your character, not so much on how you want others to receive and treat him/her. Ultimately, trying to railroad other role-players into how they should feel and think about your character will likely annoy them.

I don't plan to play a character with social anxiety (as I have it mostly IRL and somewhat online, too), I don't know if I'd consider it a "mental illness" though, as some people would, as I've never once heard it referred as such until just a few minutes ago. However, I can understand where people are coming from, finding characters like that "annoying", I hate myself for being that way, in fact I'm annoyed at myself, but when I see someone else like that (namely females), I find them cute, and I honestly want to just cuddle up to them and tell them everything's gonna be alright.

I tend to show, not tell. I wouldn't outright say 'My character has The Disorder', I'd rather let it seep into my narrative and allow the reader to make that conclusion.

With that said, I wouldn't consciously give my (roleplay) character a specified mental illness. I don't feel strongly to play those types of characters, and I wouldn't be confident in my ability to represent them accurately.

I've had experience in the past with dealing with muses who suffer from mental illness (mostly on Tumblr) and judging from my experience alone, a lot of them were given disorders as accessories. To make them appear more edgy, unique, misunderstood, etc. It really served no purpose to the character. Furthermore, it seemed like the people writing them had no idea what they were babbling about, and made it seem like the debilitating effects of mental illness made their character cute and appealing.

I can definitely see why people would be annoyed/turned off by those types of characters. Not because of the mental illness itself, but the way the person behind the character is portraying it. It can be overbearing, especially if it's being shoved in your face. (ie: Ooo Look at me! I suffer from The Disorder!)

Anyway, my advice to anyone considering making one:
Don't let the mental illness define the character. Do your research.

As long as it's done in a tasteful and educated manner, roleplaying characters with mental health woes is entirely fine, at least from the perspective of someone that deals with a small handful of them on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, there's a sizable amount of roleplayers who don't educate themselves first and end up turning a number of serious disorders into downright mockeries, fueling the never-ending cycle of misinformation and taboo mental health is plagued with in our modern society. This is what I have a problem with, not the former.

(05-14-2015, 09:45 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]On the other hand, though, no one likes a woobie

I do...

I have panic disorder. It is not a part of my personality, it is a mental illness. okay.

I really think it depends on the player's intention when they choose to roleplay a given character. For example, I've seen characters who list "a stutter" under a series of personal quirks, where the intention of the player was to make that stutter help the character seem more endearing or immature or amusing. I've also seen characters who list the same kind of stutter, however the purpose it served was the opposite—it highlighted real social ineptitude and personal aversions to public speaking and attention, due to whatever kind of backstory that character had (troubled childhood, trauma, etc). The way I interpreted that quirk for that character wasn't a static thing based on how I preferred to look at it; it was influenced by the rest of the character.

If you want to give your character some kind of illness, be it physical or mental, I think you need to approach it like you would any other trait. Give it context, keep it in line with the tone of your character, and present it realistically.

That said, mental illnesses are tricky. It's not easy to traverse them through a character if you don't already have a solid understanding of them and their effects on a person. They need to be done tastefully, or it has the potential of sullying your entire character because you missed the mark, either by going too overboard with it or not giving it the appropriate amount of weight. And that all, obviously, varies depending on the type of mental illness you're going with.

TBH, I am of the opinion that none of it should be romanticized. Shyness, as another person has said, isn't the same thing as social anxiety; nor are various ticks, and stutters, are which are symptoms of something deeper. If someone is to use that in their roleplay, I think it would behoove them to do some research first, as much as they can, to see some of the underlying causes, behaviors, attitudes, treatments, etc. The DSM, while a big massive tome of information on various conditions, it is first and foremost, for insurance purposes. And, it is constantly changing as the psychiatric community learns more, and is in no way a complete and exhaustive list. Them brains is complicated. 

(05-14-2015, 10:06 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: [ -> ]As long as it's done in a tasteful and educated manner, roleplaying characters with mental health woes is entirely fine, at least from the perspective of someone that deals with a small handful of them on a daily basis.

Unfortunately, there's a sizable amount of roleplayers who don't educate themselves first and end up turning a number of serious disorders into downright mockeries, fueling the never-ending cycle of misinformation and taboo mental health is plagued with in our modern society. This is what I have a problem with, not the former.

(05-14-2015, 09:45 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]On the other hand, though, no one likes a woobie

I do...

Yeah, speak for yourself. I'm quite fond of gratuitous tragedy.

I think there are some specific mental illnesses that are handled improperly due to misinformation, (DID pretty commonly) but I think that as long as you are aware it is not realistic and never try to pass it off as such OOCly, the narrative and emotional impact of your writing should outweigh its more unrealistic qualities. I don't like the belief that someone must be an expert and write as realistically as possible for every circumstance. If the writing happens to upset someone or offend them then correct it, but otherwise, I'd rather people have fun writing what they want to as long as it causes no real harm.

That and I don't think shyness is always synonymous with social anxiety disorder.

Here is my opinion and my opinion only. 

I suffer severely from bipolar disorder, OCD and anxiety; I suffer mildly from social anxiety and PTSD. My wife suffers severely from bipolar disorder, anxiety and social anxiety. We've both suffered from these mental illnesses since childhood. I say this so you know that I'm not just giving an opinion without history.

I think, as long as you know / research the mental illness, and don't use the illness as a joke, it's fine. It's really all based on the person, their character and the role-play. I think in some cases, a character's mental illness tendencies can be cute. My wife has played very shy, stuttering characters. I have played characters who have OCD tendencies. Just like a game character, anime character, etc. there are certain types of moe.

TL;DR: Know and or research, be respectful. 

P.S. I think having characters who have mental illnesses, are LGBT, are religious or non-religious, etc. make the game that much more fulfilling. It's important for there to be 'more of us' (take 'us' as you will, it's different for everyone) in the gaming world.

P.S.S. I just wrote this Tumblr post last night, after Jen and I finished an anime based around the struggle of suffering from social anxiety. I feel it's relevant. Ignore if you don't.

(05-14-2015, 10:05 PM)Max Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, my advice to anyone considering making one:
Don't let the mental illness define the character. Do your research.

^ Thisthisthis. There's certainly respectful ways to RP mental illnesses and I've seen it done and it's absolutely something I enjoy exploring in RP (even for catharsis), but picking and choosing certain illnesses based on "cuteness" is borderline fetishistic. There's no cute side to having disorders. The idea that someone might find my own mental illnesses "endearing" or "cute" greatly disturbs me and creeps me out.

Zyrusticae, you say you want to portray these illnesses as cute because the alternative is negative. But what about your character working through these issues in a realistic way? What about struggling to triumph over them with help from understanding friends who know that your character is so much more? Is that not more fulfilling than superficial pity? And more respectful?

And publicly dismissing mental illnesses as "personality traits" sort of undermines recovery and medical treatment. It's fine to say that for yourself, you define these as "personality traits," but know that many take comfort in the fact that their mental illnesses can be treated medically and therefore aren't a simple fluke of their personality.

(05-14-2015, 09:45 PM)Faye Wrote: [ -> ]

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spoiler'd for lengthI'm just going to say that pretty much fits the definition of "mental illness." Like it or not, it's a part of you that's been ingrained into your personality and being and that's a difficult to change. Overcoming mental illness is not easy. The line between "personality" and "illness" is drawn when something becomes objectively debilitating to your life and brings pain to you and those around you, and makes it difficult to see to your health and function as a member of society. Being a little shy =/= social anxiety if it doesn't bother you and/or if you weren't actually properly diagnosed.

Anyway, like most things in writing, if you want to do it effectively, it's all about balance. If you're trying really hard for others to find your character "endearing," you'll probably just annoy them. Plus, as someone who suffers from anxiety and other mental illness irl, I can easily understand why some people might not find it "endearing" at all to begin with. Sure, a stuttering, blushing, shy character sounds cute on the surface. The reality of actual social anxiety, however, is not the least bit cute, glamorous, or endearing.

On the other hand, though, no one likes a woobie, so trying really hard to get people to pity your character also may not be the best choice. You should focus more on how you want to play your character, not so much on how you want others to receive and treat him/her. Ultimately, trying to railroad other role-players into how they should feel and think about your character will likely annoy them.

Very fair points all around. I'm quite cognizant of this and do try to avoid coming across as overbearing.

I know that the way it impacts my life does make it cross the line from 'trait' to 'illness', but I cannot be appreciative of the way it stigmatizes it. I like to think that I can be encouraged to seek treatment without being made to feel like some part of me is "damaged", so to speak. My self-esteem suffers enough without that added baggage, you know?

This is especially pertinent when it comes to autism, which way too many people misunderstand and turn into a horrible nightmare when, most of the time, it's a mild brain specialization that may not necessarily impact the child's life in a profoundly negative fashion. I feel like a big part of the anti-vaccine movement was caused by this sort of unnecessarily harsh stigmatization, and wonder if, perhaps, things would be a lot better if we tolerated aneurotypical individuals more.

(05-14-2015, 10:06 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: [ -> ]I have panic disorder. It is not a part of my personality, it is a mental illness. okay.

I know, I know. I apologize if I downplayed the severity of such disorders.

(05-14-2015, 10:35 PM)industrythirteen Wrote: [ -> ]TBH, I am of the opinion that none of it should be romanticized. Shyness, as another person has said, isn't the same thing as social anxiety; nor are various ticks, and stutters, are which are symptoms of something deeper. If someone is to use that in their roleplay, I think it would behoove them to do some research first, as much as they can, to see some of the underlying causes, behaviors, attitudes, treatments, etc. The DSM, while a big massive tome of information on various conditions, it is first and foremost, for insurance purposes. And, it is constantly changing as the psychiatric community learns more, and is in no way a complete and exhaustive list. Them brains is complicated. 

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Additional Thoughts
That being said, there is a difference between whether a brain specialization causes one distress or not. To me, that's the big one. 

So, brain specialization. One of my buddies uses the term, based on what he'd been studying, and his observations, as a trained psychologist. He is also quite deceptively compassionate. He doesn't do the psychology thing professionally, but it does help him with his current occupation. It is 'brain specialization,' as he says, because chances are, I'm pretty good at some other things if I'm not particularly good at something else, and some of these things I or others might take for granted as it's part of daily living. I like it because it sounds pretty spot-on to me because while I, and many others, are often distressed by our conditions, and it can be very harrowing at the worst of times, I refuse to see that there is anything wrong with me, or wrong with others due to how we are wired. Ie, I won't label myself or others as broken, or bad, or incomplete, etc. It does not define me or others as a person. I also don't think there is really such a thing as 'normal.' I wouldn't know where to begin with that. And, it is only one piece. The brain is an organ of the body, and you'll get no disagreement from me that the brain does, indeed, get ill at times; and it is no less worse than any other condition the plagues the body. It is just the level of distress that it causes me in my life that becomes the part I have to deal with.

I quite like this post all-around. Very helpful, thank you. The bit about 'brain specializations' in particular informs a lot of my views on this sort of thing.

I believe it was this Ted Radio Hour episode that got me to really change my views on things typically considered mental illnesses, and how different things could be if we just treated them differently.

On the other hand, it's obvious that I've been somewhat downplaying how debilitating other disorders can be, and I can't discount that. Some of these things really are terrible in how much they affect your life. All the same, it's also important, I think, to realize that these things are not necessarily the fault of those who possess them or anything like that, and to not let these kinds of problems dramatically impact one's self-esteem, lest that lead to even greater problems down the line.

(05-14-2015, 11:14 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote: [ -> ]

(05-14-2015, 10:05 PM)Max Wrote: [ -> ]Anyway, my advice to anyone considering making one:
Don't let the mental illness define the character. Do your research.

^ Thisthisthis. There's certainly respectful ways to RP mental illnesses and I've seen it done and it's absolutely something I enjoy exploring in RP (even for catharsis), but picking and choosing certain illnesses based on "cuteness" is borderline fetishistic. There's no cute side to having disorders. The idea that someone might find my own mental illnesses "endearing" or "cute" greatly disturbs me and creeps me out.

Zyrusticae, you say you want to portray these illnesses as cute because the alternative is negative. But what about your character working through these issues in a realistic way? What about struggling to triumph over them with help from understanding friends who know that your character is so much more? Is that not more fulfilling than superficial pity? And more respectful?

And publicly dismissing mental illnesses as "personality traits" sort of undermines recovery and medical treatment. It's fine to say that for yourself, you define these as "personality traits," but know that many take comfort in the fact that their mental illnesses can be treated medically and therefore aren't a simple fluke of their personality.

Working through them would definitely be great and very interesting. All the same, I will also respectfully disagree - I think extreme personality traits and disorders can indeed make a character endearing. After all, a big part of why people love the Joker so much is because he's such a volatile cocktail of mental disorders that makes him a compelling character. I do take your point about fetishizing it, however - I don't mean to do that, and I certainly can agree that they should not be romanticized regardless. They might make for interesting characters and compelling stories, but IRL they're not nearly as much fun, which is part of why I like RPing this where the consequences are far less real.

And again, I do apologize for downplaying the severity of these disorders. It is ironic, considering my own disorder prevents me from obtaining gainful employment. I just try not to let it get to me too much, lest I also fall into depression, and who needs that?

Since it's part of the topic, I do think - again, just my opinion - that my mental illnesses are a part of my personality. I don't like them. I don't want them. But having them in my life in my past and now my present equal them being part of who I am. There are bad and good things that have come because of them. Their presence in my life has become part of my personality for better or worse. I see a psychiatrist and a therapist, and I do take medication. This is something I am actively working on. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a part of me, and an important part of me.

To me, they're separate from my personality. My Mental Illnesses make me someone I do not like. I'm very extroverted - my panic disorder makes it so I have to be an introvert sometimes. I tend to be somewhat touchy - my panic disorder makes it so I can't even be around people sometimes. I have other mental illnesses I'd prefer not to get into, as most people with Panic Disorder tend to have, and when they are rearing there ugly head that -isn't me-. I work really hard to keep my mental illness in check and am usually 90% successful, but it's a struggle and it's a fight every single day to work around my illnesses to be who I actually am.

Yes, They are a part of me, but no, they are not a part of my personality. And I refuse to let them define me.