So, honestly, I have very little knowledge on Ishgardian Lore and I have a lot to read up on and there are many wonderful threads that contain the information I seek here on the RPC. However, before I start I with the hours of reading I would like to ask for some suggestions on a few hot spots and with a very specific question.
Is it possible for one noble house to politically assassinate, or go as far as actually attacking another noble house in secret, for the advancement of their own personal gain or goals. I've read one thread referring to the social structure and such, so I've read that the Hyur Nobility is very thin and is only gained through, to put it frankly, having the right opportunities and busting their ass. There is also, supposedly, a lot racial tension; so would it be plausible to say that a Hyur noble house could be targeted or even lashed out on based on these tensions.
I'm looking at you Sounsyy, lol.
I would love input from anyone knowledgeable on this. Links are great, please feel free to give me anything you've got. Thank you!
Simply put, it's possible, but it isn't the kind of thing people kind of take as par for the course.
I mean, technically, anything is possible if you're not caught. Â I'm sure it's happened. Â However, Ishgard isn't a hotbed of murderous intrigue as far as assassinations go. Â By my understanding, it's more common to lie to gain power in an underhanded way. Â It's a lot more common to take credit for things you didn't do (which may involve murder) and to frame your enemies for heresy and have them killed in trials by combat.
That statement could be hyperbole, but grain of truth and all.
(10-06-2015, 04:56 PM)allgivenover Wrote: [ -> ]That statement could be hyperbole, but grain of truth and all.
That it could be, and it's not like the MSQ is technically representative of what all happens. Â It's good to take the flavor text with some grain of truth. Â So it might be more common than the story lets on to believe.
In any case, it's not likely that an Ishgardian assassination is going to bring on a chorus of lore nazi dissent. Â It's common enough to reference colloquially.
(10-06-2015, 04:16 PM)RiniKett Wrote: [ -> ]Is it possible for one noble house to politically assassinate, or go as far as actually attacking another noble house in secret, for the advancement of their own personal gain or goals. I've read one thread referring to the social structure and such, so I've read that the Hyur Nobility is very thin and is only gained through, to put it frankly, having the right opportunities and busting their ass. There is also, supposedly, a lot racial tension; so would it be plausible to say that a Hyur noble house could be targeted or even lashed out on based on these tensions.
I'm looking at you Sounsyy, lol.
This is certainly possible. I took some time to go through some old levequests and the MSQ to try to find some more out about the inter-house relations. What I found is that the four High Houses are fierce rivals, though the rivalry appears to be mostly "friendly" on the surface. However, there is easily enough evidence to suggest that certain individuals within the Houses may feel... less than enthusiastic of their peers and may resort to political assassination to gain greater favor with the Archbishop.
Dinner for Four Wrote:You return to Torsefers empty-handed, and he is thankful for your assistance. He tells you that the four High Houses are descended from the heroes who helped establish Ishgard. Although they are a formidable alliance in the face of their Dravanian enemies, they are quick to turn on one another when seeking political clout. He warns you to be careful, as making new friends may also result in new enemies.
That's not to say it's specifically happened in lore, but if it had, I would not be surprised. Also... judging by the way House Dzemael is depicted as being one of the more confrontational houses, I imagine that if any of the four houses had been politically ostracized in the past, it was likely Dzemael. Although, currently, House Haillenarte is in the dog house for their loss of the Steel and Stone Vigils as well as their inability to cultivate a successfully self-sustaining outpost in the Sea of Clouds. Meanwhile, House Fortemps is catching some heat for their outspoken views on the benefits of outsiders. While House Dzemael faces pressures from the other houses for their construction of Falcon's Nest.
Show Content
House Rivalries
Count Edmont de Fortemps Wrote:Granted, my decision will have raised eyebrows in the Vault and in the halls of the other High Houses. But so long as you continue your altruistic endeavors, I doubt my honored peers will feel moved to voice their concerns.
Alphinaud Wrote:By granting us patronage, House Fortemps has taken a tremendous risk. Until we demonstrate our worth to Ishgard at large, the count will face considerable opposition from his peers in matters great and small.
Artoirel Wrote:To the matter at hand, then: we will be assisting my esteemed compatriots of houses Durendaire and Dzemael. You are aware of our friendly rivalry, I take it? Well, suffice it to say, the prospect of assisting said houses does not fill me with joy.
Drillemont Wrote:..."Houses Fortemps and Haillenarte hereby formally advise that all restrictions on employing foreign sellswords be-" Hmph. These are naught more than the ill-conceived notions of a hopeless romantic and a naive lordling. House Durendaire would not even be in this position had not House Haillenarte failed to hold the Stone Vigil!
Nivie Wrote:Alas, he is not the only one to heap disdain upon House Haillenarte. Ever since we lost the Steel and Stone Vigils, we have been at the mercy of the other High Houses.
Bartelot de Haillenarte Wrote:Have we work for a weaver? No, lass, I'm afraid we've not got the gil for such now. But the way I hear it, House Durendaire's rollin' in the coin. Make your pitch to one of their guards. Mayhap they'll throw some custom your way.
Dyrstweitz Wrote:A hearty hail to you, adventurer. I am Dyrstweitz, son of Dyrstweitz. I serve House Dzemael, as did my father and his father before him. Like them, I have sworn a solemn oath to protect the count's lands and holdings from any and all that would do them harm. Originally designed to provide protection against air and land attacks from the Wyrmking's horde, construction on the Darkhold began several generations ago when Count Dzemael, fifty-third of his line and lord of House Dzemael - greatest of the four high houses of Ishgard - discovered a hidden network of caves while foxing near the Nail.
Do You Even String a Bow? Wrote:What started out as a simple sponsorship for an archery competition by the Congregation has turned into a grand affair as the High Houses caught wind with their natural instincts for rivalry. The contest has been rendered exclusive only to highborn archers, and will involve all forms of moving targets and dazzling displays of accuracy on chocoback. Quite a show will be had, which means an equally suitable prize must be given to the winner. I seek none but the finest carpenters to submit a bow design of their choosing to serve as the grand prize, and the carpenter of the winning bow shall be paid handsomely for it.
(Interesting thing of note about this levequest, is that its later revealed a bowmaiden, one of the daughters of the four Houses won the competition over the other male heirs.)
Persona non Gratin Wrote:I have been informed that House Haillenarte has agreed to have its contingents partake in joint training exercises with House Dzemael, and my hope is fixed that the supper that follows will allow for more amity among the two Houses. Finding a dish that would dull sharp tongues has proven difficult, but I am confident dhalmel gratin would suffice, with thick consistency of the Dzemael variety and game familiar to Rose Knights.
Recipe for Disaster (L) Wrote:What were expected to be joint drills in good faith among the knights of Haillenarte and Dzemael has manifested into measuring the others' strength and speed, with more men joining in by the day. Halone forbid if the nobility put more energy into slicing up dragons than boasting who has downed more of them. I can only hope that dinner will briefly hush the incessant churl-hurling─heaping servings of thick dhalmel gratin should keep them chewing for a while.
Dinner for Four Wrote:House Fortemps is preparing to host a banquet, and invitations must be delivered to the other High Houses. Assuming you will be unable to meet with the lords and ladies of each house, Torsefers asks that you deliver invitations to the guards standing watch at each house.
You speak with Bartelot at House Haillenarte and hand him the banquet invitation. He regretfully informs you that, although his lord would be pleased by the invitation, he has been kept busy in the wake of recent Dravanian assaults and matters concerning heretics. Move on to House Dzemael and deliver the next invitation.
You reach House Dzemael to find Jainelette standing guard outside. She tells you that her lord has been preoccupied with the restoration of Falcon's Nest and has little time for aught else. Nevertheless, she promises to see the invitation delivered. Proceed to House Durendaire to deliver the last invitation.
You deliver the invitation to Framoncis standing guard at House Durendaire, and he finds the proposed banquet to be suspect at best. He goes on to tell you that House Durendaire and House Fortemps are not on good terms. He agrees to deliver the invitation if only to prevent undue tension between the two houses. Report to Torsefers and inform him the invitations have been delivered.
You return to Torsefers empty-handed, and he is thankful for your assistance. He tells you that the four High Houses are descended from the heroes who helped establish Ishgard. Although they are a formidable alliance in the face of their Dravanian enemies, they are quick to turn on one another when seeking political clout. He warns you to be careful, as making new friends may also result in new enemies.
As far as Hyur nobility goes, it does seem to be scarce, though one such family shows up in the Weaver 50+ questline. They seem to have good standing with House Durendaire, and as such do not seem to be greatly discriminated against. But I've not leveled my weaver up very high yet so can't say much more.
The possibility of discrimination against Hyuran nobility seems plausible, especially ones who earned their nobility recently by killing a dragon or some other deed may cause jealousy in Elezen peers or Houses which thought they deserved the kill or whatever. But I can't offer much more than speculation on this.
There are a few instances in Heavensward side quests (Ayleth comes to mind) where some people will attempt to screw over their compatriots in order to achieve knighthood, but that doesn't necessarily seem to be entirely race based? I could be wrong, Ayleth is Hyuran and I think the noble in question was Elezen, so the race case could be argued.
A Noble Purpose Wrote:An unknown nobleman offered Ayleth power and status in exchange for the dragon tooth, but it was a trick. He stole the tooth and left Ayleth with nothing. Margyt assures her that despite not having status or social power, if they work together, they can bring about change in the Ishgardian society. Ayleth agrees to work together with Margyt to this end. Margyt asks you to talk to her back at the Convictory so she can continue the discussion in the safety of the camp.
Hope this helps! ^^; I know it's not very definitive!
Thank you all for your input! I have always been one for pushing lore, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't breaking it. The only danger I have now is making this backstory and then having the Devs release content that proves it false.
Again, thank you all for your help!
On one hand, it takes a certain kind of monumental stupidity to think it's a good idea to start killing eachother for marginal gains while collectively waging an existential war against an entire species of giant, flying, firebreathing monsters.
On the other hand, we're shown enough sour personalities in Ishgard that it's certainly plausible.
I've found myself in this conundrum once before - though thankfully it had more to do with mana addicted Elves that the plot of the game itself more than suited - However, I'd like to weigh in just a bit.
Roleplaying a plot filled with intrigue is something I don't see very often, wherein the characters -will- lie, cheat and push their way to the top - I would suggest anyone you start involving be informed ahead of time that your character is going to lie and do some shady under the table stuff ahead of time, as I've run into the issue of people accusing me of meta-gaming my own character by claiming that I should have mentioned he had lied earlier on to justify the disadvantaged situation they then found themselves IC. (How I'd do that, I don't know. Maybe I could buy a blue police box? I thought it apparent considering my character at the time was a well established politically savvy antagonist.) I say this if only to help you avoid unpleasantness down the road, and to be generally courteous to your fellow RPers.
The lore itself, at least as it is demonstrated during the main scenario quests throughout Coerthas as I've seen, doesn't do much to discredit the idea of pseudo-political power struggles between history's most debaucherous caste. I would suggest using the lore to set the boundaries and your own understanding of crime and punishment if you get caught IC to determine where you might progress from there (or perhaps, to establish a pretense to frame your would-be adversary.Â
)Â
When all else fails, a little google search for comparisons to the real world never hurts either, so long as you find a way to either keep it lore friendly, or revamp it that it would better suit Hydaelyn. If you get this idea off the ground, I'd love to see where you go with it and hope this takes you to some awesome stories. Feel free to add me (Stroud Forscythe/Char Lohengrin) if you would care for a few casual encounters with someone that does a character like this regularly - I personally look forward to seeing your character development.
But to answer the immediate question posed at the outset; It's never really been a stretch to make assassinations to one's own gain - So long as they don't conflict with any of the established characters, or other NPC's outside of those conceived of our own mind - I don't see much issue with that in and of itself so long as it isn't done in the fashion of 'A walked up to B and shot him in the face point blank in front of a thousand people he had never met before and then got away with it'. But as the above mentioned - Ishgard is full of some unpleasant voices, reinforcing my opinion on the matter.
Oh actually my character wouldn't be assassinating anyone, but rather the victim of such. There's still a lot to flesh out, but I am looking to start a plot to have him restore his house so to speak. I love redemption stories, and it is between friends, but I wanted to make sure from a lore POV that the chance would be plausible.
I might open it up later when more details are set, but we are still looking into the vast amount of information that is present.
Oh! I totally misunderstood. You should be right as rain then! ^.^ Good luck with it just the same though.
(10-07-2015, 04:42 AM)RiniKett Wrote: [ -> ]Oh actually my character wouldn't be assassinating anyone, but rather the victim of such. There's still a lot to flesh out, but I am looking to start a plot to have him restore his house so to speak.
Can't believe I didn't think of it earlier, but the Blacksmithing questline has a very similar pretense.
Forging Northward Wrote:Fremondain, you learn, is a steward in the service of Baroness Laurisse de Jervaint. She is the lone daughter of House Jervaint, a family that has fallen from its once-lofty position within Ishgardian society. Thus, while the need for a blacksmith is great, the most that Fremondain can offer for your services is a healthy dose of “honor.â€
If this meager offer has not dissuaded you, seek out the steward in the Jeweled Crozier in Ishgard. After arriving in Ishgard, you speak with Fremondain. He introduces Baroness Laurisse to you, and explains the cause of House Jervaint's destitution─Ser Jervaint, the lady's father, lost his knighthood. Now, however, Ishgard's upcoming grand tournament may afford the baroness an opportunity to restore the family's good name─the champion of this event will be offered the knighthood her father lost.
I think it said how he lost his knighthood, but I've forgotten. Will look up in more detail later.
(10-07-2015, 02:18 AM)Valeera Wrote: [ -> ]On one hand, it takes a certain kind of monumental stupidity to think it's a good idea to start killing eachother for marginal gains while collectively waging an existential war
But yet history has proven that humans do EXACTLY that, just not the fire breathing monster part.
So I think it would certainly be plausible for this to work.
(10-07-2015, 07:47 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [ -> ] (10-07-2015, 04:42 AM)RiniKett Wrote: [ -> ]Oh actually my character wouldn't be assassinating anyone, but rather the victim of such. There's still a lot to flesh out, but I am looking to start a plot to have him restore his house so to speak.
Can't believe I didn't think of it earlier, but the Blacksmithing questline has a very similar pretense.
Forging Northward Wrote:Fremondain, you learn, is a steward in the service of Baroness Laurisse de Jervaint. She is the lone daughter of House Jervaint, a family that has fallen from its once-lofty position within Ishgardian society. Thus, while the need for a blacksmith is great, the most that Fremondain can offer for your services is a healthy dose of “honor.â€
If this meager offer has not dissuaded you, seek out the steward in the Jeweled Crozier in Ishgard. After arriving in Ishgard, you speak with Fremondain. He introduces Baroness Laurisse to you, and explains the cause of House Jervaint's destitution─Ser Jervaint, the lady's father, lost his knighthood. Now, however, Ishgard's upcoming grand tournament may afford the baroness an opportunity to restore the family's good name─the champion of this event will be offered the knighthood her father lost.
I think it said how he lost his knighthood, but I've forgotten. Will look up in more detail later.
Beautiful Sounsyy, thank you again as always!
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